Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[jimjum12]

On 9/23/2024 at 1:10 PM, Mmehdy said:

Kirby had a family to support, kids to feed, and came from a background of day to day survival ....opposite of Stan...but the way I look at it, if the table had been turned Jack would have given Stan full credit for what he done...that is the difference maker here

Stan had a family too. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mmehdy]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:01 AM, Prince Namor said:

To me that's not writing. In Hollywood they call that a script doctor. They're not credited as 'the writer'. 

Every editor at DC Comics in the 60's suggested ideas to the writers. And every one of those Editors corrected dialogue, added and subtracted dialogue, put together covers and had word balloons moved around...

None of them took credit as the 'writer' and the 'scripter'.

Exactly....

[Mmehdy]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:18 AM, jimjum12 said:

Actually, I wrote that, and once again, EVERYBODY lied. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

As Dave of storage wars would say YAPPPP

[Mmehdy]

On 9/24/2024 at 4:31 AM, namisgr said:

I'm quite sure everyone reading this thread can see who it is whose opinions shouldn't be questioned. 

I think everyone's opinion can be questioned..but for SM....he has laid it out in over 300 plus pages....simply his  opinion carries the weight here...I suggest you read the book, your comments are sharp and to the point and would to get you opinion on it...it is free on Amazon Kindle as well as a preview of it by simply looking it up. There is a lot of meat on SM book's bone here, a lot that cannot be ignored. Maybe this book could not of been written 25 years ago or even 30....I know that NO publisher would touch it...its too sharp, too critical and of course the title smacks you in your  face...I especially want your comments on the FF/Spider Man sections....

Edited Tuesday at 03:45 PM by Mmehdy

[Prince Namor]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:44 PM, Mmehdy said:

I think everyone's opinion can be questioned..but for SM....he has laid it out in over 300 plus pages....simply his  opinion carries the weight here...I suggest you read the book, your comments are sharp and to the point and would to get you opinion on it...it is free on Amazon Kindle as well as a preview of it by simply looking it up. There is a lot of meat on SM book's bone here, a lot that cannot be ignored. Maybe this book could not of been written 25 years ago or even 30....I know that NO publisher would touch it...its too sharp, too critical and of course the title smacks you in your  face...I especially want your comments on the FF/Spider Man sections....

Mitch, there are some people who's thoughts on this will never change regardless of what information comes out. That's not who the book is for. It's for open minded people who want to hear all the facts and make their own determination.

With hardcore Lee fans, you could show them proof that Lee hammered the nails into Jesus' hands on the cross and they'd say - with a straight face - "Do you not see the way Stan would arrange a thought balloon on the cover of a comic?"

I've stood up to that mentality for many years here on these boards - when I first started posting about this topic, moderation wasn't the way it is now - I really took some negativity... it's not as bad here now, but Facebook I get a lot of ugly comments. Most just make me laugh. Somebody called me evil. LOL. The Stranglehold of Nostalgia on some people.

But every time I get a private message or read someone's review who is HAPPY to see someone addressing this, it makes me smile. There are people who want to hear the truth. Who don't want to be hynotized. Who'll be able to still enjoy the comics they loved as a kid and yet know the truth behind them. 

[aszumilo]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:18 AM, jimjum12 said:

EVERYBODY lied.

 

I wrote that first

[VintageComics]

On 9/24/2024 at 12:10 PM, Prince Namor said:

Mitch, there are some people who's thoughts on this will never change regardless of what information comes out. That's not who the book is for. It's for open minded people who want to hear all the facts and make their own determination.

With hardcore Lee fans, you could show them proof that Lee hammered the nails into Jesus' hands on the cross and they'd say - with a straight face - "Do you not see the way Stan would arrange a thought balloon on the cover of a comic?"

I've stood up to that mentality for many years here on these boards - when I first started posting about this topic, moderation wasn't the way it is now - I really took some negativity... it's not as bad here now, but Facebook I get a lot of ugly comments. Most just make me laugh. Somebody called me evil. LOL. The Stranglehold of Nostalgia on some people.

But every time I get a private message or read someone's review who is HAPPY to see someone addressing this, it makes me smile. There are people who want to hear the truth. Who don't want to be hynotized. Who'll be able to still enjoy the comics they loved as a kid and yet know the truth behind them. 

It's weird that you refer to Lee as a type of Judas. 

All you've done is denigrate and/or mischaracterize not only anyone that's worked with Kirby in comics, including dead creators - some of whom their family members are even here reading, but also everyone who hasn't gone along in lockstep with your beliefs - including many reasonable, knowledgeable, well-meaning boardies. Your tone is so disrespectful to anyone who doesn't elevate Kirby to the level of a deity that's hard to comprehend. 

