Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[ShoNuff-migration]

Tired of pressed books? Then get those pressing suckers to the designated place at the designated time, and I will gladly designate their azz...for dismemberment!

[Red Hook]

First of all, I think you are suffering from some serious reading comprehension problems.

 

Second of all, Nostradamus you ain't.

 

That wasn't very civil of you.

[tth2]

Yo me thats equal to the Church stacking argument.

What the hell does this mean?

[codfish]

The voice of the average collector is being lost and most of them are not even aware of it and that it could affect their bottom line (bottomline being grading perspectives and financial). at one time manipulating books for bigger gains was rampant and people got pissed off about it now it seems that alot of effort is going into removing things that many people would call restoration into a non-restoration catagory.

 

This is a good post, and one that is articulate and well thought out in your positions and statements...

 

I agree with your basic position. But where I disagree is that all of the positions being driven by the "disclosure" crowd are so pure and benevolent. I'm tired of those who are against disclosure being painted as the ones who are defending something inherently in the wrong and being motivated by greed. I think this great "cause" that is being championed smacks of other motives as well, and why its dogged pursuit by some is a mask, while for others, a true passion.

 

Frankly, I think both sides have learned to talk out of the side of their mouths.

 

Sorry I have been away for a few days. I would have to agree with your point of not all non-disclosure supporters not being driven by greed. I apologize for painting a wide swath. But, I do not think non-disclosure is not fair to those collectors that may wish to have a book that has never had intentional work done to it.

 

Like I believe I mentioned you would not be pleased if you purchased something and did not get what you described.

 

Most of all I feel that what is being lost in this fighting is just how many books are getting really needless work be it for profit or to satisfy a collector's lust for that impossible perfect book. I don't understand why say a 8.0 or a 9.0 from the mid 60's and down is not something so desireable any more. I have looked long and hard for some book from the late 60's in 9.0 or better and it is very hard. I would be honored to own even a 8.5 of the few issues I am looking for.

 

My SA and GA want lists are very small and for most of what I am looking for I am greatful if I can find a solid VG because most of it is impossible to find at all. For those issues that are a little more common I may be more picky.

 

I really don't mean to sound like a soapbox preacher on this but the definitional change in pressing concerned me because it just showed me, again, that some of the things I used to worry about and hate in collecting may be coming back into vogue and this time sanctioned by the powers that be. I really feel that this would do more disservice to the image of comic collecting.

 

Hell all this infighting and bickering about the finer points of collecting is causing more dissention when, with a little work, it could help bring all sides to work together for the of the whole industry.

 

The one thing I know for sure is that if someone does not keep bringing these points of contention up then all they will do is keep simmering under the surface which is unhealthy.

 

Anyway, I am sorry for the generality of my statement. You are certainly correct that it was unfair.

[Aman619]

Yo me thats equal to the Church stacking argument.

What the hell does this mean?

To me....

[tth2]

Yo me thats equal to the Church stacking argument.

What the hell does this mean?

To me....

[FFB]

honestly, I haven't read this whole thread, but I'd like and answer to this question. I was just looking at your showcase number 4 9.2 online. It's a beautiful book.

1. did you resub to get that grade?

2. Would pressing improve the grade?

If I pay for the pressing and resub, can I have half of the difference between the 9.2 value and the 9.4-9.6?

Seriously, that's a lot of money, tell me your thoughts on that book......also any background on that comic would be interesting....

 

I've seen Mark's Showcase #4 in person. I do not think it would be improved significantly by pressing. It's a gorgeous book, and one of the best books in the hobby, but the peripheral wear it exhibits would not be mitigated by a pressing job in my opinion. I also do not believe Mark resubbed it, but rather, bought it from Mark Wilson in its current holder.

[FFB]

I'm going to reiterate this:

 

I don't think Mark, Scott and myself are not on the same page per se. We certainly are with Ewert.

 

But as you might expect, we also have our own lives and our own personalities with different abilities and time constraints to devote to comic book issues.

 

I'm no longer on the same page with Mark on the pressing issue and he and I don't agree on the finer of point of mandating disclosure. I won't speak for how Scott feels on the issue.

 

I feel badly that I have not, since February, been able to devote the time I promised to the new Comic Book Association -- with the work at my old firm bringing a tremendous amount of time consuming and travel -- and now managing an office for a new firm, my focus hasn't been on comics. But with the time I do have, I would prefer to spend time focussed on the larger and broader issues facing collectors -- and that is where I see the efforts most being needed.

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront. This isn't the kind of important issue that requires a crusade because to me, under the rules of this particular system, it's not illegal. People want disclosure to make informed choices, and I believe that if the dealers respect you, and you listen to their concerns and interests as well, and not to try paint them all as greedy b**tards -- you will do more to engender the discussion that will eventually get you to the end point you wish to achieve.

