What's the latest on the CGC Purple vs. Blue Label For Restored Books?

[thedarkknight]

Actually, I think the blue label issue will only cause problems for CGC. People won't trust their grading as much. They already have consistancy problems. This will just get bigger. People might stop having their books certified.

[action1kid]

Last I heard, you won't buy any restored books. Has that changed?

 

I think you're wrong about your numbers. I believe that the percentage of collectors who collect unrestored ONLY is a very very very small percentage of collectors that is dwarfed in comparison to the number of people who would be happy to own a restored book at the right price.

 

Do you honestly think that there are more people who would NOT buy this book than those who would? And do you honestly believe that this book would sell for LESS money if it were in a blue label slab with a Restoration score of 1 or 2?

 

My collecting habits have not changed.........

 

Never mind the goldenage collector for the moment.In the Silver And Bronz age arena restoration is viewed in a much more negitive light than the goldenage.Much much more so. So from an investment perspective[and thats what im talking about] Yes I do think this book would be looked upon unfavoribly by the general comic popululation particularly that its a SILVER AGE BOOK with restoration.I didnt make the mindset that silver age collectors have.They are much more negitive about resto in silver age.Also ad to the fact that it has the dreaded[PIECES ADDED] memo on it.Sure it can sell at the right price and that price is going to be an ENORMOUS discount to unrestored price.

 

Because a restored book was in a blue holder to me means it would be scruntinized by me all the more.I dont have total faith in that score of 1 or 2 especially if it gets that score when PIECES ARE ADDED. Ill use my eyes more than that score.

[action1kid]

Dont get me wrong. Restoration is a GOOD thing. Its just not a good investment as it stands today.Sure you can make money at the right price but will the seller give you that opportunity to get the right price if he thinks it should go for more money being restored........

[FFB]

Last I heard, you won't buy any restored books. Has that changed?

 

I think you're wrong about your numbers. I believe that the percentage of collectors who collect unrestored ONLY is a very very very small percentage of collectors that is dwarfed in comparison to the number of people who would be happy to own a restored book at the right price.

 

Do you honestly think that there are more people who would NOT buy this book than those who would? And do you honestly believe that this book would sell for LESS money if it were in a blue label slab with a Restoration score of 1 or 2?

 

My collecting habits have not changed.........

 

Never mind the goldenage collector for the moment.In the Silver And Bronz age arena restoration is viewed in a much more negitive light than the goldenage.Much much more so. So from an investment perspective[and thats what im talking about] Yes I do think this book would be looked upon unfavoribly by the general comic popululation particularly that its a SILVER AGE BOOK with restoration.I didnt make the mindset that silver age collectors have.They are much more negitive about resto in silver age.Also ad to the fact that it has the dreaded[PIECES ADDED] memo on it.Sure it can sell at the right price and that price is going to be an ENORMOUS discount to unrestored price.

 

Because a restored book was in a blue holder to me means it would be scruntinized by me all the more.I dont have total faith in that score of 1 or 2 especially if it gets that score when PIECES ARE ADDED. Ill use my eyes more than that score.

 

Could you maybe use the quote function so that it's easier to see what you're quoting and what you've actually written? It's not hard. Just click the "Quote" link and then type all your own stuff before all the other text that shows up in the box.

 

As for the point you are trying to make, by your own admission, you don't buy restored books. Maybe you're not qualified to answer the question about how much all of the many other collectors who would find this AF#15 CGC 9.6 Slight (P) to be an acceptable addition to their collection might be willing to pay for it? I can tell you that this book sold about two years ago for $16,000. I'd be willing to pay $25,000 for it today if it went up for sale and it wouldn't bother me one bit if it were in a new blue label with a restoration score. The label is just a [embarrassing lack of self control] piece of paper. It's still the same book.

