TEC 35 LARSON, CGC 9.2 ASKING $15K

[tth2]

Those are some interesting numbers...especially the GSXM 1!

I have to admit being pretty surprised. Other restored books that I sold had more predictable results, running from as low as 25% of OS to 50%, with most going in the 30s.

 

Just in case anyone was wondering, every single one of the restored books I listed above, plus an Avengers #4 (CGC 5.0, amateur color touch), came from that thief Gerry Ross, purchased back in 1986. Somehow an X-Men #2 that was part of this purchase managed to escape his magic markers.

[FFB]

Let’s put it to the Pepsi challenge: can anyone name even one (non-aberration) example where a restored book went for over Guide? Even pedigree, or super high grade? Based on my research, I cannot. Even when it comes to one of the rarest and most sought after Goldenage keys, like Adventure Comics #40. Let's increase the odds of a PLOD book going for over Guide by picking a pedigree that always sells for multiples - the Mile High. I believe the Mile High copy of Adventure #40 is a CGC9.4, but it has the PLOD. As we all know, key MHs in NM routinely sell for anywhere from 5-10 times Guide, and often more. The MH Adventure #40 did not sell for even full 9.2 Guide.

 

The Edgar Church copy of Adventure Comics #40 is a CGC 9.2 NM-. It sold in the February 2004 Heritage auction for $63,250. At the time, the Overstreet NM 9.4 price was $58,000. So this is one example of a restored 9.2 selling for above 9.4 guide price. Link to the auction.

[LearnedHand]

Great data – thanks!

 

Tim, because I don’t collect lower grade, I’m curious for your opinion (and anyone else’s) relative to whether you see your good fortune as normal – a buyer purchasing a restored book at virtually the same price as he could purchase it’s virgin counterpart (in fact, with eBay sale prices being inconsistent, maybe even paying more for the restored copy than its virgin counterpart). It doesn’t seem to make sense to me, but again, I really don’t know this area of the hobby.

 

And, when discussing market versus Guide, I think good examples to show clear distinctions between Guide and market are books that don’t conform to Guide prices. In your examples, you’ve stated that some lower grade restored books went for near Guide. Presumably, their virgin counterparts would sell at about Guide? If so, I’m not sure how your examples provide evidence of restored books going for a percentage of market versus Guide (unless we are now talking about books that have a market value consistent with Guide, in which case what are we discussing?).

[LearnedHand]

The Edgar Church copy of Adventure Comics #40 is a CGC 9.2 NM-. It sold in the February 2004 Heritage auction for $63,250. At the time, the Overstreet NM 9.4 price was $58,000. So this is one example of a restored 9.2 selling for above 9.4 guide price.

 

Scott,

 

I seem to remember this book being offered post-auction in the “Last Chance/Make an Offer” category (maybe I’m remembering the first time it was offered?). If so, did it actually sell to a third party? Remember, Heritage will propose a reserve at which the seller will not have to pay a buy-back fee if the book does not meet reserve. If the buyer sets a higher reserve (which is not met), the seller must pay the fee to get the unsold book back. I believe books in this category are reported as sales as, technically, they are. The seller must purchase them back (and, if I’m not mistaken, the reserve price (or the reserve plus the nominal buy-back fee) is listed as the sale price).

 

If this was truly a sale to a third party, my initial thought is – great! It may be heralding a new era where the level of restoration is now being evaluated on a rational basis.

 

That said (and taking it as a given that it truly was a sale), I would still be a little tenuous buying restored, as the rarest Goldenage DC key from the most reputed pedigree that always commands Guide multiples, in CGC9.2 (is this the highest graded copy?), may not be the best example of a market trend – even if I’m the one who brought it up. It may be the aberration.

 

By the way, I know my math skills aren’t the greatest, but my rule of thumb for 9.4 value (based on the price delta (as percentages) between Guide values for 6.0/8.0/9.0/9.2) is about 1.5X 9.2 Guide. If my math is correct, the MH Adventure #40 sold for slightly over 9.2 Guide, and nowhere near 9.4.

