Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[Aman619]

Care to Elaborate? would make great tee-shirts for conventions when approaching dealers booths.

[Darthdiesel]

If dealers feel threatened by this, it must only be because they have something to hide.

 

Great! Guilty until proven innocent I see a lot of people getting behind this now

 

There have been plenty of dealers and collectors who have been practicing full disclosure long before these piddly pressing issues have been brought to the forefront. There is nothing new in these folks' day to day dealings. Your way is not the first, nor is it the only way...

[esquirecomics]

There have been plenty of dealers and collectors who have been practicing full disclosure long before these piddly pressing issues have been brought to the forefront. There is nothing new in these folks' day to day dealings. Your way is not the first, nor is it the only way...

 

That is great news! Of course, I don't recall anyone ever saying otherwise, but it allowed you to use the graemlin and that is a cool one.

 

As far as I am aware (and the decision is not mine to make), the NOD will be sending letters of invitation to all dealers that can be identified. Membership is totally voluntary of course but hopefully all those dealers you are referring to will join. Indeed, some have already expressed interest without even having received a formal invitation from the organization.

[mica]

That is great news! Of course, I don't recall anyone ever saying otherwise,

Nor do I....but some people live in an enchanted world full of wonder.

[Darthdiesel]

That is great news! Of course, I don't recall anyone ever saying otherwise,

Nor do I....but some people live in an enchanted world full of wonder.

 

Some people dwell in a debilitating, festering, miserable sort of existence where all people trying to earn a buck are automatically evil scumbags just trying to get over on others and any who might support them, economically or ideologically, must be shouted down with inane redundant complaints that everyone understood and ignored the first time around.

[OldGuy]

evil scumbags just trying to get over on others

 

[Aman619]

That is great news! Of course, I don't recall anyone ever saying otherwise,

Nor do I....but some people live in an enchanted world full of wonder.

 

Some people dwell in a debilitating, festering, miserable sort of existence where all people trying to earn a buck are automatically evil scumbags just trying to get over on others and any who might support them, economically or ideologically, must be shouted down with inane redundant complaints that everyone understood and ignored the first time around.

 

cmon... you just wrote the Websters dictionery definition of a comic dealer! And, in business in general in any walk of life where there are not clear stringent rules in place (that are enforceable!) How many here think the ratio of "honest dealers" to shady is more 9:1 as opposed to 1:9???

 

really... lets have a show of hands.

[mica]

inane redundant

[october]

Given the ignorance of the community to this issue the less he speaks the more insulated he remains.

 

I think you are mistaking apathy for ignorance. A vast majority of comic fans, even a vast majority of vintage back issue buyers, care neither for slabs nor high grade books. All it takes is a single trip to a single con, or a casual glance through a day's worth of eBay sales to realize that. While I understand (sort of) the passion for this debate, I think its important to keep a sense of perspective and realize that most collectors either don't care about pressing, or wouldn't care if they knew about it...simply because they don't have to. This is a debate couched in a niche within a niche. Sure, a bunch of the guys buying $5-15 books don't know about pressing, but why would they care even if they did? It's all too easy to vastly inflate the importance of this issue in terms of the collecting community as a whole. When compared to lack of readership and lack of security for online transactions, pressing isn't even a blip on the radar.

[jimm94]

Count me in as someone who does not consider the majority of comic dealers to be the "enemy", "shady", etc... I approach all transactions carefully regardless of who it is, but this supposed to be a fun hobby. I don't operate under the auspices that dealers are "out to get me" as a buyer. If I'm so worried I'm going to get screwed at every turn that it's no longer fun to collect comics, it's time to stop. I understand that the more you spend on a book the more risk you are taking, but it should all be relative to your personal comfort level and financial situation. The most I've ever spent on a single book is $1,000. Some may poo-poo that as an insignificant amount, but I can only speak from my own experiences. If that doesn't give me enough street cred or whatever to discuss issues facing the hobby, then so be it.

 

Yes, there are outright crooks and dealers who turn me off for a variety of reasons, but I choose to simply not deal with them in the future.

[Red Hook]

That is great news! Of course, I don't recall anyone ever saying otherwise,

Nor do I....but some people live in an enchanted world full of wonder.

 

Some people dwell in a debilitating, festering, miserable sort of existence where all people trying to earn a buck are automatically evil scumbags just trying to get over on others and any who might support them, economically or ideologically, must be shouted down with inane redundant complaints that everyone understood and ignored the first time around.

 

Gee, who called who an "evil scumbag"? I do remember Comgeek calling me a scumbag (but we worked that all out), and I do remember Scott calling some 15-year-old con artist a scumbag....but other than that.......

 

You kiss your kids with that mouth?

[october]

and I do remember Scott calling some 15-year-old con artist a scumbag

 

I remember that.

