DD 168 CGC 9.6 WHITE

[BachelorOfComix]

I'm a youthful 25

You are wise beyond your years Lofwyr. Reading your posts, I could have sworn you were 40+.........

[lou_fine]

Gene;

 

How are you doing with your invesments in Valiants, Images, Good Girl books which Wizard was so hgih on when they first came out. Wizard was playing the con game whereby they would lead the market with hgih prices and have the market chase after their prices. I still remember a lot of your so-called younger Wizard crowd paying out over a hundred dollars a pop for some of the Valiant books. I guess these speculators must be very happy with their returns and continuing to invest into the latest hot books while they are sitting on their valueless Valiants.

 

As for me, I still remember buying a high-grade pedigree copy of All-Select Comics #1 for $1,200 back in 1992 (OPG $1500). A dealer was offering me $10,000 for this book in 1995 when it was guiding for only $3,000. I told him that he was out of his mind until he told me that he would have no problems selling it for $15,000. This is not a one-time fluke since I also pick up a bunch of high-grade Fox books from 1995 -1996 for approx. $1,000 each. I sold the least valuable of these books in one of the Greg Manning auctions in either 2000 or 2001 for over five times what I had paid for it as a test of the marketplace. Needless to say, I am holding onto the rest of the earlier high-grade Fox books as they continue to go up in value.

 

I am sure that you and the rest of the Wizard crowd in ten years from now will still be laughing at the GA collectors and their "forgotten" books while you are sitting there with your valuable stashes of Transformer, G.I. Joe, variant cover books, and whatever else is the latest hot trend.

[Darthdiesel]

I am sure that you and the rest of the Wizard crowd in ten years from now will still be laughing at the GA collectors

 

It is socially taboo to laugh at the dead....

[lou_fine]

Darthdiesel;

 

If you are comparing books, then wouldn't it be a lot fairer to compare semi-key books with other semi-key books. In other words, if you are talking about Daredevil #168 which features the first appearance of Elektra, than maybe you should be comparing it to a book like All-Star Comics #8 which features the first appearance of Wonder Woman. If you are talking about Bulletman #4, than maybe you should be comparing it to a book like Daredevil #44 or any of the other non-key Daredevil books.

 

As for whether any of my copies of DD #168 would come out CGC 9.6 or not, I have absolutely no idea since from what I've seen and from what I heard, the only thing consistent about CGC grading is their absolute INCONSISTENCY. They could take the same book and it can come back as a 9.4 or 9.2 or 9.6. I have also seen cases where their 9.6 looks nicer than their 9.8's. I believe that once you start hitting the higher grades, you are now basically paying for the label that CGC decides to put on the book at that particular point in time. The final number could be based upon what their mood is at that time, the last book they happen to grade, or whatever other factor may come into play. You are basically no longer paying for the book, just the label only!

 

One final point I want to make is that I have NEVER EVER lost a single penny on a Golden-Age book. I don't know if you can say the same thing about the newer books.

[murph0]

You've never heard of Bulletman? He's a guy with a bullet cap for a head. I'm not really sure what he does exactly but I think he has a female sidekick. I find it hard to believe that in 25 years of collecting you've never come across a book with Bulletman. I've seen dozens listed in Heritage catalogs.

 

Brian

[Darthdiesel]

If you are comparing books, then wouldn't it be a lot fairer to compare semi-key books with other semi-key books. In other words, if you are talking about Daredevil #168 which features the first appearance of Elektra, than maybe you should be comparing it to a book like All-Star Comics #8 which features the first appearance of Wonder Woman.

 

I would think the first app of WW is pretty key, but that's just because I like Wonder Woman. Not enough to blow money on a Golden Age NM copy however...

 

As for whether any of my copies of DD #168 would come out CGC 9.6 or not, I have absolutely no idea since from what I've seen and from what I heard, the only thing consistent about CGC grading is their absolute INCONSISTENCY. They could take the same book and it can come back as a 9.4 or 9.2 or 9.6. I have also seen cases where their 9.6 looks nicer than their 9.8's. I believe that once you start hitting the higher grades, you are now basically paying for the label that CGC decides to put on the book at that particular point in time. The final number could be based upon what their mood is at that time, the last book they happen to grade, or whatever other factor may come into play. You are basically no longer paying for the book, just the label only!

