If you were Steve Borock, What would you do?

[mica]

Didn't you tell someone else to go buy a dictionary?

[FFB]

Is the answer to my question no, then?

My answer would be yes, probably. Not like you care one bit. Back when KrazyKat was booted you lamented that graemlin wars were worse than he was.

Since then you've kept harping about it.

I merely pointed out that you were doing (whether intentional or not) the same thing directly or indirectly that you've been accusing of. We all do it to some degree,..... except for the part about the complaining.

I liked the response that I quoted and didn't want to see it get buried under a lot of "hey that's my image you're using huyuck".

 

I don't remember complaining. I remember asking people "Why do you hate __________ so much, when graemlin wars are far more distracting and yet you say nothing about them?" Of course we all use graemlins and go off on tangents. I'm probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to going off on tangents simply by virtue of my post count. So what?

[Red Hook]

Come on Mica, leave Our Miss Brooks alone!

[FFB]

Didn't you tell someone else to go buy a dictionary?

 

Why don't you go outside for some exercise to work off some of this newfound aggression. And those cream pies.

[FFB]

Come on Mica, leave Our Miss Brooks alone!

 

Sorry, I don't get the reference. I'm sure it was meant to be derogatory though, so FU!

[Red Hook]

[embarrassing lack of self control] Party";

I'm a member.

 

Weird filtering. Blame Thing.

[drice6900]

I would enact a policy that cleaning and pressing cannot improve a book's grade more than .5 to end the problem of books going from 4.5 to 9.0.

 

I would add a term to the user agreement that confidentiality can be broken in cases of fraud, in order to protect the greater industry of buyers.

 

Excellent and easily implemented policies, Hawk!

 

Let's hope Steve can read thru the non-graemlin [embarrassing lack of self control] to find the good suggestions...

[Darthdiesel]

Kind of a tough situation because if they annouce the hiring of a new restoration expert its almost an acknowledgement that their current staff are not up to snuff (inclduing Steve). I think people would be concerned that their submission over the past few months might not have been reviewed properly such as the JIM book, etc.

 

Not really. I think it would shore up any waning confidence regarding resto detection capabilities. All about buidling customer confidence in the product and having a big name in restodetection heading it up for CGC would definitely bring that about now that the graders who've been doubling as de facto resto detectors can now focus on maintaining grading accuracy.

 

These slabs don't have "born on" dates, but the date slabbed info is available online by using the serial number. However, I don't see much discussion on these boards referring to what I would think would be a pertinent point of discussion. Thus, I doubt the people who submitted and bought said books are going to retroactively be too concerned about the level of scrutiny that was applied to their book in the period between Friesen's departure from CGC and this new hire's effective date. Otherwise, they would not have made the submission or the purchase in the first place.

[FFB]

It's not a matter of whether we trust Steve. I've known him for years, and he is definitely a solid guy. But, bias always gets in the way, no matter who you are. That's why you need fool-proof ways to guarantee unbiased grading. That way it's all above suspicion. And that's what a grading company should be: above suspicion.

 

Where do you feel that bias in the grading process gets introduced? It is my understanding that the "receiving" department does not communicate to the "grading" department where/who the books came from.

 

That said, I'm sure there are examples of books that come through where the graders know who owns it simply b/c of pedigree or some other personal knowledge of the book. However, Steve has indicated that in these situations the grader with the "bias" will recuse themselves from evaluating those books.

 

Is that what he said? I thought he said that he usually knows who owned the book a few years ago, but that when he sees a famous pedigree book come in the door, he doesn't necessarily know who owns it now so it's ok for him to grade it.

 

I am sure he knew who owned the Church copy of Flash Comics #1 when he graded it. The thing about that book is, it's such a high profile book in the hobby that Steve knows his grade will have to stand up to strict scrutiny by the thousands of people who will see the book in person or online. That itself is enough incentive to keep someone honest, even if they were inclined to be otherwise.

 

While I'm posting on topic, I wanted to address an earlier point about hiring an restoration expert. I do think that there are those people who will complain about the books graded during the post-Friesen/pre-Friesen's-replacement era, but those are the same people who would complain about CGC not having a restoration professional on staff if CGC does not replace Friesen. At least by replacing Friesen you are adding to your institutional knowledge base and are limiting the time frame about which people can complain that CGC didn't have an expert on staff.

 

The problem is going to be finding a professional who: (a) will work for CGC instead of him/herself; (b) has not already been blacklisted from working for CGC; © knows enough about restoration of comic books and current techniques to do a competent job spotting well hidden work (which limits the field to a handful of people); (d) has a national reputation as a conservator/restorer such that his person's hiring will lend more legitimacy to the certification process; and (e) will move to Sarasota, FL. At least one of these requirements knocks out Mark Wilson, Matt Wilson, Matt Nelson, Tracey Heft, and Susan Cicconi-Killiany.

 

So who is left? I can't think of anyone. Filling this spot isn't like putting an ad in the paper for a forklift operator.

[heartened]

It's not a matter of whether we trust Steve. I've known him for years, and he is definitely a solid guy. But, bias always gets in the way, no matter who you are. That's why you need fool-proof ways to guarantee unbiased grading. That way it's all above suspicion. And that's what a grading company should be: above suspicion.

 

Where do you feel that bias in the grading process gets introduced? It is my understanding that the "receiving" department does not communicate to the "grading" department where/who the books came from.

