Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 7:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

Lee stole the idea. Kirby had repeated the idea and Lee claimed credit for 'writing' it.

The evidence that Lee stole the idea being? 

He probably was inspired by an earlier version of the idea, it was around for a long time, but there is not reason why it would necessarily be from a Kirby Black Magic story (of course Kirby probably also stole it as he admitted to getting a lot of his ideas from his reading material):

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 10:53 AM, sfcityduck said:

The evidence that Lee stole the idea being? 

He probably was inspired by an earlier version of the idea, it was around for a long time, but there is not reason why it would necessarily be from a Kirby Black Magic story (of course Kirby probably also stole it as he admitted to getting a lot of his ideas from his reading material):

That's a human erasing someone. Not a human eraser. LOL. 
 

Nice try. 

[Prince Namor]

And the thing is Kirby never went around, saying "I created the human eraser idea!". "It was my original idea!" Stan Lee is actually quoted as saying he came up with the idea. 
 

Which brings it back to my book, FINALLY, Lee claims credit for coming up with ideas in amazing adult fantasy that the Outer Limits would later go onto copy from HIM.

You know concepts like last man on earth and a female robot - ideas that have been around for decades. But there was Lee right there in print, in his own words claiming credit for coming up with those kind of ideas.
 

He LIED. 
 

Fact. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:04 PM, Prince Namor said:

... in the Silver Age. Get it right.

Who didn't?

Another misintrepation of facts. Ditko DID create Spider-man. He didn't 'side with Lee'. He pointed out that the idea Kirby BROUGHT TO LEE (i.e. that Lee DIDN'T write), was taken by HIM (Ditko) and reworked into what it became - and then Lee signed his name as the writer, taking credit and pay for the process. 

Which is what Kirby said.

No. That's not what Ditko said. Two years after the creation, in 1965, when the history was still clear in everyone's heads, Ditko answered the question: "Who originated Spider-man?" by stating "Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist, & spider signal."

Much later he talked about how he and Stan used the Marvel method to create a new Spider-Man after he informed Lee that Kirby's ideas were a rip-off of S&K's "The Fly":

Quote

 

“In 1961 I was working with Stan Lee (writer/editor) at Marvel Comics in producing material (stories and art) for Amazing Adventures (which became Amazing Adult Fantasy). Briefly, in regards to our working method, Stan provided the plot ideas. There would be a discussion to clear up anything, consider options and so forth. I would then do the panel/page breakdowns, pencil the visual story continuity and, on a separate piece of paper, provide a very rough panel dialogue, merely as a guide for Stan. Stan would provide the finished dialogue for the character, ideas and consistency.” –

— Steve Ditko “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man” essay from Avenging World (2002)

 

"Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don’t know what was said in that call. Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing SM (Spider-Man). I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan’s synopsis and doing the inking.”

— Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 13 “Speculation” The Comics! Vol 14 No. 8 August 2003, the newsletter of Robin Snyder.

 

Lee’s newly written synopsis was described by Ditko as consisting of a ‘brief story line’, being a ‘page and a half’ in length.  This would form the basis of a new origin tale with a twist ending in the style of other Lee/Ditko short stories.  Ditko viewed it as a fresh start for the strip: “Kirby’s five penciled Spiderman story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult Spiderman and whatever legend ideas that Spiderman story would have contained.”

— Steve Ditko “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man” essay from Avenging World (2002)

 

“Does anyone wonder or care what S-M would look like, be like today, if I had never mentioned the Fly and just inked Jack/Stan’s S-M idea?”

— Steve Ditko, ‘The Silent Self Deceivers’ 2012 (as reprinted in ‘The Complete Four-Page Series and other Essays’, 2020)

 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:55 PM, Prince Namor said:

That's a human erasing someone. Not a human eraser. LOL. 
 

Nice try. 

Yeah, this is a really different take on the idea - LoL.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

And the thing is Kirby never went around, saying "I created the human eraser idea!". "It was my original idea!"

Stan Lee is actually quoted as saying he came up with the idea. 

So Kirby never claimed the idea. And Stan did claim the idea. And Kirby never contradicted Stan. But it is Stan who is a liar? 

 

Edited to add: P.S. Why would anyone falsely claim they came up with one of the lamest of all Marvel villains? Lee and Kirby had a lot of bad ideas (Paste Pot Peet etc.) and this was one of them. The claim that Lee "stole" Kirby's glory regarding the "Living Eraser" is not the hill I'd want to die on in a debate.

Edited 2 hours ago by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 8:59 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Which brings it back to my book, FINALLY, Lee claims credit for coming up with ideas in amazing adult fantasy that the Outer Limits would later go onto copy from HIM.

You know concepts like last man on earth and a female robot - ideas that have been around for decades. But there was Lee right there in print, in his own words claiming credit for coming up with those kind of ideas.
 