 

And this isn't a question of whether restoration is as accepted among silver age books as it is on golden age books. No argument there. Everyone knows that. The question is this -- do you think this book would sell to a WILLING BUYER for less in a blue label slab with a restoration score than it would in its current purple label with the "slight (P)" notation? It sounds to me like you have an equal problem with the "slight (P)" notation because of the 1/16th inch square piece that was added to sharped the bindery corner. Why would you view this book any differently if it had the same notes and a restoration score of 1 or 2?

[FFB]

Actually, I think the blue label issue will only cause problems for CGC. People won't trust their grading as much. They already have consistancy problems. This will just get bigger. People might stop having their books certified.

 

Or they might not. How can you be sure?

[Timulty]

Okay, I am weighing in. I collect primarily GA and BA. I know for a fact that I wouldn't buy a restored BA book even a perceived "scarce" or Key book. The reason, there are plenty of them out there in the grade I want. From what I have seen of Silver Age this is the case also. There's not just a bubble in housing, I believe there is one for Silver and Bronze.

[action1kid]

Maybe you're not qualified to answer the question about how much all of the many other collectors who would find this AF#15 CGC 9.6 Slight (P) to be an acceptable addition to their collection might be willing to pay for it?

 

Maybe................

 

I can tell you that this book sold about two years ago for $16,000.

Restored books were worth more 2 years ago as they have been hit hard pricewise the last few years.....Im willing to say that it would get less now.

You are speaking in absolutes.Because your willing to pay 25k does not at all mean everyone else will do so also.There are many people on these boards who would not buy a book with pieces added or a trimmed book.It is not unique to me.

 

The question is this -- do you think this book would sell to a WILLING BUYER for less in a blue label slab with a restoration score than it would in its current purple label with the "slight (P)" notation? I think that your drawing more attention to its flaws by putting it in a blue label than if it was in a purple label, and I guess thats a good thing. .I think that the pieces added memo is going to be considered far more than that 1 or 2 rating. I think that if a book says,cleaned,reinforced and pieces added on the memo, the 1 or 2 rating will mean very little to the buyer. Im not saying every single collector will look at it this way,but an aweful lot will.

[FFB]

Maybe you're not qualified to answer the question about how much all of the many other collectors who would find this AF#15 CGC 9.6 Slight (P) to be an acceptable addition to their collection might be willing to pay for it?

 

Maybe................

 

I can tell you that this book sold about two years ago for $16,000.

Restored books were worth more 2 years ago as they have been hit hard pricewise the last few years.....Im willing to say that it would get less now.

You are speaking in absolutes.Because your willing to pay 25k does not at all mean everyone else will do so also.There are many people on these boards who would not buy a book with pieces added or a trimmed book.It is not unique to me.

 

The question is this -- do you think this book would sell to a WILLING BUYER for less in a blue label slab with a restoration score than it would in its current purple label with the "slight (P)" notation? I think that your drawing more attention to its flaws by putting it in a blue label than if it was in a purple label, and I guess thats a good thing. .I think that the pieces added memo is going to be considered far more than that 1 or 2 rating. I think that if a book says,cleaned,reinforced and pieces added on the memo, the 1 or 2 rating will mean very little to the buyer. Im not saying every single collector will look at it this way,but an aweful lot will.

 

Peter Peter Peter... What restored books were selling for more two years ago? Hit hard pricewise in the last few years?? Do you have any facts to back that up?

 

I've got one specific case that has been sold multiple times within the timeframe you're talking about that shows that the opposite of what you're saying is true. Did you see what happened with the Bethlehem copy of ASM#1? Sold raw by Metro for $6K in about Feb/March 2004. I tried to buy it but missed it by a couple of days. I asked Vinny "why so cheap at $6K?" and he said "Restored books just aren't worth that much." The book was sent to CGC by Metro on behalf of the buyer and slabbed as a 9.4 Slight (P) (clean, press, and tear seal). It sold within a couple of days of being listed on ebay in April 2004 with a "Buy it Now" for $12,000. Resold one year later (April 2005) in a bidding format auction on ebay. Price? $16,899. Not a bad return for one year, eh?