History is not uncovered through a list of facts. 

History is uncovered through open discussion of those facts, and there is absolutely no open discussion allowed in this thread unless everyone agrees with your conclusion from the outset.

A proper discussion discusses all sides of a point and then presents evidence that makes people want to agree with your side. 

Just look at how many reasonable boardies disagree with you or look for clarification and all you do is impolitely hammer away at them or laugh at them (LOL) for their replies. 

There's really only been one person who isn't open minded in this entire thread.

If you wanted to lure people away from the altar of Stan Lee or Joe Simon and convert them to Kirbyism, this wasn't the path. 

And this will be my last post in this thread, because I don't want to give it any more air.

I just felt something needed to be said, with Joe Simon's family reading this thread. 

[comicwiz]

On 9/24/2024 at 2:29 PM, VintageComics said:

I just felt something needed to be said, with Joe Simon's family reading this thread. 

If you have a way to reach out to them, perhaps you can also make them aware there's people in the community who would like to know how their estate ended-up with "a whole bunch of Kirby artwork being sold", as per the following post.

BTW - this isn't the first post I've seen on this matter, just fortuitous timing that one popped-up again today so close to your statement about the family reading this thread:

[jimjum12]

On 9/24/2024 at 1:13 PM, aszumilo said:

I wrote that first

Yes, but I stole it from you ... as is the custom these days.  GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[comicwiz]

Kirby's pencils from this period are incredible

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:38 PM by comicwiz

[Mmehdy]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:29 AM, VintageComics said:

It's weird that you refer to Lee as a type of Judas. 

All you've done is denigrate and/or mischaracterize not only anyone that's worked with Kirby in comics, including dead creators - some of whom their family members are even here reading, but also everyone who hasn't gone along in lockstep with your beliefs - including many reasonable, knowledgeable, well-meaning boardies. Your tone is so disrespectful to anyone who doesn't elevate Kirby to the level of a deity that's hard to comprehend. 

History is not uncovered through a list of facts. 

History is uncovered through open discussion of those facts, and there is absolutely no open discussion allowed in this thread unless everyone agrees with your conclusion from the outset.

A proper discussion discusses all sides of a point and then presents evidence that makes people want to agree with your side. 

Just look at how many reasonable boardies disagree with you or look for clarification and all you do is impolitely hammer away at them or laugh at them (LOL) for their replies. 

There's really only been one person who isn't open minded in this entire thread.

If you wanted to lure people away from the altar of Stan Lee or Joe Simon and convert them to Kirbyism, this wasn't the path. 

And this will be my last post in this thread, because I don't want to give it any more air.

I just felt something needed to be said, with Joe Simon's family reading this thread. 

It is a factual detective analysis that creates the REAL history and story...not the fairy tale that has been spun out there. This has been an open discussion with some hard blowback...you have to understand SM's position, the world, the spin, and the fairy tale are all against him. The is not meant to be word for word the final word....it does create however a compelling case that there has been a real injustice that occurred to Jack, Steve and a whole host of other Marvel teammates whose credits were taken away....by who?.. Someone who wanted ALL the credit...and took it all before changing his story to fit the times..and which way the winds are blowing.

It 2024 VC....and it is about time this came out of the closet...

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:49 PM by Mmehdy

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:29 AM, VintageComics said:

including many reasonable, knowledgeable, well-meaning boardies.

 

On 9/24/2024 at 11:29 AM, VintageComics said:

Just look at how many reasonable boardies disagree with you

[RockMyAmadeus]

[The humble Watcher lurking]

Not dissing no one, but to me Jack Kirby is the KING. His art exploded off the pages. He was the OG. 

Edited Tuesday at 09:19 PM by The humble Watcher lurking

[bc]

On 9/24/2024 at 3:38 PM, comicwiz said:

Kirby's pencils from this period are incredible

 

I just wanted to quote this because it's so cool.

-bc

[Prince Namor]

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

It's weird that you refer to Lee as a type of Judas.

Judas betrayed one person.

Lee betrayed Martin Goodman who gave him a high paying job for 40 years, Goodman's son Chip who he snaked out of the Publisher's job, all the artists that he stole credit and pay from throuhout the 60's, including Jack Kirby who saved his job and gave him the means with which to make himself rich and famous, Roy Thomas who helped elevate his status through media manipulation, and even Marvel Comics who he strong armed into a Million Dollar a year contract.