He LIED. 
 

Fact. 

I'll give you that if he made those claims (evidence?) then it was a foolish and untrue bit of hype.

But IMHO Kirby claiming he created Spider-Man is a much much bigger sin.

And your attempt to deny Stan Lee, the guy who wrote the wonderful dialogue on the Marvel books of that period any credit whatsoever, is a much greater sin even than Kirby's statement. Because Kirby can claim confusion or desperation (Joe Simon stated in writing that Kirby admitted desperation was the reason he made the claim in his legal battles with Marvel). I don't think you have those excuses.

[Inhuman Fiend]

OP: I've read numerous, but of course not all, of your nearly countless posts on this subject over the years. The words obsessed and vendetta come to mind. No I haven't (and won't) read the book or all the posts in this thread. Is it because I disagree with you? No, not at all. Jack and Steve were founding fathers, legendary innovators and titans of the industry...and Marvel as we know it would not exist without them. Stan was mostly a manager or coach. What I would ask is this...what is your goal in publishing this book? Really...what do you hope to accomplish? Who does it help? Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee were the core creators and promoters of a series of characters, and a brand, that is world famous. Were Jack and Steve the driving creative forces with minimal input from Coach Stan? Probably. Actually let's just say yes, absolutely. And let's also say that yes, Stan absolutely lied, exaggerated, etc...about his involvement and input into the creation of these characters. Stan's role was far less creative, but no less critical. Would Jack, Steve et all have had even a tiny fraction of the success and fame they enjoyed as creators...or that the characters and Marvel brand enjoyed...if Stan Lee wasn't involved? Hell no. Even if you think the success of the Marvel Universe is 99.99% Jack, Steve and everybody else...and .01% Stan...still, NOBODY would have ever heard of any of their creations, or even Marvel...WITHOUT Stan. Period. All early Marvel creators, and their families, are objectively better off with Stan's contributions, whether you think those contributions are good, bad, fake or evil. They needed him, and he needed them. So I ask again, who does your book help? 

Edited 2 hours ago by Inhuman Fiend

[Mmehdy]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:16 PM, VintageComics said:

The book is only a week old and you're not sure if you've read it twice or not?

yes...you have a tendancy to reread some of the sections...I suggest you do the same!

[sfcityduck]

One final comment:

I may disagree with your arguments, your tone, and your decision to write this book.

But you absolutely have the right to decide to write it, and I'd defend that to the death. You also have the right to defend and debate your ideas.

End of my participation in this debate unless there's some compelling reason down the line.

[VintageComics]

On 9/20/2024 at 11:09 PM, sfcityduck said:

Source? I'm guess that's likely false. Siegel & Shuster may easily have had four different million selling comics just at DC.

Several Disney and Fawcett artists might also have had multiple million selling comics. (Are you counting Captain Marvel for S&K? Cause they weren't the reason).

It's a topic that needs research before I'd accept that claim. A number of surprising comics have sold a million copies.

Yes.

Simon and Kirby did Captain Marvel Adventures #1 but it was subsequent issues that sold a million copies per issue with the peak being something like 1.5 Million copies per issue at the peak and it sold from monthly to every 3 weeks to bi-weekly, depending on the year. It was to the Golden Age was Spider-man was to Marvel.

Captain Marvel was the most popular hero of the Golden Age because of the character, not the artist and writer. 

On 9/20/2024 at 11:53 PM, sfcityduck said:

The evidence that Lee stole the idea being? 

He probably was inspired by an earlier version of the idea, it was around for a long time, but there is not reason why it would necessarily be from a Kirby Black Magic story (of course Kirby probably also stole it as he admitted to getting a lot of his ideas from his reading material):

Since Kirby worked on the title in Captain Marvel Adventures #1, he was likely following / reading the title and it's not hard to believe he got his Black Magic #59 Eraser idea (1957) from Captain Marvel Adventures #97 (1947). 

Arguing "who created what" is almost as silly as arguing the same in music. 

There are only 8 notes in Western music. There's only so much you can do with 8 notes. the possibilities are finite. Eventually, it's all just a derivative of something else.

It's similar in comics. Almost all comic ideas are derivative of something out of human history with a slight spin to make it 'different', and comic creators made no secret that they were constantly borrowing ideas even if competing against them. 

The mostly likely explanation is that CMA #97 is the origin of this character idea and both Lee and Kirby likely remembered or copied it. They both would have been aware of a comic book selling bi-weekly at the time and over a million copies per issue. 

The meeting probably went something like "Hey, there was this Captain Marvel character about an eraser"

The other would say something like "Yeah, yeah, didn't that idea also appear in that horror mag?"

And boom, a new idea was created. 