 

this is the standard anti-CGC rhetoric. I'm surprised the Marvel Pay Copy or the Heritage regrades were not thrown in there for effect. From what you've seen and heard is not enough. You want to know for sure - go try it out for yourself - you claim they are high grade - I challenge that and say there is NO WAY they are CGC 9.6's. You are not mentioning any real factors there. you want facts - there are pregraders, and 3 graders with one finalizer that comes up with the grade using a consensus, not what mood they are in or if what they ate for lunch disagreed with them. This statement totally attacks CGC's professionalism and questions their legitamacy as a business. I've resubmitted books twice before but received the same grade back? That is my personal experience with resubmitting, so I find them totally consistent with their grading at least on my books. I don't know why it is so hard to tell the difference between the higher grades. Ever think that the damage you see on higher grades that would disqualify them from that grade happened in the case. I can take my 9.8 moderns and shake the sh!te out of them and bang up and blunt the corners down to a 9.0. Downgrading Damage can and does happen inside the case. and those copies will be the ones passed off and recycled on eBay and are the ones CGC decriers harp on.

 

One final point I want to make is that I have NEVER EVER lost a single penny on a Golden-Age book. I don't know if you can say the same thing about the newer books

 

No smart businessman plans on selling their wares just to chalk up a loss. Any Modern slabbed book that I have not "made" (gotten slabbed) myself has been sold for profit. Even if my modern "hot" books sell at 9.99 - 19.99 ,they are selling at a profit...depending on whther I picked up the book or slabbed them myself.

 

I can't say the same for my Golden Age Dells and Roy Rogers Westerns however. Those books have been losses from the get go. I don;t think you could lose any money on your Golden Age either, especially when you bought them for 10 - 12 cents a piece off the rack!

[delekkerste]

How are you doing with your invesments in Valiants, Images, Good Girl books which Wizard was so hgih on when they first came out.

 

Lou, since you're new to the Forum, you should excuse the chuckles that many long-time Forumites undoubtedly expressed reading your post. My reputation as an anti-hype/anti-speculation analytical pragmatist is firmly entrenched on these Boards...I've written extensively on my "Me" page on eBay the past 3 years about the perils of "investing" in comics (I always put "investing" in quotations when referring to comics, because I can't keep a straight face if I have to call funny books a real asset class), particularly inflated Bronze & Modern books (you can check out my latest ravings here: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/de-lekkerste/ ). I didn't fall for the Image/Valiant banana in the tailpipe and as for variant covers, '80s revivals, etc., I've posted extensively about how this idiocy is both uninvestible and killing the hobby.

 

One point I have also written/posted about is the hubris of GA collectors who love their goofy '40s & '50s books with the cartoony art and the corn-ball dialogue and can't imagine why anyone would think differently, and who furthermore make their "investment" forecasts by looking in the rearview mirror and linearly extrapolating historical price performance indefinitely into the future. I'm not saying there are no 20-somethings buying GA books, but there aren't a lot of them. Some people will always enjoy this stuff, but that number is continously shrinking over time (definitely NOT a fringe view, by the way), and that will adversely impact prices at some point in the future, 99.9% guaranteed. If you think that these 20-somethings chasing Ultimate Spider-Man and Transformers are one day going to graduate to collecting All-Star Comics or More Fun Comics, you are seriously mistaken.

 

But let's look beyond "investment" considerations...I don't buy comics for "investment". I buy to read and to collect nice CGC'd copies of issues I really like. I find GA books, with the exception of pre-code horror, to be unreadable. I get negative enjoyment reading them...wasting time reading GA DC books is time I could be catching up on reading I enjoy. You can rant all you want about classics and whatnot, but that antiquated style just doesn't do it for me, nor for a great number of younger collectors. I'm personally not a fan of either Todd McFarlane and Venom, but no matter what you or I say or do, people will still want copies of ASM #300 30 years from now...can you say the same about Bulletman #4?

