OA collecting - how big is the hobby, really?

[heartened]

If people on here say that they buy their art/comics because they love them and they don't care if they make money or lose money, they are lying. Sorry, but no one wants to take a bath on what they've bought.

 

...

 

I am always amazed by people that have such strong opinions, rant about market crashes and how people should wake up and put there money elsewhere and all this nonsense....yet turn around and proudly display a piece or comic they spent 5 figures on....

This is to me is "actions speak louder than words" ....while everyone has a opinion and is entitled to voice it, (which is why we are all on here) I have to wonder what exactly is their motive.

If the hobby is so bad and people are so naive for buying this stuff, then move onto something else.....seems simple...

 

This sounds like a pretty undisguised jibe in my direction. First of all, I have not once said this "hobby is so bad" or that "people are so naive for buying this stuff". I have expressed an opinion, based on the facts of the situation and my own experience in dealing with markets, of what I think is going to happen in the future. That is at odds with the consensus, to be sure, though the consensus is always wrong at inflection points which I believe we are at/nearing.

 

I have *not*, however, told anybody to sell out or to move onto something else. From an *investment* standpoint, I have said there are better places to put your money, but I haven't told any fan/collector not to buy OA because that's their own business. There should be no wondering "what is exactly is [my] motive". I'm not sure if your comment about people lying if they say they do not care if they make or lose money was directed at me or Dan F. and his hyperbolic comments in his last post, but I can tell you that I personally have no intention to *ever* sell my OA unless I have no interested heirs to pass it down to. I'm not counting on realizing a penny from my collection in the future - I am happy to spend what I spend (which I'm sure is fairly low on a percentage basis compared to most collectors) so I can enjoy the artwork throughout my lifetime. Might as well buy stuff I like rather than following the recent trend of ponying up big bucks for contemporary fine art of questionable merit. There's no agenda here and the fact that people are getting so worked up about what I'm saying leads me to take a page from Tth2's book and say that maybe it's a good time to be a contrarian about the OA hobby/market.

 

Hi Gene,

 

I know where you're coming fun, and I know that you are indeed a true fan of the hobby. You enjoy the art, and you buy what you like, not what others value. That is the way to do it, as you will never lose! You do not have a hidden agenda. People are probably getting upset because you come across a little paternalistic and protective, constantly warning people to "be careful". Remember, you're dealing with us comic geeks who were told this as kids by our mothers (and as adults by our wives!).

 

 

[westform]

This is NOT to Mr. Deli (since no one will ever convince you that you are ever wrong);

 

He is wrong on both counts. First, as he is apparently in the financial services industry, he should know that my decision to pay CASH is independent of where I get the money. I am in the same boat as everyone else when it comes to shelling out $. I can take gains from my comic art collection and invest them in the stock market or real estate. Moreover, I can take funds from my portfolio of equities and put them in comic art. I put cash in because I believe in the hobby and am still having fun.

 

He is very wrong when he says that only old timers are buying the big pieces. That is the opposite of the truth and has no basis in fact. It only shows perhaps that he is out of the loop as it were in the hobby. I have seen, my friends in the hobby have seen and any dealer you ask has seen tremendous growth in new collectors... and collectors who are buying the big pieces. This actually accounts for much of the price increases and scarcity for premium pieces over the past few years.

 

Sorry to be harsh on Mr. Deli, but he just doesn't know what he's talking about in this respect and since he is consistently dogging on my hobby I feel the need to rebut. Buy what you can afford, buy the best that you can afford and you will not go wrong. I have never been disappointed... except when I pass on pieces that I should have bought. There are plenty of good deals and great pieces in all price ranges, and there is no reason why anyone who wants to jump in shouldn't. Dan F.

 

 

 

But, since it is a hobby to many it just doesn't matter. We keep buying and trading and buying to acquire the pieces that jazz us. I just bought two cool Romita covers one for 40k and one for 20k cash that probably would have gone for $200 when I first started collecting. You can either sit on the sidelines and shake your head as prices go up, or jump in and have fun.

 

I noticed that you've been trying to sell a lot of art recently, presumably to help finance these purchases. I'm guessing that a lot of this art was acquired at much lower prices given that you're a long time collector. But what about the new or potential collector who wants to collect Spidey covers but doesn't have the luxury of having a highly appreciated collection to sell off? One look at the sticker prices and most people will give up before they even start. It's amazing to me to see people noticing OA for the first time at the big conventions and inquiring about the prices, only to have the dealer respond with a multi-thousand dollar amount. They leave, tails between their legs, never to return.

