Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[Prince Namor]

 

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

Your point above is a PERFECT example of how you stretch the 'facts' and twist the narrative in your direction without any actual substantiation to the accusation, call it 'truth' and call Stan a liar.

And then you say stuff like this:

 

The two quotes above are addressing entirely different things and you're conflating them to be about the same thing.

They're not. 

Uh, yes they are. Both are about the creation of Marvel's Thor character.

What confused you there?

One is how Kirby saw it, and the other is how Lee made up a lie.

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

I've already shown how you did it with the Bullpen discussion, where you sidestepped the actual point of the discussion about Stan Lee was corralling and creating a Bullpen (whether virtual or in person didn't matter -

That's not what you originally said. 

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

it had intrinsic value in making the Marvel brand great) and you created a new vector of discussion on when/where the physical Bullpen existed - something nobody was discussing. All to discredit Stan when it wasn't warranted. 

In a discussion about Stan Lee's 'Lies'... which you automatically lose, because 'Stan Lee Lied'... his lies will be brought up.

The main point of the 'gathering talent' belief you have is forgetting how many greats Lee ran off.

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

The Thor discussion above is also a great example of how "facts" alone don't compromise "truth".

To discover the truth, you need to assemble the facts in an intellectually honest fashion. Each fact is really just a clue pointing in a direction and those clues need to be added up to come to the truth. The truth is a conclusion you reach when all the evidence has been weighed fairly. Objectively.

Two clues don't make a conclusion and cherry picking or slanting interpretations doesn't provide the truth. 

So unless there is more to add to those two quotes above, they prove nothing about the point you're trying to make, and I'll explain why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Those two quotes are discussing two entirely different things and there is this vast ocean of possible interpretation between them. 

Stan isn't talking about Thor's look. he's talking about Thor's hammer and flight.

Meanwhile, Jack is talking about how Thor LOOKS. 

The two aren't connected. 

Let me articulate to make my point:

Everyone knows from grade school up, if you've dabbled in Norse Mythology AT ALL that Thor has a hammer. Even non-comic people know it. It's pretty much common knowledge unless you've been living under a rock and have never heard of Norse mythology at all. 

So by extension, it's preposterous to assume Stan is taking credit for giving Thor a hammer, especially when EVERY depiction in comics, which Stan and everyone around Stan would be aware of, has understood that Thor has a hammer!!

The assertion that Stan Lee thought up Thor's hammer is akin to Stan Lee taking credit for Superman's cape.

Yeah except Lee writes 

 

“As all true devotees know, every superhero needs a special quality, a special weapon of some sort… and then I realized I could solve both problems (weapon and flying) at once - with a hammer!”

LOL. He IS literally saying he SOLVED the problem by giving him a special weapon - a HAMMER.

He IS saying it.

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

So there must be something else he's talking about...and he is: He also mentions flight. 

Did any of the previous iterations of Kirby's Thor contain flight?

Did the Thor in JIM #52 have the power of flight?

Did the Thor in Adventure Comics #75 have the power of flight?

I don't have the stories in front of me, and maybe someone else can confirm, but considering those previous iterations drawn by Kirby look like Vikings, and they're on ships, it doesn't seem that way. Thor wouldn't need a ship if he could fly. 

This means Stan Lee is saying in this quote, that he thought of using the hammer as giving Thor the ability to fly and combining it with his hammer.  

Well, how EFFING BRILLIANT was that idea? 

Flight is literally what made the character great. 

Without this power of flight, you don't have Thor swinging the hammer on the glorious cover of JIM #83 in an impressive display of power. You have JIM #52 or Adventure #75 Thor - BORING!

You don't have the fluid story movement or art, with lithe Thor flying from one location to another. You have a lumbering brute with physical strength walking from panel to panel.

You don't have the cover of JIM #89 which is considered one of the best covers of the 1960's by Marvel zombies. 

It's these sort of ideas and characterizations that Stan gave to characters that made them special and stand out. 

 

Yeah, I know. Stan Lee probably only did it over a 5 minute plot meeting.

Glen Danzig said he wrote his biggest hit "Mother" in 15 mins. How much should a genius be paid per minute?

 

Now if I'm wrong, and there's a quote where Kirby states that he gave Thor flight, well that's a different discussion but those 'facts' should be included in the discussion to make your point. 

But it's still a discussion that needs to take place. 

Stan Lee signed none of the first three Thor stories.

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

----------------------------------------------

I've had these debates with you for ages on a variety of topics and they always turn out the same way. 

You don't stay on point, you cherry pick information that's either out of context or incomplete, you redirect the conversation and you don't use the same scrutiny for your own "facts" that you do for those that disagree with you, and it's this intellectual dishonesty that pervades every discussion, which is the exact same thing every person who has disagreed with your conclusions have stated - both people who have read your book and those that haven't. 

Your subjective reasoning and malicious intent comes through in everything you write. And frankly, I wish I didn't need to write this or point it out, but it must be pointed out when you're trying to change history to suit your own subjective interpretation. 

Keep ramming it down people's throats. 

