Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[Aman619]

   On 10/4/2024 at 5:16 PM,  VintageComics said:

I'm done with this discussion.

 

where have I heard this before?  

There'll be lots more to comment on til this thing goes away.  What's funny is he was just starting to chip away.  Stan NOT signing something is NOW proof that he had nothing to do with it.  AND at the sane time, STAN willfully signs 1000s of things he had nothing to do with?  which is it? or is Chaz guessing?  drawing conclusion out of the air that work for his thesis.  Getting a bit frustrated at being questioned after all that research?  will he next talk about the strawberries Stan stole from the fridge... and we will have a Mutiny in this court marshall of Stan Lee.

just having fun.  theres too little of it I this thing.

Edited October 4 by Aman619

[Prince Namor]

   On 10/5/2024 at 4:16 AM,  VintageComics said:

I'm done with this discussion.

 

On 10/5/2024 at 6:24 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

I mean literally its TRUE, just not in how he meant it.

[PreHero]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:27 PM, VintageComics said:

Again, Stan not signing the stories has no bearing on who gave Thor which attributes at his creation. 

That alone doesn't prove Stan didn't give Thor flight, and it doesn't disprove Stan's quote from Origins. 

They're two parallel discussions that don't intersect. 

Appears Marvel’s Thor is pretty much a direct copy of Fox's Thor in Weird Comics #1 (1940):

• Thor has hammer/helmet/cape/blonde hair
• Thor flies
• Thor allows a human to assume form and powers of Thor (Grant Farrel vs Don Blake)
• Grant has crush on a girl (Glenda vs Jane Nelson/Foster) who wants Grant/Don to be more “adventurous”.

Not sure if it was Stan and/or Jack who lifted Thor’s costume, powers, characters and love triangle from Weird Comics #1.

Edited October 4 by PreHero
WC #1 splash from comicbookplus.com

[sfcityduck]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:45 PM, PreHero said:

Appears Marvel’s Thor is pretty much a direct copy of Fox's Thor in Weird Comics #1 (1940):

• Thor has hammer/helmet/cape/blonde hair
• Thor flies
• Thor allows a human to assume form and powers of Thor (Grant Farrel vs Don Blake)
• Grant has crush on a girl (Glenda vs Jane Nelson/Foster) who wants Grant/Don to be more “adventurous”.

Not sure if it was Stan and/or Jack who lifted Thor’s costume, powers, characters and love triangle from Weird Comics #1.

 

Jack worked for Fox. Stan never did.

But the love triangle is a trope of superhero comics that started with Superman/Clark Kent/Lois Lane at least. So that could have been Stan or Jack as no one can claim ignorance of that one.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 6:45 AM, PreHero said:

Appears Marvel’s Thor is pretty much a direct copy of Fox's Thor in Weird Comics #1 (1940):

• Thor has hammer/helmet/cape/blonde hair
• Thor flies
• Thor allows a human to assume form and powers of Thor (Grant Farrel vs Don Blake)
• Grant has crush on a girl (Glenda vs Jane Nelson/Foster) who wants Grant/Don to be more “adventurous”.

Not sure if it was Stan and/or Jack who lifted Thor’s costume, powers, characters and love triangle from Weird Comics #1.

No one's claiming ideas haven't been borrowed from other sources.

Stan Lee appears to be claiming he came up with those ideas himself.

[jimjum12]

On 10/4/2024 at 8:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

Stan Lee appears to be claiming he came up with those ideas himself.

...and Kirby. At least.

Like the Jerry Lee Lewis song, "Whole Lotta Lyin' Goin On."

GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Iconic1s]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:42 PM, VintageComics said:

if

 

On 10/4/2024 at 5:42 PM, VintageComics said:

if

 

On 10/4/2024 at 5:42 PM, VintageComics said:

even if

 

On 10/4/2024 at 5:42 PM, VintageComics said:

That's how a logic chain works.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/5/2024 at 7:37 AM, jimjum12 said:

...and Kirby. At least.

Like the Jerry Lee Lewis song, "Whole Lotta Lyin' Goin On."

GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Words mean something.

Kirby: "I researched. I kind of did my version of it."

Lee: "I could solve"

[jimjum12]

On 10/4/2024 at 8:50 PM, Prince Namor said:

Words mean something.

Kirby: "I researched. I kind of did my version of it."