 

Gene

[delekkerste]

I find it hard to believe that in 25 years of collecting you've never come across a book with Bulletman. I've seen dozens listed in Heritage catalogs.

 

#1 - OK, maybe I came across him at some point, but evidently he is not very memorable since I can't seem to recall him.

 

#2 - A miniscule percentage of comic collectors have ever seen a Heritage or other high-end, high $$$ comic catalog...I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of regular collectors (*not* the types that congregate on these Forums) are blissfully unaware of Bulletman and probably not losing any sleep over it.

 

Gene

[Rickdogg]

Bullet who?

[ubiquiti]

Nice avatar, Rick. - But you changed your handle...I htought one couldn't do that...or is it only reserved for the sherlock holmes of the board?

 

I'm personally betting on a HUGE Black Panther comeback and hoping my investing on Jungle Action 5 and 70s BP pays off big time. Once The Crew becomes the best selling Marvel comic of all time - it will all be downhill...........................................................................I'll be retiring in Vegas to get some big payouts on the progressive slots!

 

 

 

 

[Aman619]

I still cant really believe anyone here spends hundreds andthousands on comics without thinking of their ultimate $$ return at some point (hence investment potential) but, thats what I keep reading here.

 

But I agree with you on the future of Bulletman 4 and the rest of these long-dead also-ran Golden Age characters...and the limited future they face in the minds of collectors going forward. Ive got a bunch of Golden Age keys...but none of them are those obscure ALREADY mostly forgotten titles. I just dont see all that many collectors "graduating" to any Golden Age books OTHER than the very top keys of the still-viable (published) characters.

 

Just like 99% of the well-known collectibles of the 1800s that are no longer collected by ANYBODY, the 20th century favorites will disappear one by one also, until nobody is left to care about any of the characters that havent been seen for decades....or by anyone still alive.

 

BUT---I still wouldnt buy that Daredevil 168 for $500 either!! I find it impossible to believe that these inflated prices can survive the eventual oversupply once they all get graded or come up for sale. I realize the 9.6s and 9.8s will still only be in double figures in the census (at least the 9.8s will) ...but just how deep do these people think the comic-CARING/buying base really is?

 

 

[Bronty]

I find it hard to believe that in 25 years of collecting you've never come across a book with Bulletman. I've seen dozens listed in Heritage catalogs.

 

#1 - OK, maybe I came across him at some point, but evidently he is not very memorable since I can't seem to recall him.

 

Heritage catalogs aside, Bulletman and Nickel Comics books (where he also appeared if I recall) have regularly been pictured items in the overstreet guides over the years

 

#2 - A miniscule percentage of comic collectors have ever seen a Heritage or other high-end, high $$$ comic catalog...I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of regular collectors (*not* the types that congregate on these Forums) are blissfully unaware of Bulletman

 

too true! He looks like some kinda "condom-man" with that funky reservoir-tip helmet of his

[delekkerste]

I still cant really believe anyone here spends hundreds andthousands on comics without thinking of their ultimate $$ return at some point (hence investment potential) but, thats what I keep reading here.

 

I can honestly say that I am not thinking of any ultimate $$$ endgame with regards to my collection. I only spend discretionary income (i.e., money that I can afford to lose 100%) on comics...in the past, I did occasionally buy a few books to flip or speculate on, but nowadays, I don't even do that anymore. Intentions and situations can always change, of course, but I have always intended to pass down my collection to my eventual heirs and to never sell. That said, I'm sure that many collectors out there are motiviated in whole or in part, consciously or sub-consciously, by the profit motive, whether they care to admit it or not.

 

 

Just like 99% of the well-known collectibles of the 1800s that are no longer collected by ANYBODY, the 20th century favorites will disappear one by one also, until nobody is left to care about any of the characters that havent been seen for decades....or by anyone still alive.