 

What restored silver age or golden age keys are going down in value in the last two years? I can't think of any!

[FFB]

Okay, I am weighing in. I collect primarily GA and BA. I know for a fact that I wouldn't buy a restored BA book even a perceived "scarce" or Key book. The reason, there are plenty of them out there in the grade I want. From what I have seen of Silver Age this is the case also. There's not just a bubble in housing, I believe there is one for Silver and Bronze.

 

As to bronze age, I think you're right. Few buyers want a restored book unless budget is a real issue and the book is a Hulk 181 or X-Men 94 or something that they otherwise couldn't afford. Those two books actually sell fairly well as restored books, but almost all of the rest of the bronze age books don't.

 

For silver age keys like AF#15, ASM#1, Hulk #1, FF#1, Showcase #4, B&B#28, and others that are worth the cost of restoration, I believe that the vast majority of buyers would consider buying a restored, high-grade copy, especially if it were Slight (P). Most couldn't afford a high grade copy otherwise. I believe that collectors who would not buy a restored, high-grade silver age key for any price are the exception, not the rule.

[Timulty]

Okay, I am weighing in. I collect primarily GA and BA. I know for a fact that I wouldn't buy a restored BA book even a perceived "scarce" or Key book. The reason, there are plenty of them out there in the grade I want. From what I have seen of Silver Age this is the case also. There's not just a bubble in housing, I believe there is one for Silver and Bronze.

 

As to bronze age, I think you're right. Few buyers want a restored book unless budget is a real issue and the book is a Hulk 181 or X-Men 94 or something that they otherwise couldn't afford. Those two books actually sell fairly well as restored books, but almost all of the rest of the bronze age books don't.

 

For silver age keys like AF#15, ASM#1, Hulk #1, FF#1, Showcase #4, B&B#28, and others that are worth the cost of restoration, I believe that the vast majority of buyers would consider buying a restored, high-grade copy, especially if it were Slight (P). Most couldn't afford a high grade copy otherwise. I believe that collectors who would not buy a restored, high-grade silver age key for any price are the exception, not the rule.

 

Okay, so SA people are , I understand now. I know on GA restored is definitely acceptable to a point at least. Sometime, it is the on available copy on the market. I don't understand SA collectors though. Other than pricing. I think SA is a bit inflated. So, budget SA collectors would perceive restored books as an option then?

[action1kid]

What restored silver age or golden age keys are going down in value in the last two years? I can't think of any!

You cant think of any because the hobby isnt going to advertise a loss on a book!

There only going to show books that go up in value to promote the hobby.

Do you really think there going to promote that the seller of the pAY Copy of Marvel comics #1 lost 150,000 dollars or the seller of the Mile High Flash #1 lost 75,000 on those sales.You will not find the restored values going down [being published] for that reason either..The losses are all in private sales. These are not documented.Also restored comics sit in inventory for a very very long time.You will find that true on any of the big boys websites.

[action1kid]

The market fluctuates wildly on restored copies of the really expensive comics. For instance, a few years ago, a restored VF Action #1 was fetching $65,000-$80,000, but in 1997, one sold at auction for only $43,000. ..picked up of comicbook website.....[information]

 

just 1 example which does not a market make..........I will post more

[FFB]

What restored silver age or golden age keys are going down in value in the last two years? I can't think of any!

You cant think of any because the hobby isnt going to advertise a loss on a book!

There only going to show books that go up in value to promote the hobby.

Do you really think there going to promote that the seller of the pAY Copy of Marvel comics #1 lost 150,000 dollars or the seller of the Mile High Flash #1 lost 75,000 on those sales.You will not find the restored values going down [being published] for that reason either..The losses are all in private sales. These are not documented.Also restored comics sit in inventory for a very very long time.You will find that true on any of the big boys websites.

