OA collecting - how big is the hobby, really?

[RDK]

My question about the size of the hobby is a little different. I have no doubt that a handful of bigtime collectors/dealers own a lot of the "good" stuff, but what about the "average" to "weak" pieces? If you pick any random comic, many/most of the pages lack familiar heroes (well, maybe in their civilian i.d.s), action, or any strong visual styling. I'm generalizing here, but you all know what i mean - there's usually only a small percentage of the pages of any given issues that seem really "collectible" and bring the top prices. And with so many thousands of issues published over the years (and let's just say post-1970), and tens of thousands of pages (many of which aren't that special) - well, just where are they? There just doesn't seem to be that many OA collectors out there who sock away the "low value" pages. Are there guys out there with 1000s of pages?

[heartened]

Are there guys out there with 1000s of pages?

 

Oh, yes, there are.

[blowout]

Are there guys out there with 1000s of pages?

 

Oh, yes, there are.

 

Yeah, just throw that out there and leave us hanging Hari!

[irchooker]

Are there guys out there with 1000s of pages?

 

When you ask 1000's, do you mean 1-2? In a couple of weeks I'll be hanging out with 2 collectors whom own 5+ each. For those big, old school collectors, think 10's of... Wanna guess at the number of pages owned by Los Bros Donnelly?

[FlComicFan]

I think a lot of art is in the hands of people who either stopped collecting comics and art many years ago or arent "actively" collecting. Every now and then you will see a group of pages on ebay from a non collector who picked them up when they were dirt cheap and not heavily collected and just realised they have some value. A lot of stuff might also not be out there (available for sale)because those that own it dont think its time to sell yet. Plus there are only a few big time art dealers and if they were smart it would be in their best interest to slowly leak out art. I dont think they hobby is big enough to handle it when a lot of good stuff hits at one time. When a large Kirby art collection was sold off it depressed Kirby prices for a while till the best stuff found permanent homes.

[comix4fun]

When a large Kirby art collection was sold off it depressed Kirby prices for a while till the best stuff found permanent homes.

 

It took a good 10 years before the market recovered from that Christopher Collection sale....I agree..

 

 

Imagine if Burkey sold all his Romita at once.

There would be enough for everyone in the hobby to have a page...

 

 

Chris

[heartened]

When a large Kirby art collection was sold off it depressed Kirby prices for a while till the best stuff found permanent homes.

 

It took a good 10 years before the market recovered from that Christopher Collection sale....I agree..

 

 

Imagine if Burkey sold all his Romita at once.

There would be enough for everyone in the hobby to have a page...

 

 

Chris

 

The art market is probably 10X as big now as when the Christopher collection came out. This hobby is growing at an alarming pace, in terms of the number of collectors. I think it's quickly getting big enough to absorb even very large collections. There appear to be a large number of collectors these days that drop over 10K on a piece of art. This definitely was NOT the case only four or five years ago.

[RDK]

Imagine if Burkey sold all his Romita at once.

There would be enough for everyone in the hobby to have a page...

 

That was my point!

 

But that's also high-demand Romita pages. What about the 1000s of Curt Swan Superman pages or Rich Buckler or Al Milgrom?

[heartened]

I know there are some early ASM covers out there...The 39 and 40 were recently sold (within last 2 yrs) but other than that, I'm not sure. I know there are more knowledgable people out here that may know....Hari, Stephen (both) , Dan F., Chris C. , etc.....

 

#41 and #42 sold relatively recently too.

[Bronty]

I think this board alone has probably helped grow the hobby quite a bit. I am personally much more aware of OA as a hobby simply reading these posts and getting exposure to what people are collecting. Can't help but think that there's currently quite a speculative element though... at least that's my take from the outside. Or if not speculative then... uninformed.

 

New collectors in all hobbies tend to overpay I think. And in art I think the new collector's fascination with the fact that it's one of a kind is going to wear off sooner or later. It may be one of a kind but there's always another grail just beyond the horizon.

 

I think the medium term looks quite good for art but there will be a scandal sooner or later when the money gets big enough (and it's getting there..). Someone will start making realistic lightbox OA forgeries IMO... the money's too good. It can't be that hard to fake vintage OA board or publisher stamps. Will just take some ingenuity from an enterprising individual like Mr Koos

 

And that will do a lot to erase people confidence in OA as a haven from concerns like undisclosed resto. But that's speculation for now.

[pkveronese]

I think this board alone has probably helped grow the hobby quite a bit. I am personally much more aware of OA as a hobby simply reading these posts and getting exposure to what people are collecting. Probably a lot of people who've been turned off comics for one reason or another are collecting art. Can't help but think that there's currently quite a speculative element though... at least that's my take from the outside.