And now, 60 years later, we're trying to surgically dissect who said what in a dark, dusty room one afternoon and argue over it.

Edited 1 hour ago by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/21/2024 at 12:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

Actually let's just say yes, absolutely. And let's also say that yes, Stan absolutely lied, exaggerated, etc...about his involvement and input into the creation of these characters. Stan's role was far less creative, but no less critical. Would Jack, Steve et all have had even a tiny fraction of the success and fame they enjoyed as creators...or that the characters and Marvel brand enjoyed...if Stan Lee wasn't involved? Hell no. Even if you think the success of the Marvel Universe is 99.99% Jack, Steve and everybody else...and .01% Stan...still, NOBODY would have ever heard of any of their creations, or even Marvel...WITHOUT Stan.

In listening to many people talk about Kirby last night while I was watching videos, this stuck out to me:

"Stan was the instigator [in creating the FF], and frankly, if Jack [Kirby] had written it, it would have been a BUST! Stan was a terrific scripter. They were a great combination...Lennon / McCartney...Jack was the mind behind everything, Stan was the guy that made it smooth."

Barry Windsor Smith

---------------------------------------

I have 3 points to make that will make my greater point. 

Point 1) Ironically, in the same video, earlier in the video they talked about Simon, whose extensive experience in business helped pave the way for Jack Kirby's GA success as Simon and Kirby. Simon understood the business side of the industry and how to navigate it much better than Jack did. 

 

Point 2) In much the same way, Lee understood the business side of the industry much better than Kirby did.

These two examples, Simon and Kirby in the GA and Lee and Kirby in the SA show me that Jack was great as a creator, but he wasn't as great as just "Lennon" without a "McCartney" to to shape his raw talent and market it, and it took a Simon or a Lee for Jack to get to the heights he did. 

Jack was a grunt. A bulldog. He got the physical job done and carried the industry on his back creatively (literally), but alone, without fine tuning and some direction, he was incapable of being as great without someone who could harness that energy and direct it. That's what both Simon and Lee were capable of doing. 

Both Simon / Kirby + Lee / Kirby were greater than the sum of their parts creatively and commercially. 

 

Point 3) Finally, the New Gods / Fourth World stuff.

It has it's followers, and some people swear by it, but it didn't revolutionize the industry the way Neal Adams and Denny O'Neil did, did it? I mean, I've never been compelled to read it. To me, it was lacking something to invite me to it. 

It was missing the Simon or Lee "touch".

 

Side note: A bit of a personal 'Roy' touch, and this is going to sound funny, and some may not understand it, and some might even say I'm making it about myself, but if that's the case, you're missing my point because that's not my intent.

I learned watching those videos last night was that Kirby was a Virgo, born Aug 28th.

I'm a Virgo and Virgos have certain tendencies in my experience. 

Once I learned that, I understood Kirby's worldview and is motivations much better and in a strange way could relate to his strengths and his weaknesses. We can be tenacious and strong willed, which is great when you're battling a war of attrition to outlast competition, which Kirby obviously did, because we literally have endless drive when we love or believe in something (believe me, it's truly endless), but I've also learned that I'm personally much better when someone helps take the rough edges and smooths them out a bit for me, or helps fill in the blind spots as a partner or a manager might.

As I got to know Kirby better through my research, I got to understand more about Kirby and could relate to it because I'd seen it in my own life. 

It's undeniable that Kirby was always greatest when tethered to a partner who could use his raw, primal strengths and either refine, market or direct them in the best possible way. 

Kirby was at his peak(s) when working with Simon, or with Lee, or with his wife Roz.

Edited 1 hour ago by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

Edited both of my posts above slightly. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:10 AM, sfcityduck said:

No. That's not what Ditko said. Two years after the creation, in 1965, when the history was still clear in everyone's heads, Ditko answered the question: "Who originated Spider-man?" by stating "Stan Lee thought the name up. I did costume, web gimmick on wrist, & spider signal."

Much later he talked about how he and Stan used the Marvel method to create a new Spider-Man after he informed Lee that Kirby's ideas were a rip-off of S&K's "The Fly":

 

That's because that's what Lee TOLD him. WE know he DIDN'T make the name up. Duh.

No. He said BEFORE he reworked it, in HIS WRITTEN WORDS:

“I told Stan it sounded like Joe Simon's character, The Fly (1959), that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics…Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don't know what was said in that call. Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing (Spider-Man). I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis and doing the inking.

- Steve Ditko, in ‘A Mini-History - 13. ‘Speculation’ © 2003 S. Ditko

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:13 AM, sfcityduck said:

Yeah, this is a really different take on the idea - LoL.

Yes it is. Thank you for agreeing.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:20 AM, sfcityduck said:

I'll give you that if he made those claims (evidence?) then it was a foolish and untrue bit of hype.

