Comics being Damaged inside CGC slabs 2 2

[NathanF]

I have a CGC 9.4 ASM 361 that's being damaged from within the slab itself. The bottom of the cover is developing little page tears that at first glance look similiar to spine ticks. Also there are pieces of plastic that have broken off from the slab somewhere and are now floating around in the slabb

Edited July 7 by NathanF
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[davidking623]

Did you buy the book or did you get it graded from cgc ?

[jimbo_7071]

A broken-off piece of plastic in a slab isn't unusual, but I'm not sure how edge tears could form in the slab without some kind of impact. Has the slab been dropped? Are you storing the slab flat as recommended? If a slab is stored standing on the bottom edge, then the bottom of the cover can become damaged slightly, but I've never seen it lead to tears like the ones I see on that book.

I could see that happening during shipment if the book was standing on edge in a shipping truck. One big bump or a series of small bumps could do it.

Sadly, the book is clearly not a 9.4 any longer.

Edited July 8 by jimbo_7071

[CGC Mike]

I am moving this out of the Home Video section.  

[LowGradeBronze]

The tears at the foot of the book look more like bindery in origin, from the gripper that pulls the cover stock through the printer. Almost always they are in the margin outside the printed area and when the book is trimmed to size they trimmed off. Every so often they occur within the finished print area. That's what these look like to me, in which case unrelated to the shards of plastic you refer to. Seeing the shards of plastic has now drawn your eye to these tears, maybe?

[GawkHawk]

Definitely look like gripper tears and if I'm not mistaken, those were a problem with this issue.  Mine has them as well.  Unreleated to the loose pieces in the case.

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/10/2024 at 6:51 AM, GawkHawk said:

Definitely look like gripper tears and if I'm not mistaken, those were a problem with this issue.  Mine has them as well.  Unreleated to the loose pieces in the case.

Does CGC overlook that defect on that issue? It's hard to imagine a book getting a 9.4 with those tears. I've had plenty of books busted down to 8.5 for one tiny tear.

[newshane]

On 7/10/2024 at 10:34 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Does CGC overlook that defect on that issue? It's hard to imagine a book getting a 9.4 with those tears. I've had plenty of books busted down to 8.5 for one tiny tear.

I think they do take into consideration any flaws that are commonly known to widely exist in an issue, but I could be mistaken. 

As mentioned before, this is a common problem with ASM 361. 

[lostboys]

On 7/10/2024 at 1:22 PM, newshane said:

I think they do take into consideration any flaws that are commonly known to widely exist in an issue, but I could be mistaken. 

As mentioned before, this is a common problem with ASM 361. 

 

Yep.

 

Mine is a 9.6, and although very tiny compared to other copies ive seen, it has the gripper tears.

[davidking623]

On 7/8/2024 at 7:26 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

A broken-off piece of plastic in a slab isn't unusual, but I'm not sure how edge tears could form in the slab without some kind of impact. Has the slab been dropped? Are you storing the slab flat as recommended? If a slab is stored standing on the bottom edge, then the bottom of the cover can become damaged slightly, but I've never seen it lead to tears like the ones I see on that book.

I could see that happening during shipment if the book was standing on edge in a shipping truck. One big bump or a series of small bumps could do it.

Sadly, the book is clearly not a 9.4 any longer.

Is there a discussion on this somewhere about CGC books being stored not upright ? I have books stored for over 20 years this way without issue is why I ask .

Thanks in advance !

[jimbo_7071]

On 7/10/2024 at 3:33 PM, davidking623 said:

Is there a discussion on this somewhere about CGC books being stored not upright ? I have books stored for over 20 years this way without issue is why I ask .

Thanks in advance !

There have been discussions about it, but finding them might be a challenge.

[Gaard]

On 7/8/2024 at 10:26 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

A broken-off piece of plastic in a slab isn't unusual

Pretty sad, huh?

[newshane]

On 7/10/2024 at 2:33 PM, davidking623 said:

Is there a discussion on this somewhere about CGC books being stored not upright ? I have books stored for over 20 years this way without issue is why I ask .

Thanks in advance !

Yes. I did an extensive series on storage. 

I was always hoping it would get pinned. 

Let me see if I can dig it up via the search function.  

[newshane]

IDEAL SLAB STORAGE METHODS

@CGC Mike I think this old post would be helpful to a lot of people if you'd care to pin it (or not). 

[newshane]

On 7/10/2024 at 2:33 PM, davidking623 said:

Is there a discussion on this somewhere about CGC books being stored not upright ?

If you don't feel like reading my entire "treatise" then here is an excerpt. Please note that it's been a long time since I wrote this: 

Should I store my slabs flat, upright, or spine-down?

 

The CGC started encapsulating comics after the turn of the millennium, so the very oldest "slabs" are now around 14 years-old. The truth is that we have little to no true empirical data on the subject. In short, we still don't have enough evidence to suggest that one method is better than another. However, we do know quite a bit about what happens to raw comics overtime and can make guesses based on these observations.