 

The market for nicer pieces has become a very exclusive domain, whereby only long-time collectors who have appreciated wampum to sell/trade and those few relative newcomers who are able and willing to splash out the big bucks can play. Given that the supply of the former category is more or less fixed, what is the realistic potential and outlook for new entrants from the second category that will be playing in that high-end sandbox with the bar set at current levels (and rising)? Just a thought...

[jbud73]

Well I think the answer for the newbies (and that's me - owning 10 pieces) is probably somewhere in between what Dan and Gene have taken as psoitions. I can't think that jumping in at a 20K piece right off the bat would be very sound advice for the majority of people in any collectibles hobby. More likely than not you are simply going to over pay with that strategy and I can't think of many people to whom that would not be bothersome.

 

On the other hand Dan has a point that if you buy something, even if its expensive, buy what you like and can afford and in the over all scheme of things you will be on the right track. I think it might be safe to say that the a large % of the swell in OA are people from the comic collecting hobby. While the two are distinct I think there parallels are pretty apparant. I can also think of reasoning why the OA hobby could see a continued rise in escalation for the near future.

 

If you agree with my hypothesis that more and more new participants in the hobby will come from the comic collecting hobby then I can think of a few striong indicators why this will continue and even increase in nature. The first idea is which collectors are most likely to make the transition - it seems most likely that these will be High Grade collectors. After all OA shares its price point in this arena with even basic cover and slashes costing in excess ok 1K on average. With the ever increasing escalation of the HG comics market, I think a lot of collectors are asking themselves, what are they really getting for their money.

 

The huge differential in price from grade to grade - the ever present subjectivity in grading, the scandals that have ROCKED the High Grade Market. Donut likes to comment that these only effect the top 5% or less, but I believe that this top 5% is where the pool of OA collectors tends to come from. Sure there are pitfalls in OA too, but think about the attractiveness to the HG collector who has to put up with issues like the census (you are always getting Top Census in OA), the re-grading, the manipulation of grade. raw vs. slabbed and the issues revolving around restoration. Plus the mind set of the HG collector to try and own the best - this is guaranteed in OA by definition on each piece they obtain.

 

Other indicators - there is absolutely no reason to buy a HG comic from a cosumption standpoint - almost everthing is available in TPB form. The presentation standpoint - how many people buy a HG book and slap it in a cardboard box never to see the light of day for years. The display / show off potential has high drawing appeal IMO.

 

Finally the disparity between modern Story and Art. My personal opinion is that the House of Ideas has run out of them and if it were not for Identity Crisis, the only DC's worth reading in the past 5 years have been the Vertigo titles. The story lines have become predictable and stagnant, especially for older collectors who have been around for 10, 20, 30 or more years. The Art on the other hand has seen some awesome new talent enter the field and the quality has really seen a rebirth from the mass proliferation of dreck in the mid 90s.

 

Last - is the idea of OA as the Final Frontier. Sooner or later the collector will accomplish their goals - the run gets completed. You have to dig for new things to collect, the utility of your purchase is not the same. There is a thread in General by G-man, a seasoned collector with an appeal, what do I collect now? I personally am not there yet, BUT I can see myself getting there and I'm only 30. For the Copper Kid who has finished their BA and SA want list, those books that were oh so unattainable in their youth and who has NO identification with GA comics (they simply do not bridge the generation gap) I have to ask myself whats next??? Am I going to plunk down 1-2K on a mid grade copy of, er Police Comics - Blazing Comics - Funny this or that Comics??? You've gotta be me. Those books have as much in common with Wolfman - Shooter - O'Neil - Miller written // Zeck - Perez - Sienkiewicz drawn books as Howdy Doodie has with Star Wars.

 

So what do I collect if I still like comics? Well I gotta tell you that late BA / Copper age / Modern Age art is looking pretty appealing right now. Would I plunk 20K down on a Romita Spidey?? No I'd buy a new car or sock more money away for the House that's coming around the corner. But would I plunk down 500 - 1K for a nice copper splash or 2K for a cover. Ya I think I would and I'm probably not alone.

 

PS: The biggest barrier to entry for the newer OA collectors that I know because we both collect HG Comics is dealer knowledge. For example there is a very short list of Comic book dealers that I would drop 1K or more with. What my experience in the sole collectibles market I know (comics) has taught me is that in an unregulated marketplace the scum will usually rise along with, or faster than the cream. This goes hand in hand with the lack of price guide or other pricing source. Even with the OS guide you have to do so much research to gain an understanding in the comics market, especially the HG market. In the OA market I have bought most of my pieces off the artist directly at cons and through the internet. I simply do not have a vibe for the dealers and the reps yet and that has been the biggest impediment to my spending money on OA.

