35 cent variants - feet on the ground

[buena_vista]

As far as the KC goes... I turned down an offer of $425 last week... so it appears I am not the only one who thinks it's worth more than the $200 that many suggested...

 

I really don't want to start stirring the pot but this KC deal is just annoying me. It comes on the tail on my trip to the Philly con. I also want to hear other opinions on the pricing of these variants.

 

At Philly, I had a chat with the dealer who probably has the largest known collection of 35 centers -- Motor City Comics. They say they have about 500 of them but have no intention of selling because "they don't guide for enough money" and are waiting for the real value of these books to be realized. Of course, it's his stock and he's free to do what he wants but --- let the speculators beware. And that goes for you as well 'house.

 

Let me start be saying that the Kid Colt, ISN'T worth $425, not even close. We'll get to that in a sec but what puzzles me is why you put it up altogether.

 

Do you have another copy? If so, the $425 should have been very tempting. If not then it's clear you had no intention of selling. I can just imagine what the reserve was on this book. And if some buyer really wanted to spend that kind of cash, why didn’t he just bid on it? If it met your reserve, it would have forced you to part with it

 

Now for the REAL value of these variants. All of us variant collectors hope that one day, the collecting community will realize the rarity of these books. That will make us all look very smart, but the payoff will not be what we think.

 

My working theory is the Cerebus #1 analogy. It’s just a matter of math, really. Overstreet based its price of Cerebus #1 on the fact that only 2000 copies were printed back in 1977 (same year as the 35 cent variants). Keep in mind that no one knew anything about Cerebus and that specific book IS a key (the first issue of the longest ongoing independent title in history).

 

It guides for $375 in 9.4, $292 in 9.0, $209 in VF, $87 in FN, $58 in VG & $29 in GD.

Now, I’m no expert in Cerebus so I wasn’t sure if this price was realistic. I asked around in Philly, dealers were charging about 10-15% over guide for 2 books I saw (one in FN, another a VG). Now let’s talk about the 35 centers.

 

There is a debate over how many 35 cent books were printed. Some say one percent of the print run. I’ve heard others say less. Let’s assume that it’s one half of one percent.

 

Now, back in 1977, Marvel’s print runs for popular books was about 500K and a mere 200K for less popular books (according to a few 1976/7 reports printed in the books). That means that, at the absolute minimum, 2K of that Kid Colt were printed. Does that number sound familiar?

 

Sure, many of them may have been destroyed after they didn’t sell but I’m sure the case is the same for Cerebus #1.

 

As for the “completist” argument, c’mon. How many people are out there that REALLY want the 35 cent editions of Kid Colt to complete their set AND are willing to part with that kind of money? I’m willing to put good money and say “not too many”.

 

What's more, the reason you can't find these books is simple. Most dealers don't care about them. They have them mixed up with their regular priced issues. If and when these books ever really get noticed for big cash, they'll be popping out of the woodwork --- not many but they are out there.

 

To sum it up, I honestly feel that the prices on Cerebus #1 are the absolute maximum the 35 centers will ever get to (with the exception of Iron Fist #14 & 15 & Star Wars 1).

 

I am also willing to put my money where my mouth is.’House, when I get toward the end of my 30 cent variant collection and I need to complete the set (which I hope will happen one day), I will offer to trade any 35 centers I have in my collection for what I need. In a flash.

 

Opinions?

 

 

 

 

[murph0]

Opinions?

 

You seem to have your mind set on what you want to think and don't want to think about variants. So I'm not sure what the whole point of this thread is, other than to continue your tirade of anti-price variant collectors complaints.

However, the fact remains that there's people out there actively looking for these and willing to pay pretty good $$$ if it's in top grade (NM?). The fact remains that most of these variants that are found, are in mid-grade. And the fact remains that Lighthouse's auction was bid up to a couple hundred dollars...and what was that auction for? An otherwise 50 cent bin book in mid-grade. There ARE completionists out there, and there ARE people out there looking for nice HTF books. And that is why his auction got bid up, not b/c he put a voodoo spell on the bidders making them continuously bid it up.

 

Brian

[buena_vista]

Opinions?

 

You seem to have your mind set on what you want to think and don't want to think about variants. So I'm not sure what the whole point of this thread is, other than to continue your tirade of anti-price variant collectors complaints.

 

 

Brian

 

My tirade? Did you read what I wrote? Obviously not. If you have nothing to contribue to the thread --- no one's putting a gun to your head.