[FFB]

The Edgar Church copy of Adventure Comics #40 is a CGC 9.2 NM-. It sold in the February 2004 Heritage auction for $63,250. At the time, the Overstreet NM 9.4 price was $58,000. So this is one example of a restored 9.2 selling for above 9.4 guide price.

 

Scott,

 

I seem to remember this book being offered post-auction in the “Last Chance/Make an Offer” category (maybe I’m remembering the first time it was offered?). If so, did it actually sell to a third party? Remember, Heritage will propose a reserve at which the seller will not have to pay a buy-back fee if the book does not meet reserve. If the buyer sets a higher reserve (which is not met), the seller must pay the fee to get the unsold book back. I believe books in this category are reported as sales as, technically, they are. The seller must purchase them back (and, if I’m not mistaken, the reserve price (or the reserve plus the nominal buy-back fee) is listed as the sale price).

 

If this was truly a sale to a third party, my initial thought is – great! It may be heralding a new era where the level of restoration is now being evaluated on a rational basis.

 

That said (and taking it as a given that it truly was a sale), I would still be a little tenuous buying restored, as the rarest Goldenage DC key from the most reputed pedigree that always commands Guide multiples, in CGC9.2 (is this the highest graded copy?), may not be the best example of a market trend – even if I’m the one who brought it up. It may be the aberration.

 

By the way, I know my math skills aren’t the greatest, but my rule of thumb for 9.4 value (based on the price delta (as percentages) between Guide values for 6.0/8.0/9.0/9.2) is about 1.5X 9.2 Guide. If my math is correct, the MH Adventure #40 sold for slightly over 9.2 Guide, and nowhere near 9.4.

 

It shows up in GPAnalysis as a sale, and GPA confirms all Heritage sales as being actual sales before reporting them.

 

As for the book itself, I was clarifying some of the points you made about the grade and guide values (you had them reversed -- the book is a CGC 9.2 and the guide value was a NM 9.4 value at the time, not the new "9.2" high water mark that the guide uses now).

 

Personally, I think it was the purple label that killed this book, not the restoration. We discussed this before in a different thread, but the Edgar Church copy of More Fun #52 has a dot of color touch and a small amount of glue on the spine, just like the Adventure Comics #40. The amount of glue is apparently slightly less on the More Fun #52, but not much less. The More Fun #52 got the "blue label with resto notes," and reportedly sold for $150,000 in a private sale several years ago. Those books have similar guide values and should sell for roughly the same price IMO.

[Crowzilla]

There is a slight difference between the color touch on the Church More Fun #52 and the Adventure #40. On the More Fun, the color touch is along the spine while on the Adventure it is in the main part of the cover.

It was felt the color touch on the spine could easily be removed and not affect the over-all appeal of the book and was thus given the blue label, whereas this was not the case with the Adventure #40 (at least according to my conversation with Haspel).

 

That being said, it is the best copy of Adventure #40 known and worth every penny of the sales price.

[FFB]

There is a slight difference between the color touch on the Church More Fun #52 and the Adventure #40. On the More Fun, the color touch is along the spine while on the Adventure it is in the main part of the cover.

It was felt the color touch on the spine could easily be removed and not affect the over-all appeal of the book and was thus given the blue label, whereas this was not the case with the Adventure #40 (at least according to my conversation with Haspel).

 

That being said, it is the best copy of Adventure #40 known and worth every penny of the sales price.

 

Very interesting, Sean! I just spoke with Steve Borock and he confirms this. He says the CT on the Adventure 40 is in the cape and has a little bleed-through, unlike the CT on the More Fun #52. I am glad you brought this up because after reading the notes on the label, I incorrectly thought that the CT was on the spine.

 

Still, the Adv. 40 was a killer book before the CT and I don't think it should sell for less than it would if it had a grease pencil initial on the cover -- which is to say a lot more than $63K.