 

Great point, one that I have made myself on numerous occasions. It's tough to recognize while this process is happening, particularly if you are passionate about the collectible in question, which is why history keeps repeating itself. It's even tougher to realize if you are a young collector of the dying asset class (like Lowfyr and his GA collecting), because there is the tendency to extrapolate one's own motivations and experiences to the general collecting population.

 

It reminds me of a class on genetic modeling that I took back in college...a "deleterious recessive" gene might be expected to die out quickly in the overall population because it kills its hosts. Not true - it actually takes quite a long time to die out, and doesn't do so completely as it turns out. Kind of like what will happen to GA collecting - it will deteriorate over time, but the Lowfyrs of the world will continue to sustain it at some level and it won't die out completely even after the children of yesteryear have passed away.

 

 

BUT---I still wouldnt buy that Daredevil 168 for $500 either!! I find it impossible to believe that these inflated prices can survive the eventual oversupply once they all get graded or come up for sale.

 

I'm sure you'll be proven correct on this...but sometimes I like to take an irrational "flier" every now and again on a book I really want.

 

Gene

[Lantern]

 

Not to anyone inparticular, but just to refresh everyones memory:

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

Gene;

 

Didn't get a chance to respond to your reply since I went to sleep last night. You are correct in stating that I am new to this forum. I am in complete agreement with your point of view about anti-hype and anti-speculation. I also agree with your point of view that the Golden-Age market will eventually dwindle down. This will happen to all periods within the comic book market, however, not just the GA period. The important point to note, however, is that the very limited supply of high grade GA books even in the face of dwindling demand will help them maintain their values. The question is, will the large supplies of the hot 90's books be able to keep up with the dwindling demand for these books in 50 years from now.

 

I think more collectors in 2003 is aware of Bulletman which is basically a second tier character from a second tier publisher in the early 1940's as compared to something equivalent such as Youngblood #4 or Hawkman #4 (4th series). Will collectors be aware of Youngblood in 2053 which was basically nothing more than a second tier group from a second tier publisher in the 1990's. Will collectors in 2053 be as interested in Hawkman who also features a female sidekick similar to Bulletman. It's quite possible that the awareness and interest level for Bulletman in 2003 could be higher than the awareness and interest level for either Youngblood or Hawkman in 2053. I don't think that collectos in 2053 will be graduating to these types of books from the 1990's. Only time will tell.

 

As for comparing Spider-Man #300 to Bulletman #4, this is like comparing apples to oranges. Spider-Man is the most popular character to come out of the Silver-Age. To do a proper comparison, it should be going against a book like Batman #100 or Superman #100. In fifty years from now, collectors will still be wanting a copy of any three of these books. The only problem is that two of them will be much more tougher to find in high grade.

[lou_fine]

Darthdiesel;

 

I am glad to hear that you are making money on the Modern books. I believe that it is also possible to make money on the GA books. This would even apply to the much forgotten Dell books which you keep referring to. I believe the problem with your copies is that they are basically reading copies which are meant for reading as oppossed to buy and sell for an eventual profit. You should not be comparing high grade books from one period to reading copies from another period because the intention of both is for different purposes.

 

I was lucky enough to have purchased a bunch of high grade Crackajack Funnies (Dell file copies) from a dealer back in 1993 for a 30% discount to guide which average out to approx. $70 a copy. These dozen books ran intermittenly from issue #4 through to issue #43. Just for fun, I put one of these books (issue #22?) up for auction through Greg Manning in 2000 or 2001. It came back from CGC with a 9.6 and manage to fetch over $600 in the auction. I still think that the book should have come back as a 9.8 since it was basically flawless, especially when you compare it with some of the GA 9.6's which you see on the Heritage auction sites nowadays. This proves that you can still make money on unknown Dells and I am still holding onto my other copies which are in equivalent shape.

 

Although I am not willing to spend $300 for a copy of Daredevil #168, I am also not willing to spend $600 on a copy of Crackajack Funnies #22. If I was forced to pick one, however, I would still get the CF#22 for $600 even though it is a non-key book which feature absolutely nothing as compared to spending $300 for a DD #168 which featured the first appearance of Elektra. This would be based strictly upon the combination of age and rarity in grade since I believe that a CGC 9.6 uncommon book from 1940 is a better buy than a CGC 9.6 common book from 1980.