[westform]

jbud; I hear what you are saying. Did want to correct that I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and plunk down 20k on art. 10k will be fine... seriously though, just wanted to point out that this is not some kind of dying hobby or one where the old guard are pushing their pieces on newbies by duping them into believeing this stuff has high value. A lot of us know what we are doing, enjoy it, and will continue to participate in the hobby.

 

.... plus whatever I said before. Dan

[jjeanius]

That's exactly it. I think as collectors we all go through an evolution. Over the years my collecting goals have changed, but I've ALWAYS been a collector. And, for me, I get just as much enjoyment from the "thrill of the hunt" as I do from owning some of my favorites...if not more. I've collected a number of different things through my life, from toys (as a kid), to comics, to baseball cards, to Absolut Vodka ads, back to comics...I completed my nice mid-grade run of AF 15 and ASM, needed another challenge...sold the ASM's, started collecting mid-grade New Trend EC's...got to the point where I was only a handful of issues away from a complete set, got tired of spending all of this money on something that just sat in a box in my closet that I didn't get to really enjoy all that often, sold the comics, moved on to OA...and again, the same within OA. Set your sites on one goal, once you attain it, you aim a little bit higher. It doesn't matter what your budget is, there's always a "next step" or higher goal...especially in OA, where the prices range so drastically. The sandbox is plenty big, though, and there's something for everyone...and for every price range. So there's also competition for everyone, which keeps it interesting. I guess once you "master" the OA market you can move on to collecting yachts, or something...but not many of us are ever going to be in that league...even if we eventually get to the 20k+ territory.

 

OA certainly offers a few things that other hobbies don't, though...the "one of a kind" factor allows EVERYONE to feel special about their collection, regardless of the price point. And if you like having art on your walls as I do, you can enjoy it EACH AND EVERY DAY, rather than just having a collection in your closet or basement.

 

Just my two cents...

 

Court

[jbud73]

Hey thanks Dan I have really appreciated your posts in this forum and the insight into many aspects of the OA hobby. Gene is also one of my favorite posters here on the boards, I like to refer to him as the "sober second thought" of the CGC Forum. Its really easy to get 'group think' around here as everybodies passion kinda fuels your own. Like putting a junkie in a room full of junkies and nothing but product on the table . Gene is often able to separate himself from that and point out some opinions that may run contrary - its probably what makes him a good financial analyst as he can devulge himself of emotion.

 

I too have to echo Andrew (COI's) take on things - its kinda like stepping into the great unknown, we both know alot about comics, but there's this whole other entity out there that's appealing to the comic collector in us, but we also bring the lessons learned in the comics hobby with us and a lot of that baggage makes us wary. PS - I probably would have bought those ASM's off you Andy if I wasn't saving for an OA purchase

 

I also like the different facets of the hobby. I may never own the cover to NTT #1, but I can pay a contemporary artist I like to do a cover receation. Or, ideas like Chris has come up with in his trophy wall commisions. I love stuff like that, its creative and cool at the same time. I really can't say how much the OA presentation appeals to me. I go home where my 12 to 15 thousand comics are stored in my parents place becasue my place in Cali can't handle them all. All I see is a bunch of long boxes - the storage and portability issues are really brought home.

 

I'd just like to thank all the guys from Comic Art fan for stopping by and posting here and to Steve and the people at CGC for putting the forum up even though they dont encapsulate OA.

[delekkerste]

(since no one will ever convince you that you are ever wrong);

 

And that makes you different how?

 

 

He is wrong on both counts. First, as he is apparently in the financial services industry, he should know that my decision to pay CASH is independent of where I get the money. I am in the same boat as everyone else when it comes to shelling out $. I can take gains from my comic art collection and invest them in the stock market or real estate. Moreover, I can take funds from my portfolio of equities and put them in comic art. I put cash in because I believe in the hobby and am still having fun.

 

I don't particularly care what your particular financial situation is or motivations are, but I have read posts on ComicArt-L which have flat-out stated that only by the grace of having been able to acquire pieces years ago on the cheap that the poster could continue to participate in the hobby at today's prices. Do you deny that this rather unsurprising phenomenon exists? It's no secret at all that many deals get done only by the grace of inflated trade value or using sale proceeds from appreciated artwork. Do you really think that all these big-ticket deals would be getting done if there weren't a lot of people playing with found money? Sure, some of them would, but a lot of them wouldn't - everybody knows this.