 

 

[murph0]

I'd call something that goes so far as having 12+ paragraphs a pretty nice tirade. From your thread I got; price variants are over-valued with the exception of IF 14 and SW 1, LH's comic isn't worth what it was bid up to, LH was dumb to not sell his book, then I believe you called LH as well as Motor City both speculators, and then you compare them to some independantly published book based solely on the fact that it has a publishing in the range of 2k. All in all, this post could've easily stayed in the original thread concerning this book..

 

Brian

[FlyingDonut]

This is why there's a market for variants: Email trail from this morning

 

All of the recent Marvel books that have had weird prices (Daredevil 41, X-Men 423, Fantastic Four 60) that are sold on the newsstand have regular priced books. The Namor 1, for example, does NOT have a regular priced book. The upcoming Hulk 25 center will have one as well.

 

David xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Dan,

Thanks very much for the info. What do you know about more recent variants like the Daredevil #41 that I won in your ebay auction? Are there more recent variants like this?

Thanks, David

 

--- Dan Cusimano wrote:

There are 30 cent variants for Daredevil 132-136 and Amazing 155-159, 35 cent variants for Daredevil 146-148 and Amazing 169-173.

 

There are 95 cent "Canadian" price variants for both, I'm not sure as to all the numbers, I know there's an Amazing 279 that has a 95 cent cover price.

 

Marvel Team Up 30 cent variants are 44-48, 35 cent variants 59-62. Marvel Tales 30 cent variants 66-70, 35 cent variants 80-84

 

actually, go here:

35 cent variant list: http://users.erols.com/pmerolle/35variantlist

30 cent variant list: http://users.erols.com/pmerolle/variantlist.html

 

welcome to the nuthouse!

 

David xxxxxxxxxx wrote:

Dan,

I just won your ebay auction #2176398703 for the Daredevil #41 variant. I am an avid Daredevil and Spider-Man collector and am interested in almost any variant for either character's books. My problem is that I don't know what to look for because I don't know what variants are out there. Can you tell me if there exist similar variants for other Daredevil issues or any of the Spider-Man titles? I am also interested in variants for the older Daredevil and five older Spider-Man titles. I comb the price guides and try to make complete want lists but I keep finding new variants that I didn't know about before. Any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks, David

[buena_vista]

I'd call something that goes so far as having 12+ paragraphs a pretty nice tirade. From your thread I got; price variants are over-valued with the exception of IF 14 and SW 1, LH's comic isn't worth what it was bid up to, LH was dumb to not sell his book, then I believe you called LH as well as Motor City both speculators, and then you compare them to some independantly published book based solely on the fact that it has a publishing in the range of 2k. All in all, this post could've easily stayed in the original thread concerning this book..

 

Brian

 

Right... "My ongoing tirade" --- that's good. When was I spouting off on variants? I collect them, in case you haven't read.

 

Right.... -- "the original thread" -- where they have a contest about what's on 'house's store wall.

 

Right -- "some indy book -- like Cerebus 1 is "just another book".

 

Please don't turn this thread into a joke. I want to hear honest opinions from collectors what they think the prices on these books should really be. I'd love to hear yours....

[ImageMask]

New here and my intent is not to flame but gotta add my "35cents" . I live in San Antonio, a test market for these variants, and I must say your a little off here. Your comment that "Most dealers don't care about them. They have them mixed up with their regular priced issues" is soooooo off, at least in this city and on e-bay. Check the ca$h they bring . If u find any in a long box, you won't in S.A., BUY. Dealers here have these books but won't sell for the same reason as Motor City according to you "they don't guide for enough money". But who cares what the guide says people are paying the $$$$ for these books. Again, your comment "Let me start be saying that the Kid Colt, ISN'T worth $425, not even close." is also sooooo off. Like all collectables it's only worth what someone is willing to pay so it's worth $425 to someone. Maybe not u or me but too someone it is and that's what drives this hobby. End rant or in the words of the great Stan "the man" variant Lee .....'nuff said.

[Rip]

Yes I know Motor City has many 35 cent variants. Not sure about having 500 but when I saw them at the Wonder Con about two years ago I did see quite a few. At least over 30. (Can't remember exactly maybe 50) However from what I saw they were all the mainstream superhero books. They had many FF, Avengers, Spider-man, Cap, Invaders, Ironman, Marvel Team-ups some Star Wars. Anyway, I saw no western books. Did he say he had Westerns, or War books? Also I have had a hard time geting the later Star Wars variants do you have any. I'll make you an offer.

 

 

[Darthdiesel]

As far as the KC goes... I turned down an offer of $425 last week... so it appears I am not the only one who thinks it's worth more than the $200 that many suggested...