 

Those aren't restored books. They were both JP purchases and he famously overpaid back when he bought them. That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

If you ask anyone who has been watching the restored market, they will tell you that restored books have done very well as a general rule over the past few years.

[FFB]

The market fluctuates wildly on restored copies of the really expensive comics. For instance, a few years ago, a restored VF Action #1 was fetching $65,000-$80,000, but in 1997, one sold at auction for only $43,000. ..picked up of comicbook website.....[information]

 

just 1 example which does not a market make..........I will post more

 

1997 was NINE years ago.

 

But since we're talking Action #1......

 

A CGC 7.5 Moderate (P) copy of Action #1 sold in December 2003 (a little over two years ago) for $58,139.40. The same book sold two months ago (January 2006) for $69,000. Again, not a bad return for a little over two years' time, right? And more importantly, the price didn't exactly go DOWN, did it?

[FFB]

Another example:

 

Detective Comics #27 CGC 6.0 Slight (P). Sold for $36,043.30 in December 2003. A little over two years later, January 2006, it sells for $61,065. That is an outstanding return in that two-year period.

[RCComix]

I think your point has been made and I for one agree with it.

 

I remain curious though as to whether CGC has made a decision on implementing any of the ideas suggested in that thread? From my perspective, the idea would have allowed the buyer to get more information on the nature of the resto/conservation. More info is generally better - right? Leave the color purple if it outrages folks, but I do think the idea merited a reasonable discussion. Has there been any word?

 

Russ

[FFB]

I think your point has been made and I for one agree with it.

 

I remain curious though as to whether CGC has made a decision on implementing any of the ideas suggested in that thread? From my perspective, the idea would have allowed the buyer to get more information on the nature of the resto/conservation. More info is generally better - right? Leave the color purple if it outrages folks, but I do think the idea merited a reasonable discussion. Has there been any word?

 

Russ

 

As I understand it, the entire idea was tossed out the window. Status quo for now.

 

I think that the people who want more information and a more detailed description of restoration on the label need to start adjusting their conduct to match that of those on the other side of the debate. We need to get hysterical, forecast the end of the hobby as we know it if things don't change, and generally threaten to stop using CGC and to tell others to do the same if we don't get our way. It has seemed to work on the PCS and new label issue. Maybe that's the only language that CGC understands.

[action1kid]

Those aren't restored books. They were both JP purchases and he famously overpaid back when he bought them. That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

You know very well I brought that up to show that the comicbook leadership will not promote a book that loses money since it is bad to do so economically speaking for the hobby.....I was not, Repeat not using it as evidence for restored book prices.There not restored books.

 

With alot of effort you have probably found 2 books[restored] that made some money.THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS in any subject what so ever that you can think of and that is the case here.You cant based on 2 examples come to the conclusion that all restored books are at least decent investments.Anyway,I will post more restored books that lost money since thats what you really want to see.

[action1kid]

Anyway to directly answer your question.

I do believe that in the short run only that giving restored books a blue label will hurt there value in the short run for 2 reasons.

 

Collectors will resent having a new [dealer fed] grading system forced upon them

 

The restored books flaws under a blue label will force collectors to scrutinize restored books all the more.

 

However I do not believe that a blue label will improve restored books prices.

[FFB]

Those aren't restored books. They were both JP purchases and he famously overpaid back when he bought them. That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

You know very well I brought that up to show that the comicbook leadership will not promote a book that loses money since it is bad to do so economically speaking for the hobby.....I was not, Repeat not using it as evidence for restored book prices.There not restored books.

 

With alot of effort you have probably found 2 books[restored] that made some money.THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS in any subject what so ever that you can think of and that is the case here.You cant based on 2 examples come to the conclusion that all restored books are at least decent investments.Anyway,I will post more restored books that lost money since thats what you really want to see.

 

Still waiting....