Buying the label... OF COURSE!

[BestOf7-migration]

Food, clothes, cars, EVERYTHING under the sun...the label makes a difference.

 

If we are supposed to ignore labels in comics, then why do we care everywhere else?

 

I remember walking into a so-called "designer" shop in my mid 20's and getting pressured to purchase a t-shirt that was priced at $120! I laughed inside, and when the jerk deciced to humiliate me in front of his colleagues, that's when I looked him in the eye and explained to him that he mistook me for a person that didn't have anything better to do with their money. But even if I was, I would never spend more than $10 on a t-shirt. It is this same line of thinking that is used when I buy comics. It doesn't make me any less of a collector. All the power to the 9.8 collector, but I'm just as happy with a 9.0

[COI]

Ok, Murph already covered this, but if you know anything about cars, you'll know that a Toyota and Lexus are not comparable. And Cars are complex because of how they are built, where they are built, and what's been put in them. They are not comparable.

 

If you buy $20 Jeans, they will not last you long. There are EXTREME examples when certain designer labels are priced way too high, but for the most part you get the quality of what you pay for.

 

I agree with you about buying the label not the comic, I just don't agree with the examples you used. What buying the comic means is actually looking at the book itself. The reason this has to be done is because the guys at CGC are human, and as a result will be inconsistent at times. So if you're going to pay multiples of guide, you better damn well be getting what you paid for.

 

I also agree that people should just do whatever they want, and not be criticized. But there are extremes. I will continue to criticize a 9.8 ASM #301 selling for $800, because it's an extreme. And extremes are not good for the market. And what isn't good for the market, is not good for me. While I want people to be happy with their books, I also don't want to see people become disillusioned with their foolish purchases, even though it's inevitable. Because that will damage the hobby in the long run. That's my problem with it.

[BachelorOfComix]

But that's the nature of a paper collectible where grading is subjective. There's distinct lines between books like VF and NM. But when you get down to nit picking, it's really just an opinion. Opinions change. Noone can be 100 percent the same grade 10 out of 10 times.

Yes, and that is precisely why I will never pay a Bizarro World premium for any CGC 9.8+ book.

[sfilosa]

I have made comments (many times) about people "Buying the Label and not the Book").

 

When I say that, its because grading is "Subjective" (its an art not a science).

 

CGC grades slightly differently than I would grade and others would grade (i.e. manufacturing defects don't effect the grade as much).

 

The Toyata/Lexus and other comparisons don't work with comics:

 

Why?

 

Here's an example.

 

I take a nice Toyota and a Lexus and remove the "label". I now let someone put put the label on either car (but they don't know which one is which). While you would think that they know which car is the Lexus, maybe they like the look, feel, design, color, etc. of the Toyota and put the Lexus label on that car. Now, you have a better comparison to the difference in comic books.

 

And to make a better comparison, take two cars that are both high-end (i.e. Lexus and BMW). Now maybe the BMW is priced $10,000 less but they both have all the same options and quality. That's closer to a 9.6/9.8 comparison.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Smokinghawk]

NEVER buy the label...or so we are told.

CGC grades some book at 9.8...and all the sudden it sells for $100 EXTRA!

 

Shame, shame...someone must have bought the label.

 

One question... Why would CGC be any different than ANYTHING ELSE?

 

Blue jeans? $20. Tommy Hilfiger blue jeans? $70. (Must be the label.)

Aren't they both just blue jeans? Don't they have the same purpose?

 

Toyota? $20,000. Lexus? $70,000. (Maybe you didn't know Lexus IS Toyota.)

Does the Lexus get you to your destination any better? What's the advantage?

 

Food, clothes, cars, EVERYTHING under the sun...the label makes a difference.

 

If we are supposed to ignore labels in comics, then why do we care everywhere else?

 

Respect/admiration/envy for those who pay $50,000 too much for a Toyota...

but woe to the CGC buyer who pays a few bucks too much for a slab and a label.

 

 

 

Here's why, for me:

 

The CGC label is an indication of objective quality, not a name brand. I have no allegiance to CGC as a brand, and simply want the service they provide. There is no social status inherent in being a CGC customer (which makes me question, though, the hostility toward new competitors).