 

Most of our raw collections are probably bagged and boarded and stored vertically in cardboard boxes or filing cabinets. I've personally never witnesses a bagged and boarded comic suffer direct damage from being stored upright, as long as the comics were packed snugly enough to prevent them from falling over inside of the box.

 

So is it safe to assume that our slabs are safe from damage if they are stored vertically and upright?

 

The jury is still out on this one. I don't seek to make a definitive declaration on the matter; as I stated earlier, it's just too early to really tell. Instead, I hope to offer information from various sources.

 

Some sources claim that long-term upright storage will allow gravity to exert downward pressure on the staples of a comic. Other experts, like Joey at CFP Comics and Services, believe that comics covers with an overhang are especially susceptible to the long-term effects of gravity. As a result, some people suggest storing slabs flat. Others recommend stashing them away with the spine of the comic facing the floor.

 

So what does the CGC say about the matter?

 

In short, they support the traditional vertical storage method:

 

"We suggest that all graded comics be stored as you would any other comic, standing upright in an archival safe comic box in a cool dry place."

 

- Wm. Eric Downton, CGC Receiving Manager

 

What do professional book conservationists, libraries, and museums say about it?

 

Well, it depends on the size of the book you are storing.

 

To avoid damaging bindings, books need to be shelved upright and supported. House very large or heavy volumes lying flat, because upright storage can result in heavy books pulling away from their bindings.

 

- Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

They also point out that storing books with the spine-down is far, far preferable to storing them with the spine-up, although they seem to suggest spine-down storage is preferable only if "moving or rearranging the books is not possible."

 

...store volumes with the spine down (storing a book with the spine up may cause the text to pull out of the binding due to its weight).

 

- Northeast Document Conservation Center

 

The expert consensus seems to be that it's perfectly acceptable to vertically store comics and slabs in the upright position. It's also okay to store slabs flat, because the hard outer well, in concert with the inner well, prevents the type of spine-roll that can sometimes occur when comics are stored flat and in vertical stacks. The following summary from panelology.com is so well-written that I've decided to quote it below verbatim:

 

The Northeast Document Conservation Center (a non-profit regional conservation center in the United States, founded in 1973 and counting amongst its clients the Boston Public Library and Harvard University) advised that although vertical storage in office files or in upright flip-top archival document storage boxes is acceptable for legal-sized or smaller documents, any objects larger than 15" x 9" should be stored flat.

 

This is due to the pull forces which documents stored in an upright position are subject to, and it is safe to assume that what is best practice for larger size documents works out well for comic books as well.

 

So what's the final word?

 

During my research, I discovered that most sources, including the CGC itself, recommend the traditional method of storing comics, and slabs, upright. I found nothing to suggest that a slab would be harmed by storing them flat, although I'd be careful about how high I piled my stacks. It's important to keep in mind that the slabs towards the bottom of the stack will bear a majority of the loaded weight. I've also discovered nothing wrong with storing slabs spine-down, although I still struggle with the logic used by proponents of this method. Yes, the spine is the strongest part of the book and could probably do a better job at resisting the effects of gravity over-time. But isn't it still susceptible to "gravitational" damage, assuming that such a thing really happens in the first place? I think it's too early to tell.

 

Bottom line? There is probably nothing wrong with storing the slabs upright, flat, or spine-down. Whichever method you choose, I think it's more important to handle and store them carefully. The idea is to handle them as little as possible and to protect them from jostling or any sort of vibration.

 

[davidking623]

Thanks a lot for this I really did not know for sure and I feel the way I have stored them has been excellent . Thanks !

[CGC Mike]

On 7/10/2024 at 5:08 PM, newshane said:

IDEAL SLAB STORAGE METHODS

@CGC Mike I think this old post would be helpful to a lot of people if you'd care to pin it (or not). 

I have pinned it at the top of the newbie section.  We have quite a few pinned threads in comics general already.  There's not many pinned in the newbie area so, the thread sticks out pretty good.  

[jimbo_7071]

This is what can happen when you store or transport a book spine up. The damage occurred before I bought the book, but it happened in the old slab. Basically, the cover stayed in place, but the interior pulled away from it at the staple, causing that tear.

@newshane, I'll have to read your entire thread. I do recall some recommendations to store the books flat; it is probably more important for heavier GA books, which could pull on the staples much more than these thin, light moderns.

 

 

[davidking623]

Interesting for sure and sad ! Did you own this book before sending it to Heritage ? Lets face it though when a book is being transported by Fedex ,UPS ,USPS or some other shipping company , there is more chance for something like this to occur , a hard hit , drop , kick , fumble fingers , elbowed , I think we get the drift , oh and don't forget about the ole hail mary ., Basically I believe a lot more can go wrong when you ship as opposed to how you store it Although I do concur it probably is not a bad idea to store flat with a heavier golden age or generally what appears to be a heavier book .I guess I am still learning ., Thanks !

[GawkHawk]

Here's the gripper tears on my book.  It came back a 9.8.