--------------------------------------------

Personal attack. Has nothing to do with the topic.

On 10/5/2024 at 4:03 AM, VintageComics said:

Side note: Who was really responsible for using Primary colors in the final costume?

Was it Kirby or Lee? I ask because I've often written on these forums that I believe Primary colors are far more important than people realize, and that heroes that use primary colors for costumes are among the most popular heroes in comics. 

Mostly Stan Goldberg. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:14 AM, VintageComics said:

 

On 10/5/2024 at 5:14 AM, VintageComics said:

Now you're again sidestepping the discussion, which was who was responsible for Thor's attributes, and shifting it to the stories and concluding that because Stan didn't sign them he had nothing to do with creating Thor. 

So are you saying Stan Lee had NOTHING to do with the creation of Thor? Zilch? Nada?

And you're basing it on the fact that he didn't sign the stories?

What am I sidestepping?

Stan Lee didn't sign the stories. Stan Lee was all about the credit and the pay. He didn't sign the stories.

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 10/4/2024 at 5:03 PM, VintageComics said:

Your point above is a PERFECT example of how you stretch the 'facts' and twist the narrative in your direction without any actual substantiation to the accusation, call it 'truth' and call Stan a liar.

And then you say stuff like this:

 

The two quotes above are addressing entirely different things and you're conflating them to be about the same thing.

They're not. 

Uh, yes they are. Both are about the creation of Marvel's Thor character.

What confused you there?

Kirby is talking about how he envisioned Thor. No mention of hammer. No mention of flight. Just a vague recollection that he did it "his way".

Lee is talking about the Hammer and flight specifically. 

You're making the assumption that Kirby is alluding to hammer and flight in his quote without mentioning it, and you're making the assumption Stan Lee is taking credit for the vague things in Jack's quote, but neither is apparent from either quote.

You can't call this out as a contradiction because they don't contradict each other.

In a court of law, it wouldn't fly. 

What is confusing is that you're connecting two quotes that aren't objectively connected and picking one side as proof that the other is lying. 

That's not how logic works. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:18 AM, VintageComics said:

Let me rephrase that, then.

So are you asserting that Kirby is responsible for ALMOST everything about Thor?

No.

On 10/5/2024 at 5:18 AM, VintageComics said:

Or, to be more clear, can you clarify what Kirby is and isn't responsible for?

Don't know.

On 10/5/2024 at 5:18 AM, VintageComics said:

And if so, did Kirby steal the idea from someone else and credit it to himself, just as you assert Stan Lee does regularly?

'ASSERT Stan Lee does regularly?'

LOL.

You think I need to ASSERT that Stan Lee has stolen credit (and pay) from others???

 

It's AGREED upon, that creative people borrow, steal, get ideas from others, etc. in the creation process.

What Lee did is a different kind of theft.

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:21 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 10/4/2024 at 6:14 PM, VintageComics said:

Now you're again sidestepping the discussion, which was who was responsible for Thor's attributes, and shifting it to the stories and concluding that because Stan didn't sign them he had nothing to do with creating Thor. 

So are you saying Stan Lee had NOTHING to do with the creation of Thor? Zilch? Nada?

And you're basing it on the fact that he didn't sign the stories?

What am I sidestepping?

Stan Lee didn't sign the stories. Stan Lee was all about the credit and the pay. He didn't sign the stories.

Again, Stan not signing the stories has no bearing on who gave Thor which attributes at his creation. 

That alone doesn't prove Stan didn't give Thor flight, and it doesn't disprove Stan's quote from Origins. 

They're two parallel discussions that don't intersect. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:25 AM, VintageComics said:

Kirby is talking about how he envisioned Thor. No mention of hammer. No mention of flight. Just a vague recollection that he did it "his way".

Lee is talking about the Hammer and flight specifically. 

You're making the assumption that Kirby is alluding to hammer and flight in his quote without mentioning it, and you're making the assumption Stan Lee is taking credit for the vague things in Jack's quote, but neither is apparent from either quote.

You can't call this out as a contradiction because they don't contradict each other.

In a court of law, it wouldn't fly. 

What is confusing is that you're connecting two quotes that aren't objectively connected and picking one side as proof that the other is lying. 

That's not how logic works. 

You're just reaching.

None of this is smart. It's just reaching. It's embarrassing.

You're the one conflating and cherry picking and MAKING UP things.

Bottom Line: Lee didn't sign the stories.

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 10/4/2024 at 6:18 PM, VintageComics said:

Or, to be more clear, can you clarify what Kirby is and isn't responsible for?

Don't know.

Well, then, there's the truth. 

Boom. 

And since you don't know what Kirby is and isn't responsible for regarding Thor, and the only record we have of Thor's attribute of flight is the one recollected by Stan, then Stan's quote from Origins can't be proven to be a lie based on what you've provided so far, can it?

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:28 PM, Prince Namor said:

You're just reaching.

My logic is irrefutable, and if you can't discredit the logic then there is no other alternative. 