 

Also, I tend to actually SHUN such items as Tommy, Gap, and Nike because of the sweatshop issue. Until I learn that CGC operates a sweatshop, their label carries a respect that many corporate brands just don't for me.

 

Also, WHO CARES if sometimes the label indicates an arbitrary, invisible-to-the-eye distinguished quality of the book. The rating helps contribute to the collectibility of the item, and as long as CGC continues to maintain the logical "better is rarer" classification, we still have a "boost" to the collectibility of a book which we at least know is gonna be gorgeous.

[Crowzilla]

And of course no matter how many times you take your Toyota Camry back to the dealer and ask them to put lexus tags on it (so you can improve resale value?) they won't.

 

But, we already know that you can send some 9.6s back and get a 9.8

Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it?

 

[Smokinghawk]

...And here's another thought: for that matter, why do people even say "buy the BOOK" in the first place? Why rant that people "buy the label" but somehow respect the weird, absurd, meaningless INDUSTRY that has become "buy the book?"

 

Do we hear what we're really saying when we say that? We're actually ADVISING people that we approve and encourage the spending of HUGE sums of money on pulp paper, staples, and arranged inks. And weirdly, if the inks are arranged in certain patterns they can make one book VERY expensive, while arrangements on another book just make it a quarter-bin turd.

 

So why gripe that some people ascribe value to the arrangement of inks on a blue label to say "9.8," and then think it's perfectly reasonable to pay a million bucks for an Action #1?

 

We can't be hypocrites--we have to remember that our whole collecting thing depends on people being willing to ascribe value to arbitrary, value-less concepts, such as the first appearance of Wolverine being worth X dollars. If data printed on paper doesn't have inherent value, Hulk 181 is just a birdcage liner.

 

So "buying the label" doesn't make any LESS sense than "buying the book", and both concepts are inherently pointless unless we all agree to sponsor their having a point.

 

[dolphinsrwj]

why do so many people pay high dollar for white pages vs off white when they cant even see them?

[COI]

why do so many people pay high dollar for white pages vs off white when they cant even see them?

 

On older books with white covers, it can affect the appearance of the cover and make it look dingy. White paged books will have whiter looking covers.

 

Otherwise, it usually has to do with the state of preservation. White pages means better preservation over its lifetime, which may mean a longer life for the book(as long as it continues to be stored properly). It's also just another challenge.

[bubbles-migration]

On the other hand, I've owned Hilfiger, Guess, Armani Exchange, Levi's, which I've been completely satisfied with in terms of quality, look, fit, & feel.

 

Did all those jeans cost exactly the same amount?

Or were the Levi's cheaper than the Armani's?

 

If so...think of the Levi's as CGC 9.6...

Armani's are CGC 9.8.

 

If you can't see differences in 9.6 and 9.8, and the Levi's were good jeans...

then why did you pay more for the Armani's?

Actually they were about the same price.

 

this is where you may want to insert the dog with the quizzical look on its face again. and they call him....cerebro.

[Aman619]

you all seem to have gotten past the cars and jeans as bad analogies......but if it starts again, may I suggest you try "generic foods" at supermarkets. As you know, these are the exact same contents with plain generic labels, which, minus all advertising and marketing budgets, can sell for much less.

 

A 'perfect' example of a "buying the label' choice in the marketplace.

 

But I agree its all moot, since it was pointe dout thet even th eopposite "smart" choice of "buying the book" is subjective as well since its all just paper and ink that only a select few thousand fans give any weight to.

[BachelorOfComix]

On the other hand, I've owned Hilfiger, Guess, Armani Exchange, Levi's, which I've been completely satisfied with in terms of quality, look, fit, & feel.

 

Did all those jeans cost exactly the same amount?

Or were the Levi's cheaper than the Armani's?

 

If so...think of the Levi's as CGC 9.6...

Armani's are CGC 9.8.

 

If you can't see differences in 9.6 and 9.8, and the Levi's were good jeans...

then why did you pay more for the Armani's?

Actually they were about the same price.

 

this is where you may want to insert the dog with the quizzical look on its face again. and they call him....cerebro.