 

That said, I'm sure there are examples of books that come through where the graders know who owns it simply b/c of pedigree or some other personal knowledge of the book. However, Steve has indicated that in these situations the grader with the "bias" will recuse themselves from evaluating those books.

 

You need to think big picture. You're talking about only one type of bias, while I'm talking about another. CGC graders, whether they believe it or not, are biased towards having CGC succeed. And, by that I mean having people continue to submit books. This is only natural, and expected. More submissions only occur when submitters make a profit on their sales. Thus, CGC is expected to (1) be lenient with grades, (2) be lenient with upgrading books, and (3) be lenient with what's considered restoration. CGC is simply living up to submitters' expectations.

 

Unfortunately, the long-term effects are quite predictable. CGC is simply a victim to the greed they ignited. If they take a firm stand and go back to basics, they will make a lot of people unhappy and they will lose business, but the hobby may be stronger for it.

[Darthdiesel]

You meant "flack" right? Freudian slip?

 

signed - Evil Cartoonish CGC Basher!

 

flak also flack ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flk)

n.

 

1.

a. Antiaircraft artillery.

b. The bursting shells fired from such artillery.

2. Informal.

a. Excessive or abusive criticism.

b. Dissension; opposition.

 

 

signed - Adeptly Distracting CGC Apologist

[divad]

So who is left? I can't think of anyone. Filling this spot isn't like putting an ad in the paper for a forklift operator.

 

Well, you just need to think "outside the box" . . . comics don't necessarily need to be on their resume, just paper conservation and restoration

[Darthdiesel]

I would enact a policy that cleaning and pressing cannot improve a book's grade more than .5 to end the problem of books going from 4.5 to 9.0.

 

I would add a term to the user agreement that confidentiality can be broken in cases of fraud, in order to protect the greater industry of buyers.

 

 

The problem I see with this is that then you have a book slabbed that is, for intents and purposes, a higher grade than what the label indicates. Then you'll have another generation owner down the road thinking, hey maybe I can play the resub game with this... and the cycle never ends. Unless CGC starts giving out and noting "FINAL GRADE CGC x.x" and coming up with a way to determine which books are resubs, for all submissions, in effect ending the whole resub game - not gonna happen IMO...

[THE_BEYONDER]

Maybe CGC should replace their 9.2/9.4/9.6/9.8/9.9 grades with simply 9.5-/9.5+.

 

That way...there would be less incentive to resubmit for incremental bumps.

[jbud73]

You'll excuse me is I sound cynical, but what exactly does Steve need to do?? Lets look at it from Heritage / CCG / CGC's perspective.

 

You have established a new extremely lucrative sector of a collectibles market - the graded comics market.

 

You enjoy a monopolistic enterprise in this area - not only did you create the game, but you are the only game in town.

 

I mean Bill Gates would kill for the scenerio that Heritage / CCG / CGC has created. I mean he's had to deal with serious legal challenges to his fiefdom at the Supreme Court level, whereas what serious challenges has CGC had to fend off to its market share??? PGX

 

Bottom line, Steve is currently President of a successfull company, as long as the powers that be / principle investors are happy and the financials look good (for CGC and the effect they have on Heritage Auctions) then I don't think they need to do anything.

 

Well they need to think forward about how to sustain profits, or generate new areas of revenue. And this is what they have done with the Wizard First intiative and the Conservation minded label changes.

 

I do not forsee CGC "Doing" anything that would directly benefit the collector base until they have a viable competitor. Feel free to disagree, but I have seen zero empirical evidence to support any benevolence thus far.

[Darthdiesel]

Maybe CGC should replace their 9.2/9.4/9.6/9.8/9.9 grades with simply 9.5-/9.5+.

 

That way...there would be less incentive to resubmit for incremental bumps.

 

I think CGC should change Wizard First to Darth First labels if I submitted enough books

[Norrin_Radd]

You meant "flack" right? Freudian slip?

 

signed - Evil Cartoonish CGC Basher!

 

flak also flack ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flk)

n.

 

1.

a. Antiaircraft artillery.

b. The bursting shells fired from such artillery.

2. Informal.

a. Excessive or abusive criticism.

b. Dissension; opposition.

 

 

signed - Adeptly Distracting CGC Apologist

 

Just shut the flak up!

[mica]

Didn't you tell someone else to go buy a dictionary?

 

Why don't you go outside for some exercise to work off some of this newfound aggression. And those cream pies.

Yep I found it.

Ironically it was to Red Hook which you said the following:

Brad,

 

Do yourself a favor and tell your family you want a dictionary for Christmas.

Regards, Btw I do like your Captain America sig. ( I threw that one in to be nice)

[divad]

jbud,

 

Like I said . . .

 

 

If you were Steve Borock, What would you do?

 

Stick my head in the sand . . .

[drbanner]

Thus, CGC is expected to (1) be lenient with grades, (2) be lenient with upgrading books, and (3) be lenient with what's considered restoration. CGC is simply living up to submitters' expectations.

 

The prices garnered by CGC books pretty much confirm that buyers don't believe CGC is lenient with grades, and based on my personal experience of collecting high grade books before CGC came around, I agree. In fact, I doubt you'll find many on here that view CGC's grading as "lenient" (outliers notwithstanding), regardless of whether or not they agree with CGC's policies on restoration, their relationship with Heritage, with PCS, etc.,.

 

CGC's handling and identifying restoration (pressing is not restoration, and GA books with slight resto getting Blue Labels) can certainly be considered lenient, but they are not lenient with grades.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "(2) be lenient with upgrading books"?