 

I really don't want to start stirring the pot but this KC deal is just annoying me. It comes on the tail on my trip to the Philly con. I also want to hear other opinions on the pricing of these variants.....

 

 

Buenavista....THOU ART A BLASPHEMER![/color]size>

 

 

BTW - buena is one of the many consistent 30 cent variant collectors out there and we've bumped heads as well as sealed deals over time. Obviously, his prescription is low and I've got to get him his meds toute de suite. We can't have one of our own ranting against the Variant HYPE Machine!

 

 

 

[lighthouse]

At Philly, I had a chat with the dealer who probably has the largest known collection of 35 centers -- Motor City Comics. They say they have about 500 of them but have no intention of selling because "they don't guide for enough money" and are waiting for the real value of these books to be realized. Of course, it's his stock and he's free to do what he wants but --- let the speculators beware. And that goes for you as well 'house.

 

500 variants isn't nearly enough to have a significant impact on the marketplace. If anything, the release of those books would likely increase prices because more collectors would see an opportunity to add some to their collection. I know a lot of guys who pay $40-80 for the 30c variants of the favorite titles, but haven't touched the 35c books yet because there's no guarantee they'd be able to get the books they need. As soon as that goal becomes realistic there are several collectors who would happily pick up these books.

 

If you were talking 5,000 35c variants (roughly 30 per issue) then the values would be affected. But it's safe to say that more than 5,000 of the 30c variants have been found, and they still command a nice multiple...

 

Let me start be saying that the Kid Colt, ISN'T worth $425, not even close.

 

And a 9.8 copy of Hulk 181 isn't worth $18K... And the Pay Copy of Marvel Comics 1 isn't worth seven figures... and so on... and so on... and so on... The value of limited supply collectibles offered in an auction environment is detemined by the (n+1)th most interested collector, where n is the number of copies available. If there's only two in the world then the guy who wants it third-most is the one who determines the price. And everybody else on the entire planet has a meaningless opinion...

 

It doesn't matter that EVERY SINGLE person on this board thinks that $18K is too much to pay for a 9.8 Hulk 181... None of us determined the price... We can shake our heads all we want, but someone else wanted it more than we did...

 

Do you have another copy? If so, the $425 should have been very tempting. If not then it's clear you had no intention of selling. I can just imagine what the reserve was on this book. And if some buyer really wanted to spend that kind of cash, why didn’t he just bid on it? If it met your reserve, it would have forced you to part with it.

 

I've already posted the reserve... it was $586.21. And had the bids met that reserve I would have sold it to the highest bidder. I then would have offered them $50 more than they paid (since I had a bit of seller's remorse and I don't believe in ending an auction to save my own skin). Had that offer been rejected, I would have gone about trying to find another one...

 

I made the book available for sale... That's no different than a thousand other reserve auctions that close without a buyer. So your 'no intention of selling' remark is unfounded.

 

I won't debate the Cerebus - Variant analogy with you... except to say that the back issue markets for small press titles and mainstream titles are completely different...

 

What's more, the reason you can't find these books is simple. Most dealers don't care about them. They have them mixed up with their regular priced issues. If and when these books ever really get noticed for big cash, they'll be popping out of the woodwork --- not many but they are out there.

 

I am one of roughly four dozen collectors I know personally that checks EVERY store in EVERY town I visit for price variants. All of them. All the time. There isn't a shop in this country that has been there more than five years that hasn't already been hit by at least one price variant collector. And most of them have been searched a dozen times over. The only way new price variants hit the market now is when they return to the marketplace from long-held private collections, or from back stock that hasn't been searched in several years. You can find variants in any part of the country, but the ones you will find in shops are ones they recently bought in collections.

 

The idea that there are hundreds of boxes of Bronze Age sitting around in back rooms of shops is a myth... Over half the shops in the country do not deal in back issues. Most of the ones that do have opened in the last ten years. The stores that date back further than that are stores that lived through the collapse of 1993, and shop owners who were bright enough to survive that period don't leave boxes of Bronze Age lying around for years...

 

I am also willing to put my money where my mouth is.’House, when I get toward the end of my 30 cent variant collection and I need to complete the set (which I hope will happen one day), I will offer to trade any 35 centers I have in my collection for what I need. In a flash.

 

And I will be happy to take you up on that offer... I traded FlyingDonut the last book he needed for his set. I am currently trading SilverandBronze 3 of the last 5 books he needs for his. And Darthdiesel and I are working a deal on some of the books he needs...

 

But if you really think I am nuts to value the KC220 so highly, then take me up on this offer. Sell me ANY other 35c Western variant in similar condition for $300. You'd make me a happy man.