Edited October 4 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:27 AM, VintageComics said:

Again, Stan not signing the stories has no bearing on who gave Thor which attributes at his creation. 

That alone doesn't prove Stan didn't give Thor flight, and it doesn't disprove Stan's quote from Origins. 

They're two parallel discussions that don't intersect. 

If Lee had come up with the idea, he would have signed the story. FACT.

This is a guy who signed his name to Paper Doll pages in Millie the Model.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 

Lee's whole CAREER is tied up in what I'm claiming.

You're giving him the benefit of the doubt over a sentence in book filled with multiple lies. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:29 AM, VintageComics said:

Well, then, there's the truth. 

Boom. 

And since you don't know what Kirby is and isn't responsible for regarding Thor, and the only record we have of Thor's attribute of flight is the one recollected by Stan, then Stan's quote from Origins can't be proven to be a lie based on what you've provided so far, can it?

Uh... the FIRST attribute we have is Kirby writing and drawing it in Journey Into Mystery #83 - a story NOT signed by Stan Lee.

So, you may have missed 'the facts' being created 11 years before Lee made that claim. 

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:31 PM, Prince Namor said:

If Lee had come up with the idea, he would have signed the story. FACT.

This is a guy who signed his name to Paper Doll pages in Millie the Model.

You have no idea what you're talking about. 

Lee's whole CAREER is tied up in what I'm claiming.

You're giving him the benefit of the doubt over a sentence in book filled with multiple lies. 

I'm asking you to prove that Stan Lee lied in that quote about flight from Origins with actual "truth" and "facts" which you say you have, but you haven't done it yet.

What you call "truth" that you want to ram down the throats of everyone that disagrees is basically just an interpretive opinion on your part. 

And you can't convict on that. At least not yet, thankfully. 

 

 

[VintageComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:33 PM, Prince Namor said:

Uh... the FIRST attribute we have is Kirby writing and drawing it in Journey Into Mystery #83 - a story NOT signed by Stan Lee.

So, you may have missed 'the facts' being created 11 years before Lee made that claim. 

You're implying Kirby just started drawing a story without talking to Stan Lee about it?

Did Stan Lee even know that this story was going to be published?

Of course he did. And if he knew it was going to be published, they would have discussed it beforehand. 

And if they discussed it beforehand, Stan would have had input. 

And if Stan had input, there's nothing yet provided to contradict that Stan's quote from Origins is a lie - even if flight was the only thing he gave to Thor. 

That's how a logic chain works.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:35 AM, VintageComics said:

I'm asking you to prove that Stan Lee lied in that quote about flight from Origins with actual "truth" and "facts" which you say you have, but you haven't done it yet.

Prove he DID. It's just a silly claim.

"I gave Todd McFarlane the idea for the cover of Spider-man #1 (1990)"

Prove I didn't.

Duh.

On 10/5/2024 at 5:35 AM, VintageComics said:

What you call "truth" that you want to ram down the throats of everyone that disagrees is basically just an interpretive opinion on your part. 

And you can't convict on that. At least not yet, thankfully. 

The proof is in the story that Jack Kirby WROTE and did the pencils for. (JIM #83)

He SHOWS you on the page he actually penciled. 

There is no writer listed. Because Kirby wrote it, the same as he did for the last 30 issues of Journey Into Mystery that Lee didn't sign either.

THAT is not DEFINITIVE proof, but it's closer in proof than what Lee has, which is just a claim, 11-12 years after the fact, motivated by corporate need to own the creativity of others and/or his own personal fame.

I can show Kirby DID it. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:42 AM, VintageComics said:

You're implying Kirby just started drawing a story without talking to Stan Lee about it?

Did Stan Lee even know that this story was going to be published?

Of course he did. And if he knew it was going to be published, they would have discussed it beforehand. 

And if they discussed it beforehand, Stan would have had input. 

And if Stan had input, there's nothing yet provided to contradict that Stan's quote from Origins is a lie - even if flight was the only thing he gave to Thor. 

That's how a logic chain works.

If Stan had given his ideas on Thor, he would have signed the story.

It's his whole CAREER. It's what he did his WHOLE CAREER.

[jimjum12]

This was Kirby's Thor, that Lee edited and dialogued to keep it from being almost an exact duplicate of previously published work for other companies, like Kirby's concept of Spiderman was. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED #16 (1957)

Edited October 4 by jimjum12

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 12:24 AM, lostboys said:

Shouldnt you be working on your next best seller?

Dont wanna be known as the Vanilla Ice of comic book - books.

All I hear is:

[lostboys]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

All I hear is:

Is this the first book you've written?

 

 

 

[Aman619]

sob... choke... sniff.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 10/4/2024 at 2:16 PM, VintageComics said:

I'm done with this discussion.

[KCOComics]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:16 PM, lostboys said:

Is this the first book you've written?

 

 

 

I can appreciate disagreeing with his point of view. 

I do and I've voiced that. 

But don't rip his book which i presume you haven't read.  Writing a book isn't an easy endeavor.  

As much as I disagree with Chaz, I have a great appreciation for the work he put into his book.