 

You can go ahead and speak for me all you want, Brian. We are on the same page.

[Scheradon]

Youre a smart, tough lawyer. Wish you were on our side. The battle would be over by now. Think about it instead of picking on Mark on style points. It sounds petty.

 

What sounds petty is this kind of line drawing in the sand. There is no "battle" and this isn't a "war". This is an internal debate in the comic book hobby and it's a struggle for ideas discussed on an internet message board.

 

Maybe there's more people than just a handful who are tired with the heavy handed language and verbiage spouted out.

 

Aman, I respect your passion on this issue, but I do think that this type of language makes it extremely unsympathetic and unpersuasive to your cause.

 

I think this is divisive, rather than productive.

 

Ok Brian, you say this comment above, then say:

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront. This isn't the kind of important issue that requires a crusade because to me, under the rules of this particular system, it's not illegal. People want disclosure to make informed choices, and I believe that if the dealers respect you, and you listen to their concerns and interests as well, and not to try paint them all as greedy b**tards -- you will do more to engender the discussion that will eventually get you to the end point you wish to achieve.

 

, "battlefront", "crusade".

 

Frankly, I think both sides have learned to talk out of the side of their mouths.

 

I see one side definately talking out the side of their mouth. Especially when you see FFB's comments that are inline with your own by using the terms, "crusade", "getting in people's faces" and "launching an offensive". With all of this rhetoric the two of you are throwing our way, I'd almost forget it wasn't a war.

[Scheradon]

I'm going to reiterate this:

 

I don't think Mark, Scott and myself are not on the same page per se. We certainly are with Ewert.

 

But as you might expect, we also have our own lives and our own personalities with different abilities and time constraints to devote to comic book issues.

 

I'm no longer on the same page with Mark on the pressing issue and he and I don't agree on the finer of point of mandating disclosure. I won't speak for how Scott feels on the issue.

 

I feel badly that I have not, since February, been able to devote the time I promised to the new Comic Book Association -- with the work at my old firm bringing a tremendous amount of time consuming and travel -- and now managing an office for a new firm, my focus hasn't been on comics. But with the time I do have, I would prefer to spend time focussed on the larger and broader issues facing collectors -- and that is where I see the efforts most being needed.

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront. This isn't the kind of important issue that requires a crusade because to me, under the rules of this particular system, it's not illegal. People want disclosure to make informed choices, and I believe that if the dealers respect you, and you listen to their concerns and interests as well, and not to try paint them all as greedy b**tards -- you will do more to engender the discussion that will eventually get you to the end point you wish to achieve.

 

You can go ahead and speak for me all you want, Brian. We are on the same page.

 

Since you and Brian are in full agreement here, please feel free to enlighten me further and explain how your endless defense of any seller's obligation to openly and upfrontingly disclose pressing is actually the beneficial way to go in encouraging them to do so.

 

I don't see your guy's solutions of, "the buyer should ask" being the way to achieve this goal.

[Red Hook]

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront.

 

 

[Scheradon]

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront.

 

 

 

Let the "crusades" begin....charge!

 

[Red Hook]

Seriously, I'd love to see a list of Brian's ideas on this. They'd be very useful.

[LearnedHand]

What has irritated me recently about the way Zaid has chosen to go about things is the repeated efforts to consistently start things that are clearly (and not thinly veiled) targetted at raising questions and points made to further the same exact discussion. The "new" questions raised in this thread are basically being discussed in the pressing experiment thread and have been discussed multiple times over in multiple threads. The problem is, let's say even if I agreed with everything that Mark was saying, is that you are wearing people out on a controversial topic that a lot of people don't care about. I'm not suggesting that nobody ever talk about it, and of course those people could not read the threads -- but pressing is not as clearly a defined a problem as the Ewert trimming scandal. And my problem with Jason on pressing was the fact that he lied about doing it showing a pattern of behavior. And even on Ewert and other discussions, there is a limit to how much people want to hear about any one subject without real progress.

 

Whether Zaid wants it or doesn't, whether you want it or not, Mark has become the symbol of the disclosure movement on these boards, and clearly the most vocal proponent. From a personal standpoint, I have no problem with Mark -- I suspect we will see each other in San Diego again. But -- where I have a direct isse is with the pressing discussion becoming more akin to a campaign rather than a discussion -- it is not the biggest issue in the comic book hobby and while the dealer greed is a motivating factor for them doing it, I still don't view it as harmful.

 

And that’s the reason I started posting on this subject – it’s obviously a campaign, not an open discussion. Aside from the fact that there are much bigger issues in the hobby, it’s quite clear that the arguments made by Zaid and company about NDP are indefensible from any practical standpoint. But this doesn’t stop the constant threads with the same defective arguments. Isn’t that why Zaid eventually capitulated by offering the “call me too principled” responses versus any retorts based on fact or merit? Make no mistake, I have no personal problem with Zaid. I just wish we could constructively evolve these discussions, as we continue to focus on everything but the crux of the issue – properly performed pressing cannot be detected; and no one can force mandatory disclosure.