 

 

He is very wrong when he says that only old timers are buying the big pieces. That is the opposite of the truth and has no basis in fact. It only shows perhaps that he is out of the loop as it were in the hobby. I have seen, my friends in the hobby have seen and any dealer you ask has seen tremendous growth in new collectors... and collectors who are buying the big pieces. This actually accounts for much of the price increases and scarcity for premium pieces over the past few years.

 

When did I say that only old timers are buying big pieces? I said there are two groups of people buying the big pieces - longtime collectors often playing with a good chunk of the house's money and new collectors coming in and paying cash (I would include someone like Hari in the latter category). At today's prices, I think there will be fewer of the latter category coming into the hobby than some might think. Would any of the very observable and logical stuff I'm saying be even remotely surprising to a neutral third-party?

 

 

 

Sorry to be harsh on Mr. Deli, but he just doesn't know what he's talking about in this respect and since he is consistently dogging on my hobby I feel the need to rebut.

 

Again, just how am I "consistently dogging on [the] hobby"? By saying what almost everyone who hasn't drunk the Kool-Aid knows to be true, that prices are no longer cheap after going up as much as 200-fold as in your very own examples? Because aside from that, I seem to be participating as enthusiastically as the next person in this hobby.

 

 

Buy what you can afford, buy the best that you can afford and you will not go wrong. I have never been disappointed... except when I pass on pieces that I should have bought. There are plenty of good deals and great pieces in all price ranges, and there is no reason why anyone who wants to jump in shouldn't. Dan F.

 

Hey, there's nothing like a little feel-good sensible advice at the end to cover up your usual assortment of misstatements, personal attacks, half-truths, hyperbole and general obnoxiousness.

[Kevin76]

The thing I see with baseball cards,toys,comics and yes I've collected all 3 compared to OA is that all those are manufactured collectibles,someone is always looking for the one that's in better condition than yours and will do without till it's found,When I was selling some of my comics,one collector asked for the serial numbers on them so he can check the grading notes,so if it's a 9.2 on the label and he saw that the grading was 9.2 9.2 9.0 with a slight non color breaking crease on the bottom left corner and a small spine crease. He didn't feel it was a 9.2 so he passed even though only 5 have been given a 9.2 and only 2 in 9.4 and nothing higher,with OA it's either you want it or not cause you will or may never have the chance to get it again,Who is going to pass up the cover to Hulk 340 because the inker used white out? I'm discovering alot more passion with collectors who collect OA than I did with collecting CGC Comics,Not saying people didn't love thier CGC books,But I see more people with much more forward excitment about thier hobby.

[jjeanius]

Yes, that's true...there's definitely a certain "excitement" and "electricity" to this hobby that is quite infectious. And while prices have escalated at a ridiculous pace, I think it's important to point out that this hobby is still, in many ways, in its infancy, and is finally getting more exposure through the internet and message boards, yahoo groups, CAF, etc. There is a greater influx of new collectors into the hobby than at any other time, and there's no end in sight right now...and demand continues to outweigh supply on choice material, hence the high prices. If anything, I expect prices to continue to escalate...at least on really choice material...until the influx of new collectors slows down. In the meantime, prices will continue to rise and even relatively new collectors will reap the benefits of "trading up".

[delekkerste]

wanted to point out that this is not some kind of dying hobby or one where the old guard are pushing their pieces on newbies by duping them into believeing this stuff has high value. A lot of us know what we are doing, enjoy it, and will continue to participate in the hobby.

 

I *never* intimated in any way, shape or form that the "old guard" was doing what you suggested above. At no point did I ever say that people are cashing out, and certainly not at the expense of newcomers to the hobby. I said that prices are high and that people are using these high values (whether through trade or through sales) to further their collections. Why are we even having this debate? This is obvious stuff we are talking about. We all know many collectors who make rather average incomes and yet are still able to acquire nice pieces through selling/trading appreciated artwork or art acquired from selling/trading appreciated artwork.

[FlComicFan]

To me more importantly than the rising cost he big deterrent keeping OA from really blowing up is the tight knit good old boy network. If you are a newbie collector be prepared to really pay your dues before you get to play in the same sandbox. The best stuff doesnt get traded openly. Another pet peeve is that the majority of better pieces dont get priced. Everything is trades only, make an offer.If you're scared about selling a piece and not getting the maximum then dont put it out there.