Please elaborate & make your point clear. I have a feeling you will make no sense...................again.

[awe4one]

Not to belabor the point....

 

Take two exact model cars. Same model, type and color that rolled off the production line together. Lets call them A & B. A guy, who knows cars, comes up and says Civic A looks better in his opinion. The person buys Civic A for a premium based on the recommendation. That's a more appropriate scenario for this thread.....

 

I bring this up because of another thread indicating the desire to buy Modern Spider-Man comics. The dealer has numerous copies in his boxes for sale but the buyers don't want any copies that won't grade 9.8. Why not ask the dealer to provide his best copies instead of the demand that the dealer pre-screen his copies and only those that would possibly grade 9.8 are acceptable? You either want a a nice copy of the title for your collection or you don't. It seems that the only reason these buyers want a copy is the caveat that they have a 9.8 stamped on the top. That's the madness and the irritating factor that CGC brought into this hobby.

 

This is not healthy for the future of this hobby in my opinion and illustrates more the mentality that was rampant during the speculator craze of the early 90s then a hobby that has learned from its mistakes.

 

 

Jim

[Shield]

I have a Lexus GS 300. Tell me again exactly what Toyota this is like? I drove the top of the line Camry before I bought the Lex, and it PALED in comparison for performance, comfort, and style. Not to mention looks. The biggest problem with the Toyota vs. Lexus analogy is the fact that there is no comparable Lexus models for any Toyota cars.

 

Do I think it's a "status symbol" or any big deal? Heck, no! I had a 1991 Celica that was 10 years old, so I figured out what I wanted to buy and have car payments around $450 a month. Instead of buying a new boring Pontiac Grand Prix, I wanted something different.

 

So, in terms of this discussion, I could've had a 9.8 (brand new) Toyota Avalon. I instead chose a 3 year old Lexus GS 300, in 9.6....

 

Of course, I collect golden age anyway; I couldn't find myself collecting books in which there were 50 or more in the census of, let alone thousands.

[Joanna]

you all seem to have gotten past the cars and jeans as bad analogies......but if it starts again, may I suggest you try "generic foods" at supermarkets. As you know, these are the exact same contents with plain generic labels, which, minus all advertising and marketing budgets, can sell for much less.

 

A 'perfect' example of a "buying the label' choice in the marketplace.

 

But I agree its all moot, since it was pointe dout thet even th eopposite "smart" choice of "buying the book" is subjective as well since its all just paper and ink that only a select few thousand fans give any weight to.

 

Okay, you'll hate me for this, but it depends.

 

Let's used canned vegetables as an example.

 

There are different canners that sell private label goods (that's what those supermarket things are called: private label). Just like comics, vegetables are graded. It depends on the crop, the time of year, the rain, and all sorts of things. The bottom line is that not every pea is the same grade/quality.

 

So the canner sells high grade peas to one private label (let's say it's S&W brand, which tends to always buy very high grade vegetables. They charge a bit more, too). And low grade peas to Great Big Cheap Market, which puts it's GBCM label on the peas and prices them lower than the other peas. You can buy GBCM peas and still get a fairly good can of peas if the canner was in the midwest, because they grow the best peas. But if it's from the Pacific NW, they might not be as good. Both would be low grade peas, so nowhere near the quality of S&W (who'll only buy high grade midwest peas), but even in low grade there are differences.

 

How do you tell who canned them? There's a metal stamp on the can with a code on it. You have to know the codes. Or you can try a can of GBCM peas and if you like'em fine, if you don't, then throw a little more money in the pot and buy some S&W.

 

Buy comics in G, or 9.8 or any grade you like. The point is buy what you like. Because a can of peas that cost 49c that you throw away will always cost you more than a can of peas that cost 89c that you eat. You have to buy what appeals to you, not what other people think you should buy.

 

Brought to you by the daughter of a man who used to be the president of a canning factory, and who spent years as a VP of sales for private label products.

 

-- Joanna

[sfilosa]

The simple example was one presented on a forum several weeks ago:

 

I high grade collector had a 9.2 book and wanted (and did) resubmit the book hoping to get a 9.4. From an investment point, this makes sense (assuming a 9.4 would sell for a higher amount than the cost to recertify).