[tth2]

Tim, because I don’t collect lower grade, I’m curious for your opinion (and anyone else’s) relative to whether you see your good fortune as normal – a buyer purchasing a restored book at virtually the same price as he could purchase it’s virgin counterpart (in fact, with eBay sale prices being inconsistent, maybe even paying more for the restored copy than its virgin counterpart). It doesn’t seem to make sense to me, but again, I really don’t know this area of the hobby.

I don't think it's normal at all. I have no earthly idea why the buyers were willing to pay the prices they did. But, I learned long ago not to look gift horses in the mouth.

 

And, when discussing market versus Guide, I think good examples to show clear distinctions between Guide and market are books that don’t conform to Guide prices. In your examples, you’ve stated that some lower grade restored books went for near Guide. Presumably, their virgin counterparts would sell at about Guide?

I'm no expert on low grade prices either, but my understanding from folks here on the boards who traffic in them, such as Flying Donut and October, is that raw unrestored books in the kinds of grades these books were in, particularly common titles like X-Men, Avengers and GS X-Men #1, usually go for a significant discount (30-50%) to their Guide price. So if the Guide price for a 6.0 GS X-Men #1 is $200, then a raw unrestored copy would go for somewhere between $100 and $140. The fact that my copy got close to the Guide price would therefore represent a premium to the usual market price. Finally, slabbed low grade books, particularly for common issues, usually do not go for a premium over the Guide price, and often go for similar discounts to raw copies. So the sales I quoted above were apparent anomalies in lots of different ways.

 

If so, I’m not sure how your examples provide evidence of restored books going for a percentage of market versus Guide (unless we are now talking about books that have a market value consistent with Guide, in which case what are we discussing?).

Huh?

[Thegoldenage]

What is really sad is that books like the Larson Adventure 48 CGC 9.2 with slight restoration only went for 50% of guide 9.2 in the July 2004 Heritage Auction. Or the 40 in 8.5 slight went for 6900.00 in 2002 (8.0 guide was 26k). Maybe if these books pop up for sale again they will do better.

[Timulty]

It is going to take a while until restored, even slightly restored, match value with their guide prices. I believe it will happen but the paradigm upon which the hobby is based, much change. I believe, that this will occur in the next 20 years. More books will have to have work done on them to preserve/conserve them. When that happens, those who bought the restored comics on the cheap will come off looking like genii(spelling?plural?).

[tth2]

What is really sad is that books like the Larson Adventure 48 CGC 9.2 with slight restoration only went for 50% of guide 9.2 in the July 2004 Heritage Auction. Or the 40 in 8.5 slight went for 6900.00 in 2002 (8.0 guide was 26k). Maybe if these books pop up for sale again they will do better.

HG restored books get disproportionately punished, no doubt about it. But not surprising, either. HG collectors are by definition people who want unblemished copies, are willing to pay up to get them and thereby drive up the prices. Conversely, they will either be uninterested or relatively uninterested in a restored copy (which after all is a blemished copy that has been artificially made unblemished) and either not bid at all or bid in a much more restrained fashion. Contrast this with low grade collectors. If you're already okay with a book with lots of dings and creases and such, what's a bit of color touch or other work?

[Thegoldenage]

Agreed. I would have bought that Adventure 40 if I'd had the money at the time.

[tth2]

It is going to take a while until restored, even slightly restored, match value with their guide prices.

How about never, particularly for HG books.

[LearnedHand]

Zillatoy beat me to the punch! Serves me right for putting my babies to sleep and signing off the Boards for a few hours. The color touch on the MH Adventure #40 is in several small spots, in the cape area, and discussing this with Mark Haspel a few times (okay, I need an Adventure #40), it seems that the color touch would be quite difficult to remove. And if it were, the appearance of the book would suffer.

 

Thanks again for the clarifications Scott. I forgot that last year's top Guide grade was 9.4.