[Ze-man]

How many here think the ratio of "honest dealers" to shady is more 9:1 as opposed to 1:9???

 

really... lets have a show of hands.

 

To be fair. Are we talking about dealers in our pond? Or are we talking more about the average scumbag dealer on Ebay?

 

To use a very bad analogy. Our pond is probably not as full of sharks as the big open water.

 

Our sharks are just smarter

 

 

Ze-

[LearnedHand]

In fact, let's examine whether it is accurate to assert that people are on a crusade or campaign on the issue of pressing and restoration. In the last week here are the stats for select forumites (who have argued on both sides of the equation) on the amount of time they spent addressing these specific issues. The first number represents the posts in pressing and/or restoration threads while the second number is the total number of posts (when I ran the search of course). Then the percentage of posts they made on pressing/restoration:

 

29/51 Foolkiller 57%

 

52/69 FFB 75%

 

2/2 LearnedHand 100%

 

38/84 Red Hook 45%

 

22/56 Scheradon 39%

 

80/122 EsquireComics 66%

 

Now, I've never accused anyone of launching a "campaign" or "crusade", both of which I interpret as derrogatory terms in the manner they have been used, and I won't do so now. But these stats are interesting, are they not?

 

A better way to look at this data - is accurately. And that would be as follows:

 

You have posted 80 times on this subject in the last week, which is 3 posts shy of the aggregated total of FK, FFB, and me. Meaning you virtually, single-handedly, out-posted the entire combined total of all specified opposing voices. And, to use the data you provided accurately for your intended purpose, the number of posts by you this week (alone) on pressing are:

 

276% greater than Foolkiller’s

154% greater than FFB’s

4,000% greater than mine (LearnedHand’s)

 

And this data doesn’t even address the fact that you’ve started the predominant number of threads on pressing. Let’s try to keep things real.

 

The Network of Disclosure does not mandate disclosure upon anyone who is not a member of NOD. Membership, of course, is completely a voluntary decision. I am of the opinion that as this issue receives wider recognition more and more people will adopt the disclosure stance. If dealers feel threatened by this, it must only be because they have something to hide. I am not aware of any specific dealers being targeted for anything. If they believe otherwise, they are under a misimpression.

 

I notice that you do this on occasion – it seems you make statements that are untrue only because you know 99% of your audience is unaware of the facts. Since you’ve opened the door and mentioned the NOD, you may recall your campaign on NOD emails where YOU wanted to circulate a questionnaire and find out how dealers felt about pressing/if they pressed, and you were one of the people that wanted consequences - a list of NDP’ers on the NOD website! Many NOD members were against this questionnaire idea (including some of your most ardent allies). You may also recall emailing me discretely on this issue, wanting to know whether I supported you before you continued your one-man email campaign (apparently, you didn’t want to end up in a battle with me too). Finally, you might recall that, after I told you I thought that casting stones is not a way to impress anyone with what NOD should be about – setting an ethical standard (and that a black-list was something we could address later, if there was demand), you capitulated. So I think you are aware of a desire to target. Very well aware, as you are one of the people that wants them targeted.

 

I am trying my best not to endlessly, as some have exclaimed, repeat myself on these issues. Some, such as LearnedHand most recently, have noted they wish the debate would move forward. Easy to say without suggesting any ways in which to do so. That seems to be the primary tactic nowadays.

 

I want to be clear on this point:

 

By moving this conversation forward, I mean that those people that think NDP is a problem should do what they would have to do in any other life situation – stop complaining and seek proposed solutions to the fundamental problem. And solving your (not just referring to you Mark) problems is your responsibility. The problem here is - properly performed pressing cannot be definitively detected. If there are positive strides to make, then let’s hasten to make them. But what has been done to address this problem to date? Aside from complaining about how unfair and unethical NDP is, the focus has been on ancillary issues that offer a solution to nothing:

 

1 - You proposed mandatory disclosure and pointed to the gemstone field as a parallel. My due diligence showed there is no mandatory disclosure relative to gemstones.

 

2 - You focused on the definition of restoration. Some of us pointed out that this (alone) will not deter NDP.

 

3 - You discussed how one grading company in the currency field handles pressing. Based on the data you provided, it seemed clear that currency is a very different animal and of no support here.

 

Has any of this addressed the fundamental problem? No.

 

As a lawyer, I look at facts, logic, and reality in order to perform my analysis and form an opinion. It is my observation that when any of us (FK, FFB, me) want to debate the facts and reality, you and a few others go back to the same defective platitudes and become incensed.

 

Posts that provide reality should not be persecuted or diminished simply because we cannot provide solutions to your notional problems. And, we shouldn’t be viewed as against anything (as I indicated, I feel all tampering is restoration). I’ve yet to have a client view me as the enemy when, instead of simply patronizing their untenable desires, I provide good sound advice based on fact, reality, and logic.