Lee: "I could solve"

 

I'm saying this as a friend, but all the hair splitting will become counterproductive. I've known you a while, not like we've shared hookers and hooch, but enough to know that you didn't just one day melt down and embrace the madness. I'll read the book, and you should have enough faith in your work to allow it to represent you ... leave the emotion out of it. I'm sure my feelings will be hurt by it a little. Creativity is ego driven, often love-hate, thus a past tense for Lee and Kirby, Simon and Garfunkel, Lennon and McCartney, and so on. So what, if the sum was greater than the parts, the force of ego was too destructive. Live long and prosper, Brother. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I don't tell this to everyone, but I was Stan's Pool Boy, and I watched him dialog ALL those books. His favorite drink was a special of mine called a S.O.Blue ... made like a Long Island Ice Tea. It consisted of Blue Curacao, 151, and Jose Cuervo Gold. NO mixer. He was quite comical until the puking began. I had to clean it up. The help always gets the shaft, it's the American way. 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:08 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

Kirby had a LONG history of writing heroic characters using different means to change into their alter ego.

Lee had almost none, and certainly none over the last 12 years before the FF.

But give HIM the benefit of the doubt? LOL.

Classic. 

Anyone alive in comics in the early 1960s could have come up with "heroic characters using different means to change into their alter ego" because it was a trope since Captain Marvel appeared in a flash of lightening (and no Kirby did not create Captain Marvel or even his first solo comic and gets no credit for Captain Marvel selling millions of issues - LOL!). Heck, even Superman had to change into a costume and take off his glasses. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:50 PM, Prince Namor said:

Words mean something.

Kirby: "I researched. I kind of did my version of it."

Lee: "I could solve"

 

Here's some more words from Kirby's infamous 1989 interview by Groth:

Quote

 

GROTH: Who came up with the name “Fantastic Four”?

KIRBY: I did. All right? I came up with all those names. I came up with Thor because I’ve always been a history buff. I know all about Thor and Balder and Mjolnir, the hammer. Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me. I loved it in high school and I loved it in my pre-high school days. It was the thing that kept my mind off the general poverty in the area. When I went to school that’s what kept me in school — it wasn’t mathematics and it wasn’t geography; it was history.

 

"Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me." He's got to be kidding. Lots of kids read Norse mythology in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. We're not talking PhD "research" here. This is like reading Robin Hood, or Greek Mythology, or King Arthur books. It's not "research" of "history," its reading adventure stories.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:10 PM, jimjum12 said:

y melt down and embrace the madness

 

On 10/4/2024 at 6:10 PM, jimjum12 said:

leave the emotion out of it.

[jimjum12]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:30 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

Just trying to help him to not shoot holes in his own boat. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

"Jane says" - great song. Also a great poster on the old TCJ boards who observed:

[Begin Quote]

Jane10 years ago

There are numerous problems with trying to use the origin of Thor as an argument for Kirby being the sole creator. (And I'm not saying that Kirby wasn't…I'm just looking at the facts).

Firstly, I'm in my fifties now and – so far as I can remember – Thor has always been reasonably well known as a mythological figure. After all, as all schoolchildren know, Thursday is named after him. If you were going to choose a god as a super-hero there was a pretty reasonable chance you'd choose Thor.

In the quote above it mentions Stan as saying 'Norse mythology always turned me on." Nothing about this is suspect, since Norse mythology (along with Greek mythology) have traditionally been reasonably well-known over the generations (helped by the link to the naming of weekdays of course).

Another interesting observation…there is very little of Norse mythology in the early Thor stories. This only becomes more prominent later, correlating with various statements by Lee about Kirby becoming the dominant plotter as time went on.

As for "proof that Lee is lying"…well, failure to recall something accurately after several decades is no sin. The creation of Thor was likely the result of 'another day at the office' years ago…not exactly a life-defining event…so it is hardly surprising that related memories may change, be contradictory or just plain wrong.

[End Quote]

Jane also says:

[Begin Quote]

 

Jane10 years ago

Consider this quote from Jack Kirby in 1969 (printed in Nostalgia Journal nov/dec 1976), when asked who was responsible for various aspects of the Thor strip, him or Lee:

"Both of us in a way. I researched it and gave my version of it, and Stan gave his version of it. Stan humanized it in a way where, for instance, I might be concerned about Thor's relation to the other gods. I might bring up a Ulik or I might bring something out of the wild blue yonder…And Stan would come down to Earth and find Thor's relationship with Earth people"

To these quotes from the early 1960s…from Jack Kirby Collector 54:
"An idea can come from me, it can come from Stan, it can come from a reader…"
"We'll build a plot around that type of story. I feel that Stan is very wise in looking over letters from readers and keeping tabs on the progress that the character is making."