 

I have to agree with you there. Other than Comic Art-L, this is about the only place there is a postiive, open discussion about OA (and also, the "L" can be a little intimidating to a beginning collector).

From my personal experience, I was getting sick of chasing "perfect" back issues and trying to finish a 35-Cent Variant run. Collecting OA has been a wonderful way to bring back the "fun" aspect of the hobby. Also, I think I've read more comics 18 months since I started collecting OA heavily than in the the five years before it. That's definitely been a good thing .

[delekkerste]

Can't help but think that there's currently quite a speculative element though... at least that's my take from the outside. Or if not speculative then... uninformed.

 

I agree. A lot of people have come into this hobby in the past 5 or 6 years (myself included) and they have only known rapidly escalating prices (at least on the better pieces). So, why not drop $1k, $5k, $10k, $25k or $50k if your expectation is that prices will be 20% higher a year from now? The real test will come when there is a hiccup in the market. It's at that point that we'll see how big/deep this hobby really is.

 

There's no doubt that more people have been getting into the hobby (and I do agree that this Board has played a part), but it seems as though the buying has been more concentrated in the lower value pieces (say, $20-$2,000). Will these people eventually work their way up to mid-four and five-figure plus pieces? Because it's getting to the point where it takes a few grand even to pick up just about any Byrne X-Men page, for example. How many people coming into this hobby are willing to lay down that kind of cash and how much big-ticket buying is largely done as a result of selling or trading appreciated artwork acquired in the 1980s and 1990s? If you missed out on getting art on the cheap back then and are forced to pay cash for art at today's prices, it seems as though you have to be a surgeon, law firm partner, hedge fund manager, early Google employee, trustifarian or rock star to be able to afford anything really nice. I worry that the market for the better pieces has gotten so out of hand that more and more people are going to be priced out and deterred from entering the hobby.

[westform]

There have always been nay-sayers in the hobby... yes, when great Romita covers were going for $200 people in the hobby said that was crazy! That will never change; there will always be glass half empty people. But, since it is a hobby to many it just doesn't matter. We keep buying and trading and buying to acquire the pieces that jazz us. I just bought two cool Romita covers one for 40k and one for 20k cash that probably would have gone for $200 when I first started collecting. You can either sit on the sidelines and shake your head as prices go up, or jump in and have fun. Yes, the pieces could be worth less in a year, or two, or twenty. Yes, the stock market could tumble, yes, we could all face nuclear armeggedon and all our assets could plummet... but, the idea is to enjoy life... so I'll keep buying as long as I have the means, no matter what happens to the market. I see this hobby as half full and I'll stay til the glass runs over... You want a sure thing- spend more time with your kids! You want to participate in a rip roaring blast of popular culture through a one of a kind visual medium by ponying up and digging deep then welcome to the rollicking world of original art. Enjoy!

[COMICKINGS]

Imagine if Burkey sold all his Romita at once.

There would be enough for everyone in the hobby to have a page...

 

That was my point!

 

But that's also high-demand Romita pages. What about the 1000s of Curt Swan Superman pages or Rich Buckler or Al Milgrom?

 

Where are those Rich Buckler pages?!! His FF stuff inked by Sinnott is some of the best FF art out there!! Of course Sinnott is the king of all inkers,but Rich had some really nice stuff goin on in the early - mid '70's!

[comix4fun]

#41 and #42 sold relatively recently too.

 

 

As did 47 ....but I am trying to remember 39 and before covers.....

 

Chris

[Bronty]

well that's a good attitude Dan, and you love it and can afford what you spend then I totally agree.. I'm just not so sure everyone's in the same boat.

[delekkerste]

But, since it is a hobby to many it just doesn't matter. We keep buying and trading and buying to acquire the pieces that jazz us. I just bought two cool Romita covers one for 40k and one for 20k cash that probably would have gone for $200 when I first started collecting. You can either sit on the sidelines and shake your head as prices go up, or jump in and have fun.

 

I noticed that you've been trying to sell a lot of art recently, presumably to help finance these purchases. I'm guessing that a lot of this art was acquired at much lower prices given that you're a long time collector. But what about the new or potential collector who wants to collect Spidey covers but doesn't have the luxury of having a highly appreciated collection to sell off? One look at the sticker prices and most people will give up before they even start. It's amazing to me to see people noticing OA for the first time at the big conventions and inquiring about the prices, only to have the dealer respond with a multi-thousand dollar amount. They leave, tails between their legs, never to return.