 

As for buying GA books for $.10 off the newsstand, I was not even born than. I was not even old enough to have bought SA books for $.12 off the newsstand. My GA purchases have all come from the late 80's and up.

 

 

 

 

[Darthdiesel]

Reading copies?

 

I don't think so...

 

I thought Golden Age was a "good" investment in any grade since the supply is dwindling or practically non existent compared to Moderns...

 

Yes my WEsterns may be beat up but I thought Fine for Golden Age books was like having Near Mint for Moderns.

 

Take a look at these and let me know if they are ALL reading copies. Some may be but, for the most part, I don't think so. I have a feeling that some folks may just be saying that to get their hands on Golden Age books for lower than Guide. But I can also see that interest is non existent for Dells and Westerns on eBay. I've been frustrated with these books ever since they came ionto my possession. I've been marketing them for over a year and no bites at all. I've never held a modern book that I was trying to sell for that long...in ANY grade.

 

John Wayne in the Conqueror

Conqueror back

 

Hennessey back

Zane GRey Mounting Mountees book - those silly Canadians

 

Back of Zane GRey book

 

More westerns - Roy Rogers :

 

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr10.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr10bk.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr6.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr6bk.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr8.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/bccomics/wr8bk.jpg

 

 

I know what guuide is, - give me your expert Golden Age evaluation on these please.

 

[Paradise_Comics]

Hey Darth, I think you're on the right track going with the golden age right now. You can pick many of them up for a steal. Everyone is looking for 9.4-9.8 silver and bronze and ignoring the rarity factor of the 1940's books. I saw some Captain America's selling at Heritage for 70% of guide.

Peter

[Bronty]

Darth, I hate to break it to you but with the exception of that Hennessey book, those are ALL reading copies.

 

The other thing you have to understand is that not all GA is the same. If you had early timely's, even if they looked like they were rescued from the trash, you would have instant buyers for them.

 

What you have here is a collection of (mostly) low grade Dell Westerns... these are some of the slowest books in the entire hobby! They do not sell well at anywhere near guide and haven't for a long time now.

 

May I suggest a little research next time

[Darthdiesel]

Darth, I hate to break it to you but with the exception of that Hennessey book, those are ALL reading copies.

 

 

That's too bad...even the Hennesy is not fetching diddly on eBay, unless you are showcase, who sold 2 cpoies at lower grade than mine for $15 while I got not one bid.. no biggie.

 

The other thing you have to understand is that not all GA is the same. If you had early timely's, even if they looked like they were rescued from the trash, you would have instant buyers for them.

 

I understand that. My Battle issues with Kirby cover went no problem.

 

What you have here is a collection of (mostly) low grade Dell Westerns... these are some of the slowest books in the entire hobby! They do not sell well at anywhere near guide and haven't for a long time now.

 

They are pieces of garbage in my opinion as well. Not even good reads.

 

May I suggest a little research next time

 

No big deal for me. I just want to get rid of these at decent prices. I have done some research in to Golden Age and these are leftover books I've had in boxes from finds/earlier buys, nothing I sought personally to own for myself.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of Golden Age fetishists here like to make the broad generalization that ANY GOlden Age book is a smarter investment than ANY Modern book simply because it is a tried and true proven collectible. we;ve had this argument on here many times. To each their own. It is just raises my ire to see statements like that made on the money spent for Elektra's 1s app on DD 168 CGC 9.6...folks dropping money on modern books as lacking common sense. Well, if I dropped money on these books I showed you just because they were Golden Age, then I'd definitely be lacking that same common sense.

 

it al depends on what books we are talking about - there is money to be made in all genres and right now, DD 168 carries high enough of a price tag for dealers to be interested in selling them. Just because you buy a DD 168 instead of Bullet man 4 doesn't imply a "lack of common sense".