 

Scheradon – You and a few others seem to believe that banging the “I want disclosure; you’re operating unethically if you don’t affirmatively disclose” drum will yield results and somehow foster your perception of ethics on the hobby. Remember the phrase caveat emptor (buyer beware)? It’s been around for many centuries, and for good reason. That aside, from the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly. In my mind, your ideal is commendable (we’d all like to make informed decisions). But practical realties create limitations. And these non-stop threads that continue to polarize people on this issue will offer no benefit. Instead they will continue to grow the chasm between current reality and that which you desire.

[Scheradon]

What has irritated me recently about the way Zaid has chosen to go about things is the repeated efforts to consistently start things that are clearly (and not thinly veiled) targetted at raising questions and points made to further the same exact discussion. The "new" questions raised in this thread are basically being discussed in the pressing experiment thread and have been discussed multiple times over in multiple threads. The problem is, let's say even if I agreed with everything that Mark was saying, is that you are wearing people out on a controversial topic that a lot of people don't care about. I'm not suggesting that nobody ever talk about it, and of course those people could not read the threads -- but pressing is not as clearly a defined a problem as the Ewert trimming scandal. And my problem with Jason on pressing was the fact that he lied about doing it showing a pattern of behavior. And even on Ewert and other discussions, there is a limit to how much people want to hear about any one subject without real progress.

 

Whether Zaid wants it or doesn't, whether you want it or not, Mark has become the symbol of the disclosure movement on these boards, and clearly the most vocal proponent. From a personal standpoint, I have no problem with Mark -- I suspect we will see each other in San Diego again. But -- where I have a direct isse is with the pressing discussion becoming more akin to a campaign rather than a discussion -- it is not the biggest issue in the comic book hobby and while the dealer greed is a motivating factor for them doing it, I still don't view it as harmful.

 

And that’s the reason I started posting on this subject – it’s obviously a campaign, not an open discussion. Aside from the fact that there are much bigger issues in the hobby, it’s quite clear that the arguments made by Zaid and company about NDP are indefensible from any practical standpoint. But this doesn’t stop the constant threads with the same defective arguments. Isn’t that why Zaid eventually capitulated by offering the “call me too principled” responses versus any retorts based on fact or merit? Make no mistake, I have no personal problem with Zaid. I just wish we could constructively evolve these discussions, as we continue to focus on everything but the crux of the issue – properly performed pressing cannot be detected; and no one can force mandatory disclosure.

 

Scheradon – You and a few others seem to believe that banging the “I want disclosure; you’re operating unethically if you don’t affirmatively disclose” drum will yield results and somehow foster your perception of ethics on the hobby. Remember the phrase caveat emptor (buyer beware)? It’s been around for many centuries, and for good reason. From the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly. In my mind, your ideal is commendable (we’d all like to make informed decisions). But practical realties create limitations. And these non-stop threads that continue to polarize people on this issue will offer no benefit. Instead they will continue to grow the chasm between current reality and that which you desire.

 

So be it then as far as I'm concerned. I know that doing nothing and saying nothing will accomplish nothing.

 

The problem with Foolkiller, FFB and your solutions is that they are not solutions...atleast to anyone who wants upfront disclosure. If pressing didn't matter to me, I'd want all these threads to stop too I guess, but it does matter to me and others, and I think that's what you guys who don't really care need to understand.

 

I guess I would pose this question to any of the three of you since you are the most vocal critics of anyone who is pushing for open and upfront disclosure:

 

What are your solutions to further this ideal of persuading dealers and sellers to disclose pressing? If your solutions are only to hope the issue goes away by those who want disclosure being silent and reverting to the "buyer beware" or "buyer's responsibilty to ask" scenarios, then I don't see that as any great solution.

 

I'd just as soon continue to beat the drums in these threads and get the message to as many collectors as possible about undisclosed pressing. These dealers you've talked to should worry more about the chism being created by them rather then people like me. Not disclosing work they've had done on a book doesn't breed trust and confidence to any customer that may find this information out at a later date. If they want to keep taking that risk, I guess it's up to them.

 

There will always be those who will not disclose work done on a book. You see them on eBay right now selling trimmed, color touched, and surely pressed books without disclosing a thing. Heck, they'll even knowingly tout them as unrestored. So, to think we are going to be able to "force" anyone to comply with full disclosure of any restoration work is unrealistic, but we can make it the ethical choice for dealers and sellers in the hobby. It can become the up and up accepted practice of highly respected dealers and sellers in our hobby. I believe that and I believe others do too.