 

The market for nicer pieces has become a very exclusive domain, whereby only long-time collectors who have appreciated wampum to sell/trade and those few relative newcomers who are able and willing to splash out the big bucks can play. Given that the supply of the former category is more or less fixed, what is the realistic potential and outlook for new entrants from the second category that will be playing in that high-end sandbox with the bar set at current levels (and rising)? Just a thought...

[clemso]

When a large Kirby art collection was sold off it depressed Kirby prices for a while till the best stuff found permanent homes.

 

It took a good 10 years before the market recovered from that Christopher Collection sale....I agree..

 

 

Imagine if Burkey sold all his Romita at once.

There would be enough for everyone in the hobby to have a page...

 

 

Chris

 

Lets try and get our facts straight. The Tony Christopher Collection was only sold SIX years ago. Feb of 2000. Considering the shear volume of Tony's collection, I think the Kirby market has recovered reasonably well in those 6 years, but obviously when I look at the prices of some choice Romita, Ditko Spider-man and Byrne X-men. Kirby has still got a bit of catching up to do considering that he is the King.

 

Clem...

[clemso]

There have always been nay-sayers in the hobby... yes, when great Romita covers were going for $200 people in the hobby said that was crazy! That will never change; there will always be glass half empty people. But, since it is a hobby to many it just doesn't matter. We keep buying and trading and buying to acquire the pieces that jazz us. I just bought two cool Romita covers one for 40k and one for 20k cash that probably would have gone for $200 when I first started collecting. You can either sit on the sidelines and shake your head as prices go up, or jump in and have fun. Yes, the pieces could be worth less in a year, or two, or twenty. Yes, the stock market could tumble, yes, we could all face nuclear armeggedon and all our assets could plummet... but, the idea is to enjoy life... so I'll keep buying as long as I have the means, no matter what happens to the market. I see this hobby as half full and I'll stay til the glass runs over... You want a sure thing- spend more time with your kids! You want to participate in a rip roaring blast of popular culture through a one of a kind visual medium by ponying up and digging deep then welcome to the rollicking world of original art. Enjoy!

 

I like your attitude Dan. It must be a real rush to drop $40k on some thing you clearly love.

 

Clem....

[heartened]

Can't help but think that there's currently quite a speculative element though... at least that's my take from the outside. Or if not speculative then... uninformed.

 

I agree. A lot of people have come into this hobby in the past 5 or 6 years (myself included) and they have only known rapidly escalating prices (at least on the better pieces). So, why not drop $1k, $5k, $10k, $25k or $50k if your expectation is that prices will be 20% higher a year from now? The real test will come when there is a hiccup in the market. It's at that point that we'll see how big/deep this hobby really is.

 

There's no doubt that more people have been getting into the hobby (and I do agree that this Board has played a part), but it seems as though the buying has been more concentrated in the lower value pieces (say, $20-$2,000). Will these people eventually work their way up to mid-four and five-figure plus pieces? Because it's getting to the point where it takes a few grand even to pick up just about any Byrne X-Men page, for example. How many people coming into this hobby are willing to lay down that kind of cash and how much big-ticket buying is largely done as a result of selling or trading appreciated artwork acquired in the 1980s and 1990s? If you missed out on getting art on the cheap back then and are forced to pay cash for art at today's prices, it seems as though you have to be a surgeon, law firm partner, hedge fund manager, early Google employee, trustifarian or rock star to be able to afford anything really nice. I worry that the market for the better pieces has gotten so out of hand that more and more people are going to be priced out and deterred from entering the hobby.

 

Hi Gene,

 

How is this different than comic book collecting? Beginners don't even dream of owning a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15, or any of the first 10 issues of ASM or FF, etc. They start small, accrue wealth, trade up, etc. And, many are happy with what they can actually afford, and limit themselves to "minor keys", complete runs of lesser titles or characters, or other focuses that don't overextend themselves.

 

Just because OA is a relatively newer hobby people seem to think that they should be entitled to getting in on the ground floor. Contrary to what most believe, there are very few people who can actually claim to have done that. You and I both started collecting at the same time. I ask you: when we bought art in 2000, did we feel prices were already too high and we already missed the boat? I know I did. Compared to the new buyers, I'm one of the "lucky ones" who got in "early", but it sure as Hell didn't feel that way at the time.

 

Here's another thought: I bought my DD 158 page for 750 dollars back in 1999. That same year, I bought my X-Men #4 comic book for 1000. The DD 158 page is probably valued between 5 and 10K. The X-Men #4 is sitting on Shmell's site with a 20K price tag. So, you tell me, in which hobby has "the market for the better pieces [has] gotten so out of hand that more and more people are going to be priced out and deterred from entering the hobby."