 

 

Regarding your other post:

 

Quote: That aside, from the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly.

 

Acted "accordingly"?

 

Care to elaborate Peter?

 

Sounds like an opposing crusade or campaign brewing or underway to me.

 

Actually, I said, “from the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly.”

 

I have good relationships with many dealers, and some are friends – many do not read these Boards but know about the buzz over pressing. It’s my opinion that there is an undercurrent because they feel they are guilty until proven innocent. As an example, one dealer friend told me that he suspected a book he’d purchased might have been pressed, but he wasn’t sure (and obviously, he didn’t have the book pressed). But he bought it encapsulated by CGC with a blue label. Based on what he’s heard about these pressing threads, he thought it was more prudent to simply rely on the CGC label than to open a can of worms of possible misinterpretations. Alienating people - this may not be a desired result of your academic campaign, but it was easily foreseeable.

 

Finally, this conversation has more than run its course.

[Ze-man]

Well, so much for removing emotion from the equation.

 

Ze-

[FFB]

Well, so much for removing emotion from the equation.

 

Ze-

 

In what way was that an "emotional" post?

[esquirecomics]

Given the ignorance of the community to this issue the less he speaks the more insulated he remains.

 

I think you are mistaking apathy for ignorance. A vast majority of comic fans, even a vast majority of vintage back issue buyers, care neither for slabs nor high grade books. All it takes is a single trip to a single con, or a casual glance through a day's worth of eBay sales to realize that. While I understand (sort of) the passion for this debate, I think its important to keep a sense of perspective and realize that most collectors either don't care about pressing, or wouldn't care if they knew about it...simply because they don't have to. This is a debate couched in a niche within a niche. Sure, a bunch of the guys buying $5-15 books don't know about pressing, but why would they care even if they did? It's all too easy to vastly inflate the importance of this issue in terms of the collecting community as a whole. When compared to lack of readership and lack of security for online transactions, pressing isn't even a blip on the radar.

 

I wouldn't say the apathy for ignorance comparison works across the boards entirely but in general I totally agree with your post.

 

At every con I see more and more $1 books and below. The majority of collectors probably even if they did know about pressing would not "care" in the sense of it impacting them. Of course, that doesn't mean they might not have an opinion one way or the other. There are numerous people on these boards who continually say the issue doesn't impact them personally but they voice their opinion. Plus, of course, this is an issue that impacts me significantly b/c I do deal with slabs and high grade books.

[ShoNuff-migration]

As a lawyer, I look at facts, logic, and reality in order to perform my analysis and form an opinion. It is my observation that when any of us (FK, FFB, me) want to debate the facts and reality, you and a few others go back to the same defective platitudes and become incensed.

One thing about living in Santa Carla I never could stomach...all the damn vampires lawyers.

[Aman619]

How many here think the ratio of "honest dealers" to shady is more 9:1 as opposed to 1:9???

 

really... lets have a show of hands.

 

To be fair. Are we talking about dealers in our pond? Or are we talking more about the average scumbag dealer on Ebay?

 

To use a very bad analogy. Our pond is probably not as full of sharks as the big open water.

 

Our sharks are just smarter

 

 

Ze-

 

Im talking about the whole range on a scale from 1 to 10. I may be cynical, but I dont believe all dealers are 8s, 9s and 10s (most shady). But like angels dancing on the head of a pin, I truly dont think there are more than 1 or 2 in 10 that I could trust implicitly not to sieze the advantage at my expense in a transaction if I didnt utilize all my wits and attention to detail. I know thats my job.... but it would be better if I dont have to watch my back so strenuously to protect myself.

 

But attention all dealers: Im not calling you all crooks. Im not calling ANY of you 'crooks'. Im arguing against the premise that you arent more prone to forget to tell us a twenty fell on the floor in a transaction (meaning theres an defect thats unnoted on the sticker in the book Im buying that will lower its grade if I dont search it out and catch it myself) rather than open it up and point it out to me. Thats all.

[esquirecomics]

In fact, let's examine whether it is accurate to assert that people are on a crusade or campaign on the issue of pressing and restoration. In the last week here are the stats for select forumites (who have argued on both sides of the equation) on the amount of time they spent addressing these specific issues. The first number represents the posts in pressing and/or restoration threads while the second number is the total number of posts (when I ran the search of course). Then the percentage of posts they made on pressing/restoration:

 

29/51 Foolkiller 57%

 

52/69 FFB 75%

 

2/2 LearnedHand 100%

 

38/84 Red Hook 45%

 

22/56 Scheradon 39%

 

80/122 EsquireComics 66%

 

Now, I've never accused anyone of launching a "campaign" or "crusade", both of which I interpret as derrogatory terms in the manner they have been used, and I won't do so now. But these stats are interesting, are they not?