Go read Origins of Marvel Comics.

On 9/21/2024 at 11:20 AM, sfcityduck said:

But IMHO Kirby claiming he created Spider-Man is a much much bigger sin.

When presented in the false way you do, I can see that. 

On 9/21/2024 at 11:20 AM, sfcityduck said:

And your attempt to deny Stan Lee, the guy who wrote the wonderful dialogue on the Marvel books of that period any credit whatsoever, is a much greater sin even than Kirby's statement. Because Kirby can claim confusion or desperation (Joe Simon stated in writing that Kirby admitted desperation was the reason he made the claim in his legal battles with Marvel). I don't think you have those excuses.

I never DENIED Stan Lee ANYTHING.

DON'T put words in my mouth.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:25 PM, Prince Namor said:

That's because that's what Lee TOLD him. WE know he DIDN'T make the name up. Duh.

No. He said BEFORE he reworked it, in HIS WRITTEN WORDS:

“I told Stan it sounded like Joe Simon's character, The Fly (1959), that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics…Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don't know what was said in that call. Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing (Spider-Man). I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis and doing the inking.

- Steve Ditko, in ‘A Mini-History - 13. ‘Speculation’ © 2003 S. Ditko

What are you disagreeing with? You don't view his as Stan having a hand in the creation?: "Stan told me we would be doing (Spider-Man). I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis and doing the inking." 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/20/2024 at 10:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

I never DENIED Stan Lee ANYTHING.

DON'T put words in my mouth.

Did Stan co-create with Jack Kirby or not?

Does the person who dialogues a story deserve credit for co-creation of that story or not?

 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

OP: I've read numerous, but of course not all, of your nearly countless posts on this subject over the years. The words obsessed and vendetta come to mind.

Thanks for making it about me. Sigh.

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

No I haven't (and won't) read the book or all the posts in this thread.

But you'll come in here to tell us that. Great.

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

Is it because I disagree with you? No, not at all. Jack and Steve were founding fathers, legendary innovators and titans of the industry...and Marvel as we know it would not exist without them. Stan was mostly a manager or coach. What I would ask is this...what is your goal in publishing this book? Really...what do you hope to accomplish? Who does it help?

Seems to me you've already made up your mind as to why.

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee were the core creators and promoters of a series of characters, and a brand, that is world famous. Were Jack and Steve the driving creative forces with minimal input from Coach Stan? Probably. Actually let's just say yes, absolutely. And let's also say that yes, Stan absolutely lied, exaggerated, etc...about his involvement and input into the creation of these characters. Stan's role was far less creative, but no less critical. Would Jack, Steve et all have had even a tiny fraction of the success and fame they enjoyed as creators...or that the characters and Marvel brand enjoyed...if Stan Lee wasn't involved? Hell no. Even if you think the success of the Marvel Universe is 99.99% Jack, Steve and everybody else...and .01% Stan...still, NOBODY would have ever heard of any of their creations, or even Marvel...WITHOUT Stan. Period. All early Marvel creators, and their families, are objectively better off with Stan's contributions, whether you think those contributions are good, bad, fake or evil.

a) I've never denied Lee's role in making the Marvel 'Universe' successful. Why do people keep saying this?

I've stated numerous times - "The Marvel Universe would not have been the same without Stan Lee's part in it" ("But it wouldn't have happened at all without Jack Kirby).

b) Your idea of Kirby wouldn't have been successful without Lee is based on what? Kirby was successful in the 40's, he was successfulk in the 50's and he was succesful in the 70's. What would've made the 60's any different?

You mean as successful as Marvel was? It's debateable I guess. Did they sell more comics in the 60's than at any other time in Marvel's history? NO. Was it close? NO. What is successful? What measurment would you choose to use as a gauge?

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

They needed him, and he needed them.

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were self sufficient creators their entire lives. They didn't NEED Stan Lee. At anytime, Ditko could've come back to Spider-man and made a fortune based on the new financial setup. He didn't He was happy creating the way he did. Kirby could have at any time returned to FF or Thor and made a fortune based on the new financial setup. John Byrne became a millionaire from his time on FF.

But they didn't. Because self-respect and integrity was more important to them. It's just a comic book. 

On 9/21/2024 at 11:25 AM, Inhuman Fiend said:

So I ask again, who does your book help? 

Your not going to buy it, what do you care?

How pompous and obnoxious is it for you to come in here and immediately accuse me of a vendetta and being obsessed and boast how "No I haven't (and won't) read the book or all the posts in this thread", and yet still feel the need to interogate me? 

I wish I could say what I really want to say in response to that, but I'm sure you can figure it out. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/21/2024 at 11:37 AM, VintageComics said:

There are only 8 notes in Western music.

There's 12.