[Kevin76]

Yes, that's true...there's definitely a certain "excitement" and "electricity" to this hobby that is quite infectious. And while prices have escalated at a ridiculous pace, I think it's important to point out that this hobby is still, in many ways, in its infancy, and is finally getting more exposure through the internet and message boards, yahoo groups, CAF, etc. There is a greater influx of new collectors into the hobby than at any other time, and there's no end in sight right now...and demand continues to outweigh supply on choice material, hence the high prices. If anything, I expect prices to continue to escalate...at least on really choice material...until the influx of new collectors slows down. In the meantime, prices will continue to rise and even relatively new collectors will reap the benefits of "trading up".

 

I personaly feel that the OA hobby is while still very small,it's only scratching the surface,and is continuing to grow at a rapid pace and is only going to get more expensive,I think comics while won't ever go away but I see another long back issue drought coming.Artwork is artwork weather it's made from craved from a block of marble or drawn in pen & ink and as also the artist is the most important. While Jim Lee is an awesome artist he's still drawing and it plentyful,someone like todd mcfarlane who doesn't draw anymore are fighting over those money shots of spider-man,and he's keeping all his spawn stuff.

[tth2]

Who is going to pass up the cover to Hulk 340 because the inker used white out?

Actually, I see a lot of covers (including some keys) get dissed on these boards because of things like white out and other things that detract from the OA.

[Kevin76]

The OA wasn't really meant to be a collectible, it was all about getting it ready for the art to be "camera ready" If someone is going to pass up a chance to buy something great like the cover to JIM 83 beacuse it has white out on it,that person really needs to have his head examined.It's a very "take it or leave it" kinda hobby.Actually more like a "I can't afford that" kinda hobby

[comicartfan]

Another pet peeve is that the majority of better pieces dont get priced. Everything is trades only

 

that maybe true, to an extent....but as Spider9698 says " Cash is king".....

[tth2]

The OA wasn't really meant to be a collectible, it was all about getting it ready for the art to be "camera ready" If someone is going to pass up a chance to buy something great like the cover to JIM 83 beacuse it has white out on it,that person really needs to have his head examined.It's a very "take it or leave it" kinda hobby.Actually more like a "I can't afford that" kinda hobby

Well, I agree with you, but I've seen more than one big collector here say they passed on a particular cover, including some keys, because of white out or some part being pasted on. Remember when that GA Batman cover went up at Heritage, and all everyone could focus on was the browned glue, to the point they drove Lon Allen off these boards.

[Kevin76]

The OA wasn't really meant to be a collectible, it was all about getting it ready for the art to be "camera ready" If someone is going to pass up a chance to buy something great like the cover to JIM 83 beacuse it has white out on it,that person really needs to have his head examined.It's a very "take it or leave it" kinda hobby.Actually more like a "I can't afford that" kinda hobby

Well, I agree with you, but I've seen more than one big collector here say they passed on a particular cover, including some keys, because of white out or some part being pasted on. Remember when that GA Batman cover went up at Heritage, and all everyone could focus on was the browned glue, to the point they drove Lon Allen off these boards.

 

Yea I remember that fox and the grapes story.

[rob_react]

The OA wasn't really meant to be a collectible, it was all about getting it ready for the art to be "camera ready" If someone is going to pass up a chance to buy something great like the cover to JIM 83 beacuse it has white out on it,that person really needs to have his head examined.It's a very "take it or leave it" kinda hobby.Actually more like a "I can't afford that" kinda hobby

Well, I agree with you, but I've seen more than one big collector here say they passed on a particular cover, including some keys, because of white out or some part being pasted on. Remember when that GA Batman cover went up at Heritage, and all everyone could focus on was the browned glue, to the point they drove Lon Allen off these boards.

 

He overreacted. If I remember it correctly the page looked SUPER brown in the first image we all saw. Heritage then posted a scan (maybe a gray scale image?) that took a lot of the brown out. Zillatoy, me, and a few other people just assumed that the page had been cleaned up. Lon took that assumption to mean that we were saying that they were doing something underhanded (or something) flipped, took his ball and went home.

[tth2]

The OA wasn't really meant to be a collectible, it was all about getting it ready for the art to be "camera ready" If someone is going to pass up a chance to buy something great like the cover to JIM 83 beacuse it has white out on it,that person really needs to have his head examined.It's a very "take it or leave it" kinda hobby.Actually more like a "I can't afford that" kinda hobby

Well, I agree with you, but I've seen more than one big collector here say they passed on a particular cover, including some keys, because of white out or some part being pasted on. Remember when that GA Batman cover went up at Heritage, and all everyone could focus on was the browned glue, to the point they drove Lon Allen off these boards.

 

Yea I remember that fox and the grapes story.

Could very well be.

[spider9698]

With a tip of the hat to Rob Rogovin.....