Yes…they all correspond exactly with Lee's description of the Marvel method. 

[End Quote]

 

Edited October 5 by sfcityduck

[ganni]

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth......

[jimjum12]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:40 PM, ganni said:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth......

Or an incredibly well-crafted lie  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

Is this the origin of Stan Lee Lies? A message board battle in which "Jane" takes on unabashed Kirby fans who are putting up a pretence of being balanced. 

In contrast, "Jane" is really balanced. She offers up well-researched and balanced views on this issue. It's a breath of fresh air and a great antidote to the case made by the Kirby fans here.

[Begin Quote]

An example: in his Origins of Marvel Comics Stan talks about the Hulk being created as a result of the popularity of the Fantastic Four…and most notably the Thing. Essentially Marvel tried to duplicate the Thing's success with another monster…with the acknowledged influence of Jeckyll/Hyde and Frankenstein's monster. This was written in the early 1970s…so memories were presumably fresher. And it makes a lot of sense.

Compare this to a [1989] Kirby interview [published] in the 1990 Comics Journal interview, when Kirby says he was inspired to create the Hulk after seeing a woman lift a car in desperation to save a child. This sounds odd for a number of reasons. In the early issues Banner's change had nothing to do with stress/desperation…the change happened at night. The lifting of the car sounds more like it came from the Hulk TV show (in the pilot the scenario of people lifting cars to help others is referenced a couple of times…and the opening credits always showed the Hulk toppling one over).

In fact, I may be wrong, but I think the first mention of stress as causing the Hulk's change was in a Lee/Ayers story (Tales to Astonish 59 ).

Does this mean Kirby was lying, and that he didn't create the Hulk? I don't think so. Even Lee, in his Origins book, describes giving Kirby a pretty general idea of what he was looking for…giving Kirby plenty of scope to have come up with some of the fundamental aspects of the character. But who really knows?

[End Quote]

Maybe I should not be surprised that the author of this thread was on the opposite side from Jane back then, posting many of the same themes that he continues to assert today. Sort of reinforces to me the impression I get from the pages from the books that have been posted. This book is just a continuation of message board wars. A "one-sided prosecution," not as PN sometimes professes a balanced look.

Edited October 5 by sfcityduck

[PreHero]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

No one's claiming ideas haven't been borrowed from other sources.

Stan Lee appears to be claiming he came up with those ideas himself.

Neither am I - just sharing info.  Suspect 90% of comics are borrowed from other sources - which most creators freely acknowledge.

Fact is almost the exact same character was published 22 yrs before JIM #83.  Found no proof that either Stan or Jack copied from this character (seems to go beyond borrowing to me), but does introduce doubt about both Stan and Jack claims.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/5/2024 at 2:26 AM, sfcityduck said:

Here's some more words from Kirby's infamous 1989 interview by Groth:

"Nobody ever bothered with that stuff except me." He's got to be kidding. Lots of kids read Norse mythology in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. We're not talking PhD "research" here. This is like reading Robin Hood, or Greek Mythology, or King Arthur books. It's not "research" of "history," its reading adventure stories.

 

Comic books themselves have been described as ‘modern mythology’ stories.

Continuing the same process.

I read one book on classical world mythology written in a way which described the deities in a vivid manner which made it sound like an alphabetical roll call of superpowered characters. Which basically they are. A bit like an accessible Classical Age Who’s Who or Marvel Handbook, really.

Edited October 5 by Ken Aldred

[sfcityduck]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:13 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Comic books themselves have been described as ‘modern mythology’ stories.

Continuing the same process.

I read one book on classical world mythology written in a way which described the deities in a vivid manner which made it sound like a roll call of superpowered characters. Which basically they are. A bit like an accessible Classical Age Who’s Who or Marvel Handbook, really.

I was a huge fan of Edith Hamilton's Greek Mythology as a kid and can't recommend it enough. After that, I turned to Norse mythology. Was also big into the books of Walter Scott (Ivanhoe fame), Alexander Dumas (Musketeers and Count of Monte Cristo fame), and Howard Pyle (yeah, the illustrator, but he also wrote Robin Hood, Arthur, and "Men of Iron")