[Darthdiesel]

Also I have had a hard time geting the later Star Wars variants do you have any

 

Didn't you just get the 2 and 4 recently. BTW don't fall for that chump lisiting SW variants without pictures on ebay - they are reprints.

[Darthdiesel]

I know a lot of guys who pay $40-80 for the 30c variants of the favorite titles, but haven't touched the 35c books yet because there's no guarantee they'd be able to get the books they need. As soon as that goal becomes realistic there are several collectors who would happily pick up these books.

 

I fall into this category, but $40-$80 bucks? Cheapskate! Unless you're shelling out $125 per, it's not a real 30cent variant collection worth having

I have 35 centers too but I will not step into that arena quite yet because Of what lighthouse says. It is because I went over to Donut Dan's place one day and saw his collection of 30 centers that said: Hey I can do this too! And made me go for it. I haven't hunted to the extent that the "old school" price variant collectors like Donut, House, Silverandbronze, and comiconxion have but I feel that I will have to once I'm down to my last 15 variants to complete the set. Of certain 30 centers there are only 5 known (openly disclosed among the 'variantscenti') copies or less...

 

 

I thought 'house was just testing the market but since he revealed the reserve I know he would have sold. By the way, if it was slabbed by CGC, I would have dropped the hammer on it! (Hint Hint)

 

I won't debate the Cerebus - Variant analogy with you... except to say that the back issue markets for small press titles and mainstream titles are completely different...

 

Let's spread the word that there is a 35 cent variant of Cerebus and get Bronty's panties all twisted in a bunch!

 

 

I am one of roughly four dozen collectors I know personally that checks EVERY store in EVERY town I visit for price variants.

 

Just stores? Don't stop there. Search every house that you enter for Marvel Price variants. Why, Donut has had to chase me out of his garage a few times...

 

All of them. All the time. There isn't a shop in this country that has been there more than five years that hasn't already been hit by at least one price variant collector. And most of them have been searched a dozen times over. The only way new price variants hit the market now is when they return to the marketplace from long-held private collections, or from back stock that hasn't been searched in several years. You can find variants in any part of the country, but the ones you will find in shops are ones they recently bought in collections.

 

This is absolutely true - the stores and shows in this area (Northern VA, Baltimore) have been combed through by silverandbronze (Paul), donut and comiconxion in their 30 cent hunting days. I'm glad to report though that a few have been shaken from collections since then. I emailed all the comic books stores in the test cities from an internet directory and some asked if I was Donut or Paul. I've had great luck with Baltimore stores - helping me fill some of the more common superheroes variant needs for between $5- $10 and in FN- VF grade.

 

The idea that there are hundreds of boxes of Bronze Age sitting around in back rooms of shops is a myth

 

True. My local comic shop has hundreds of boxes of Silver age MArvels - just kidding - had you going for a bit. They do have hundreds of boxes...of Valiant, new universe, 90's Marvel - makes me cry at times.

 

The only places I can think of with 100s of boxes of bronze age can be found are in Greggy's basement or at Joecollector's family reunion

 

And Darthdiesel and I are working a deal on some of the books he needs...

 

Oh yes...time to break out the KY...

 

Sell me ANY other 35c Western variant in similar condition for $300. You'd make me a happy man.

 

Umm, sell it to me instead for $301...

[joe_collector]

The only places I can think of with 100s of boxes of bronze age can be found are in Greggy's basement or at Joecollector's family reunion

 

Sigh, and just when I was thinking about helping you out on a few 30-cent variants...

[greggy]

The only places I can think of with 100s of boxes of bronze age can be found are in Greggy's basement or at Joecollector's family reunion

 

Sigh, and just when I was thinking about helping you out on a few 30-cent variants...

 

Are we talking about long or short boxes? Wait...I don't have a friggin' basement or 100 boxes!

[Lofwyr]

Can one of you variant collectors explain the appeal of collecting these books? To me it seems like it's collecting something for rarity's sake only. None of the variant books which i've seen (especially the homoerotic kid colt) is worth buying except to flip for obscene money to a diehard variant collector. I know comic collectors can be a neurotic obsessive bunch but what's the point of hoarding every price glitch and print error? Some of those "uber-rare" premium limited edition 90's valiant titles were also produced in <5000 quantities but they sure did crash hard or remain stagnant after hitting a price plateau. I also see a limited future when it comes to these price variant books, perhaps the price will go up but I see a solid ceiling. It's just not significant enough to catch on with mainstream collectors who go after real key books.

 

Although, if I were to stumble upon one by chance i'd sure as hell CGC asap and sell it on here for some obscene amount ;p.