[THE_BEYONDER]

[FFB]

I'm going to reiterate this:

 

I don't think Mark, Scott and myself are not on the same page per se. We certainly are with Ewert.

 

But as you might expect, we also have our own lives and our own personalities with different abilities and time constraints to devote to comic book issues.

 

I'm no longer on the same page with Mark on the pressing issue and he and I don't agree on the finer of point of mandating disclosure. I won't speak for how Scott feels on the issue.

 

I feel badly that I have not, since February, been able to devote the time I promised to the new Comic Book Association -- with the work at my old firm bringing a tremendous amount of time consuming and travel -- and now managing an office for a new firm, my focus hasn't been on comics. But with the time I do have, I would prefer to spend time focussed on the larger and broader issues facing collectors -- and that is where I see the efforts most being needed.

 

There are other ways to achieve the goal of encouraging dealers to disclose pressing voluntarily -- and not turning it into an adversarial battlefront. This isn't the kind of important issue that requires a crusade because to me, under the rules of this particular system, it's not illegal. People want disclosure to make informed choices, and I believe that if the dealers respect you, and you listen to their concerns and interests as well, and not to try paint them all as greedy b**tards -- you will do more to engender the discussion that will eventually get you to the end point you wish to achieve.

 

You can go ahead and speak for me all you want, Brian. We are on the same page.

 

Since you and Brian are in full agreement here, please feel free to enlighten me further and explain how your endless defense of any seller's obligation to openly and upfrontingly disclose pressing is actually the beneficial way to go in encouraging them to do so.

 

I don't see your guy's solutions of, "the buyer should ask" being the way to achieve this goal.

 

I've spoken to that issue dozens of times over the last several weeks. If I thought that there was the slightest chance that you'd actually read what I wrote with an open mind, I might even post it again. But since you've already decided how you feel about the topic and you only want me to post something here so that you can try to pick it apart, why don't you just spare me that effort and use the Search function to find my posts in the recent threads on the issue.

[codfish]

I think this great "cause" that is being championed smacks of other motives as well, and why its dogged pursuit by some is a mask, while for others, a true passion.

 

Actually I want to address this comment. I have no agenda. I see disclosure as a positive and something that ultimately harms no one. On the other hand not practising disclosure would appear to be a bone of contention for many.

 

With or without disclosure prices for older books will go up. For those pressed books possibly not as fast but maybe when people see that no harm is done to the books maybe other's opinions will change. I know that without people like FFB clarifying his postion in past disputes with me elsewhere I would not have softened my postion on the ten point, CGC influenced scale. The more we know about a position the better the chance we will not be scared by it.

 

We have all heard Hammer's, and other's, talk about how books look after pressing to the point now where most people seem to believe a book can get pancaked. This is not fact though. Similarily I don't really believe that pressure applied to an object would leave no traces which is the mantra of certification professionals. Is pressing truly not detectable or is really that develping detection methods would hurt the business in some way (ie slow inspections or cut submissions)?

 

Anyway i guess my agenda is more openness and education for both sides. Certainly a position I can live with and one that I do not think disrespects "the other side" since including them is key to resolution of this dispute.

[Davenport]

While I try to understand the position that "disclose only if asked" is less confrontational and a more likely "solution", there are things that seem way out of balance about it.

 

First, why are economic considerations placed on the dealer side by default? It's their livelihood, sure, but the buyer is the one exchanging cash for a comic book. Isn't the economic stake at least 50/50?

 

Also, how many collectors do you think are aware enough to ask? When we volunteered after the Ewert fiasco to contact folks directly, many of them were clueless and very appreciative (and remember messageboards were on fire about it). So, I could be wrong, but I'm guessing even fewer folks are aware of CGC grade/value bumps from NDP.

 

For "buyer beware" to be a fair solution wouldn't the NDP tactic have to be common knowledge in the broader collecting world? Considering CGC'd books with NDP are indistinguishable out in the market, why would one even think to ask about nondisclosed alterations??

[Scheradon]

While I try to understand the position that "disclose only if asked" is less confrontational and a more likely "solution", there are things that seem way out of balance about it.

 

First, why are economic considerations placed on the dealer side by default? It's their livelihood, sure, but the buyer is the one exchanging cash for a comic book. Isn't the economic stake at least 50/50?

 

Also, how many collectors do you think are aware enough to ask? When we volunteered after the Ewert fiasco to contact folks directly, many of them were clueless and very appreciative (and remember messageboards were on fire about it). So, I could be wrong, but I'm guessing even fewer folks are aware of CGC grade/value bumps from NDP.

 

For "buyer beware" to be a fair solution wouldn't the NDP tactic have to be common knowledge in the broader collecting world? Considering CGC'd books with NDP are indistinguishable out in the market, why would one even think to ask about nondisclosed alterations??

 

Exactly