Fact check that for me. 

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

All you've done is denigrate and/or mischaracterize not only anyone that's worked with Kirby in comics,

Your opinion, which aimed at me rather than fact

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

including dead creators - some of whom their family members are even here reading,

What does THAT have to do with anything? 

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

but also everyone who hasn't gone along in lockstep with your beliefs - including many reasonable, knowledgeable, well-meaning boardies. Your tone is so disrespectful to anyone who doesn't elevate Kirby to the level of a deity that's hard to comprehend.

Here we go again. 

You disagree with someone's point of view and it's a discussion. I disagree with someone's point of view, and I'm disrespectful.

Everyone else is "reasonable, knowledgeable, well-meaning" - I don't bow to their view, I'm disrespectful.

Got it.

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

History is not uncovered through a list of facts.

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

History is uncovered through open discussion of those facts, and there is absolutely no open discussion allowed in this thread unless everyone agrees with your conclusion from the outset.

No one has been censored from stating their views.

Are you saying that @CGC Mike has allowed ME to be disrespectful, while being much more harsh to everyone else?

Seems we've heard this from you before Roy. Whenever a conversation doesn't go your way, you turn it into a personal, "It's not fair" complaint. 

It's a debate and a discussion - if you have a POINT, MAKE IT, and someone will either agree or disagree and hopfully present facts to rebut it or NOT.

If you have a FACT that you think I am wrong about - NOT a generanlization pointed at ME - then present it and it can discussed. Otherwise you're simply just telling me I'm better prepared for this discussion than YOU are.

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

A proper discussion discusses all sides of a point and then presents evidence that makes people want to agree with your side.

It DOES? I've been through 41 pages of a thread about my book and no one has brought up a single point from it. 

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

Just look at how many reasonable boardies disagree with you or look for clarification and all you do is impolitely hammer away at them or laugh at them (LOL) for their replies.

Again, aimed at ME not a specifc fact.

THEY are reasonable. I impolitely hammer away at them.

I'm prepared with FACTS. If you can refute them, do so.

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

There's really only been one person who isn't open minded in this entire thread.

If you believe that people who blindly swear alliegience to Stan Lee are open minded, I can't help you. 

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

If you wanted to lure people away from the altar of Stan Lee or Joe Simon and convert them to Kirbyism, this wasn't the path. 

I am the pond, calm and still. Merely reflective of the oncoming stone. 

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

And this will be my last post in this thread, because I don't want to give it any more air.

Since it's all aimed at ME instead of any specific point, I'll hold the door open for you.

On 9/25/2024 at 1:29 AM, VintageComics said:

I just felt something needed to be said, with Joe Simon's family reading this thread. 

The Bengals are 0-3, but the newspapers better not write about it - their family might be reading!

[Prince Namor]

Let's go over it again:

Nowhere am I claiming Lee did nothing.

Nowhere am I claiming that Lee didn't add dialogue, give direction to stories ("Let's have the Human Torch, guest star!"), edit stories, juggle word balloons, etc. I can still have an OPINION on the necessity or value of those things by him, but I've never claimed he didn't do them.

Nowhere am I claiming that Lee didn't have 'ballyhoo'. 

Nowhere did I claim that Lee didn't have an impact on Comic Books and the 'Culture' surrounding it.

Nowhere did I claim that Lee didn't help create a 'brand'.

 

THESE are the topics that have been brought up here, mostly unrelated to the main topic of my book. I've given my OPINION on some of those topics BACK, with facts and imformation to support WHY I have those opinions on it, and some find that objectionable. 

Ok. And?

I've simply continued discussing it.

They didn't want to and in some instances got PERSONAL.

Yet... I'm the villain?

LOL.

HISTORY and TRUTH are on MY SIDE. 

[mrc]

On 9/24/2024 at 10:18 PM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Not dissing no one, but to me Jack Kirby is the KING. His art exploded off the pages. He was the OG. 

Is it true that Carmine Infantino once remarked he thought kids loved Marvel's stuff because it looked like it could have been drawn by the kids themselves?    

 

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:05 PM, mrc said:

Is it true that Carmine Infantino once remarked he thought kids loved Marvel's stuff because it looked like it could have been drawn by the kids themselves?    

 

Carmine Infantino was a very interesting individual. He did go out of his way to hire Jack Kirby from Marvel. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/25/2024 at 6:20 AM, The humble Watcher lurking said:

Carmine Infantino was a very interesting individual. He did go out of his way to hire Jack Kirby from Marvel. 

Yes he did!

And I don't just say that because his family may be reading this thread!