 

 

 

[buena_vista]

Thanks for the great response, 'House. Just the kind of debate worthy of this forum.

 

Let's start from the end.

 

But if you really think I am nuts to value the KC220 so highly, then take me up on this offer. Sell me ANY other 35c Western variant in similar condition for $300. "

 

I wouldn't sell any book I don't have doubles of. Never have, never will. Not that I have any Westerns anyway... but I will trade my 35 centers for 30 centers when I'm down to the end -- and yes, I know you're they guy to go to. (By the way, I think the Kid Colts were the ONLY Western 35 centers)

 

500 variants isn't nearly enough to have a significant impact on the marketplace. If anything,

 

Really? Some guy comes out with a MTIO in G and everyone's pouncing over it like flies on s***. If it's the largest dealer collection, you can bet it has meaning.

 

The idea that there are hundreds of boxes of Bronze Age sitting around in back rooms of shops is a myth...,

 

Hmmm...I've had the disgusting opportunity to see some of those boxes --post 1993. Yes, there are folks out there with many many copies of Conan 1, Howard the Duck 1, Avengers 150. I even met a guy who claimed to have 1 copy of every single Marvel book from 1975-1980. Who knows? My point is -- the books are out there.

 

And a 9.8 copy of Hulk 181 isn't worth $18K... And the Pay Copy of Marvel Comics 1 isn't worth seven figures... and so on... and so on... and so on... ...,

 

You're comparing the price of key CGC books to variants?? C'mon. The most of the variants are NOT key books in any which way shape or form. Not even that --- your KC is a reprint!!! The back market for War & Western books are deader than a doornail -- you know that. Honestly, if you want to use the (n+1) idea ... fine.

So once there are 5 copies found to satisfy the few people out there that collect the 35 centers --- your KC is now worth how much??

 

Four dozen variant collectors out looking thru every shop? You may be right.I won't dispute that. From my limited experience I have found that most comic dealers don't even know what the hell I'm talking about when I mention 30 or 35 cent variants. Many dealers keep a good chunk of their stock off the floor so I can only assume that your guys never got to the people in the Tri-State area or never asked the dealers I've been to.

 

What I do know is that the three 35 centers I have, I found in regular boxes priced like regular books. I only started looking for them in November.

 

I gave a educated guess at what these things are really worth -- the max they could be worth using one of the few books out there that I can draw a comparison to. I would like to hear how you reach a value on these books.

 

[joe_collector]

Can one of you variant collectors explain the appeal of collecting these books? To me it seems like it's collecting something for rarity's sake only. Some of those "uber-rare" premium limited edition 90's valiant titles were also produced in <5000 quantities but they sure did crash hard...

 

Right there you're mixing up two totally different types.

 

Price variants were never marketed as "collectibles" and were instead actually used in market research, and sat on the same shelf with the regular issue. To buy one of the 30 or 35-cent variants, it cost you only a nickel premium. These also benefit from their era of "when comics were comics".

 

Now these crappy "manufacturered collectibles" are not variants, but products that have been produced to reward dealers, or to sell at premium prices via a spec-shop like DF or similar operations. These 1980's, 90's and 2000's manufactured collectibles also suffer from being produced during speculator and "grey beard" collecting days, and will never benefit from nostalgia.

[Rip]

to Darth:, yes I just got the 2 and 4. Now I really really want a 3. But I would be more than happy to upgrade as well. Doubles could also be nice for trade depending on condition. Also looking for a SW 1 VG+ or better.

 

 

 

 

[Crowzilla]

It guides for $375 in 9.4, $292 in 9.0, $209 in VF, $87 in FN, $58 in VG & $29 in GD.

Now, I’m no expert in Cerebus so I wasn’t sure if this price was realistic. I asked around in Philly, dealers were charging about 10-15% over guide for 2 books I saw (one in FN, another a VG).

 

I'm really surprised that no one has taken this guy to task for this claim.

He's saying he saw a FN copy of Cerebus #1 for 10% over guide? $95!!!

 

Send them all to me immediately please and I will give you a nice finders fee.

Cerebus #1 sells for over guide just like the 35¢ variations do.

 

There don't have to be tons of people collecting the variations because there aren't tons of them to go around (just like there aren't 2000 copies of Cerebus #1 anymore).

 

And while I'm not willing to pay $300 for a KC variation, I am willing to pay a good price for a 35¢ variation of Godzilla #3 so I can have the one three that I care about.

 

 

 

[shadroch]

I don't have much to add to this thread, but am following it with interst and want to make sure it stays on first page,so it doesn't die.