 

But as I stated (over and over), IT WAS STILL THE EXACT SAME BOOK. This person clearly wanted the label to say NM, and in fact was not looking for a better copy or to sell the book.

 

It would be like having a pair of Tommy Hilfiger jeans. They feel and look great. But the label is gone. Someone says they will sell you a label for $50 to put on your $100 jeans. So you buy the label. The fact is, the jeans still feel and look the same (except it now has a different label).

 

 

If the person had a NM- book, and took it out of the slab and had it cleaned or pressed in a way that didn't get a purple label, and then the grade became NM, that would make sense. At least the look of the book was "improved".

 

But the person resubmitted only for the label, and in fact, took a chance that the book would end up getting the same or lower grade, let alone the book could also get damaged, in transit or while being graded. Just didn't make sense to me.

[dam60]

Quality, pure & simple. In the everyday examples you cite, there is a difference in quality. Is there a difference in quality between a 9.8 & a 9.6? I'm afraid not. Like I said in another thread, put a 9.6 & 9.8 of the same comic side-by-side, cover the labels, & tell me without hesitation which is which

 

Sorry to come late to the party, but that's exactly why I can get 9.6s for pennies on the dollar relative to 9.8s. I also can't see the difference most of the time.

 

DAM

[murph0]

Well if you resubmit there's a reason you're doing so. It could be the book was "mislabeled" in your opinion..and you're basically resubmitting a "NM book" in a "NM- holder". CGC isn't the end-all, just b/c it says NM- to some people doesn't make it ABOSLUTELY HAVE to be a NM-.

 

Brian

[Aman619]

Okay, you'll hate me for this, but it depends.

 

you're right, Joanna!! I hate you!

seriously that was a fascinating trip to the cannery. I never knew a hill of beans about any of the details about the levels of quality vegetables are available in. Makes a lot of sense.

[Joanna]

Okay, you'll hate me for this, but it depends.

 

you're right, Joanna!! I hate you!

seriously that was a fascinating trip to the cannery. I never knew a hill of beans about any of the details about the levels of quality vegetables are available in. Makes a lot of sense.

 

I know far too much about canned vegetables. In fact, I spent one summer working in one of the canning plants about an hour away from the HQ where Dad worked. I was a pea washer. I stood on a wildly vibrating metal parapet and stood watch over the peas coming in on a conveyer belt from the trucks (fresh from the farm). My job was to regulate the amount of oil and soap that was added so that the peas sunk and the husks (those outer layers on peas) floated off. And yes, I said soap. What else do you wash with?

 

I was also a corn cutter (when the early June peas stopped coming in, the corn started being harvested). I stood in front of a huge row of machines that cut the corn off the cob. I carried a wooden stick (like a dowel) and my job was to use this high-tech tool to clear any jams. They were always getting jammed.

 

At that time, my Dad was the VP of sales. We worker bees wore hard hats with red writing on them. Bigshots had blue writing. Whenever a blue hat came, all the workers snapped to attention, on their best behavior. I hadn't let anyone know who I was, because I didn't want anyone treating me differently. So no one knew my Dad was a blue hat.

 

One day soon after starting my new job, I'm washing my peas, and Dad drops in for a meeting with the plant manager. He stops by my station first. "I'll buy you a Coke, if it's your break time," he said. Sounded good to me, so I left my peas in charge of my buddy (we each had our own vats, but covered each other during breaks) and walked out behind Dad. We went to the break room, drank a couple of Cokes, and chatted. Then he went to his meeting, and I walked back to the factory.

 

As soon as I walked in, I was mobbed. "What did you do??? Are you getting fired? That was a major blue hat who walked you out -- WHAT DID YOU DO WRONG???"

 

At that point, I had to admit that I was (gasp) the daughter of a blue hat. It was quite the scandal, since everyone was positive I was going to get them fired. I finally convinced them that I wasn't a canning spy, just working a summer job.

 

Because I'd grown up with all the guys at the HQ, every blue hat who ever walked in knew me, so my fellow workers soon got used to the fact that, for that summer, the blue hats were always going to detour through the factory to give me a hello. I never lived it down.

 

-- Joanna