[Timulty]

It is going to take a while until restored, even slightly restored, match value with their guide prices.

How about never, particularly for HG books.

I beg to differ. I believe that will happen in the next 20 years. By then, you will see the percentages of HG GA, that have been restored or conserved rise dramatically. Granted there will be exceptions but I imagine those will not be the rule.

[LearnedHand]

HG restored books get disproportionately punished, no doubt about it. But not surprising, either. HG collectors are by definition people who want unblemished copies, are willing to pay up to get them and thereby drive up the prices. Conversely, they will either be uninterested or relatively uninterested in a restored copy (which after all is a blemished copy that has been artificially made unblemished) and either not bid at all or bid in a much more restrained fashion. Contrast this with low grade collectors. If you're already okay with a book with lots of dings and creases and such, what's a bit of color touch or other work?

 

Very, very well said

 

I collect high grade Goldenage, and as you can tell from some of my prior posts on the subject, your statements exemplify my perspective.

[october]

I'm no expert on low grade prices either, but my understanding from folks here on the boards who traffic in them, such as Flying Donut and October, is that raw unrestored books in the kinds of grades these books were in, particularly common titles like X-Men, Avengers and GS X-Men #1, usually go for a significant discount (30-50%) to their Guide price. So if the Guide price for a 6.0 GS X-Men #1 is $200, then a raw unrestored copy would go for somewhere between $100 and $140. The fact that my copy got close to the Guide price would therefore represent a premium to the usual market price. Finally, slabbed low grade books, particularly for common issues, usually do not go for a premium over the Guide price, and often go for similar discounts to raw copies. So the sales I quoted above were apparent anomalies in lots of different ways.

 

I wouldn't say I "traffic in low grades", but yeah, everything you said was about right.

[LearnedHand]

 

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It is going to take a while until restored, even slightly restored, match value with their guide prices.

 

 

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How about never, particularly for HG books.

 

 

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I beg to differ. I believe that will happen in the next 20 years. By then, you will see the percentages of HG GA, that have been restored or conserved rise dramatically. Granted there will be exceptions but I imagine those will not be the rule.

 

With all due respect, I agree with TTH2. Let's ensure, however, that we're all on the same page - is the statement that restored books will eventually be about equal in value to their unrestored counterparts?

 

If so, I'm calibrated to believe the following (remember, my comments are toward Goldenage high grade, as this is what I collect and know): unrestored high grade commands (and deserves) the price it does due to the unbelievable care invovled in allowing these books to look almost newstand fresh some 60 - 70 years later, in their natural, unadulterated state. You're getting every dollar's worth, as you will own something that has defied time, abuse, and the elements. When a restored book offers as much as an unrestored book (which it never can, by definition), it will parallel the price of its virgin counterpart.

[lou_fine]

It is going to take a while until restored, even slightly restored, match value with their guide prices.

How about never, particularly for HG books.

I beg to differ. I believe that will happen in the next 20 years. By then, you will see the percentages of HG GA, that have been restored or conserved rise dramatically. Granted there will be exceptions but I imagine those will not be the rule.

 

Interesting to see everybody's opinion on this topic. Here's my take on it.

 

I certainly can see prices for slightly restored books approaching guide prices, but only in those cases where unrestored prices for that particular book would be selling for a premium to guide. In other words, restored books can approach guide prices, but would NEVER EVER approach the full market price for unrestored copies of the same book.

 

Anybody in their right mind would pay more for a unrestored copy of a book as opposed to a restored copy of the same book.

[Aman619]

I dont want restored books in my collection, but I kinda like the analogy of a small removable spot of color touch to a corner crease or spine crack or two on an otherwise pristine Church-like copy. At some point, BOTH kinds of damage/flaws might be considered somewhat equal. But only on otherwise perfect books. The reasoning being both books have ONE small flawed area: one accidental, and one an overzealous act of madness.

 

of course books with many areas of CT or glue or pieces added etc etc would remain undesirable (to most).