 

A better way to look at this data - is accurately. And that would be as follows:

 

You have posted 80 times on this subject in the last week, which is 3 posts shy of the aggregated total of FK, FFB, and me. Meaning you virtually, single-handedly, out-posted the entire combined total of all specified opposing voices. And, to use the data you provided accurately for your intended purpose, the number of posts by you this week (alone) on pressing are:

 

276% greater than Foolkiller’s

154% greater than FFB’s

4,000% greater than mine (LearnedHand’s)

 

And this data doesn’t even address the fact that you’ve started the predominant number of threads on pressing. Let’s try to keep things real.

 

You can modify the numbers all you like, but the ones I stated are still accurate. But the primary and interesting issue is that no one should be surprised by the number of my posts b/c I continually demonstrate that this is an issue, for whatever reason anyone ascribes to me, that I am particularly interested in. So of course I would post a lot. Yet, you guys continually denounce the issue as unimportant and a whole host of other colorful adjectives but the numbers reflect you spend more time, or almost as much time, on the issue than I do as a matter of percentages! Am I the only one who sees the irony of that! Of course, you had only two posts which is statistically insignificant.

 

The Network of Disclosure does not mandate disclosure upon anyone who is not a member of NOD. Membership, of course, is completely a voluntary decision. I am of the opinion that as this issue receives wider recognition more and more people will adopt the disclosure stance. If dealers feel threatened by this, it must only be because they have something to hide. I am not aware of any specific dealers being targeted for anything. If they believe otherwise, they are under a misimpression.

 

I notice that you do this on occasion – it seems you make statements that are untrue only because you know 99% of your audience is unaware of the facts. Since you’ve opened the door and mentioned the NOD, you may recall your campaign on NOD emails where YOU wanted to circulate a questionnaire and find out how dealers felt about pressing/if they pressed, and you were one of the people that wanted consequences - a list of NDP’ers on the NOD website! Many NOD members were against this questionnaire idea (including some of your most ardent allies). You may also recall emailing me discretely on this issue, wanting to know whether I supported you before you continued your one-man email campaign (apparently, you didn’t want to end up in a battle with me too). Finally, you might recall that, after I told you I thought that casting stones is not a way to impress anyone with what NOD should be about – setting an ethical standard (and that a black-list was something we could address later, if there was demand), you capitulated. So I think you are aware of a desire to target. Very well aware, as you are one of the people that wants them targeted.

 

So, counselor, how is my statement above untrue? How have I lied about what the NOD decided? I haven't. Not one statement I wrote above is false. What your comments reflect is the fact that I am more than open to changing my views or recognizing when it is best to back away and not push an isssue. I do have different opinions from others, including those within the NOD. But they spoke (including you with your sage advice). I listened. I defered. You want to call it "capitulation", whatever.

 

And now you have a problem with that? So, what, I should have continued to push my own views against the NOD? I suppose that would support the portrait of me that you and some others want to paint, but it doesn't reflect the truth. Apparently I am damned if I do, and damned if I don't. Well, that seems fair. Thanks Peter. I appreciate the vote of confidence.

 

I am trying my best not to endlessly, as some have exclaimed, repeat myself on these issues. Some, such as LearnedHand most recently, have noted they wish the debate would move forward. Easy to say without suggesting any ways in which to do so. That seems to be the primary tactic nowadays.

 

I want to be clear on this point:

 

By moving this conversation forward, I mean that those people that think NDP is a problem should do what they would have to do in any other life situation – stop complaining and seek proposed solutions to the fundamental problem. And solving your (not just referring to you Mark) problems is your responsibility. The problem here is - properly performed pressing cannot be definitively detected. If there are positive strides to make, then let’s hasten to make them. But what has been done to address this problem to date? Aside from complaining about how unfair and unethical NDP is, the focus has been on ancillary issues that offer a solution to nothing:

 

1 - You proposed mandatory disclosure and pointed to the gemstone field as a parallel. My due diligence showed there is no mandatory disclosure relative to gemstones.

 

2 - You focused on the definition of restoration. Some of us pointed out that this (alone) will not deter NDP.

 

3 - You discussed how one grading company in the currency field handles pressing. Based on the data you provided, it seemed clear that currency is a very different animal and of no support here.

 

Has any of this addressed the fundamental problem? No.

 

As a lawyer, I look at facts, logic, and reality in order to perform my analysis and form an opinion. It is my observation that when any of us (FK, FFB, me) want to debate the facts and reality, you and a few others go back to the same defective platitudes and become incensed.

 

Posts that provide reality should not be persecuted or diminished simply because we cannot provide solutions to your notional problems. And, we shouldn’t be viewed as against anything (as I indicated, I feel all tampering is restoration). I’ve yet to have a client view me as the enemy when, instead of simply patronizing their untenable desires, I provide good sound advice based on fact, reality, and logic.

 

Basically, lets sum this up Peter as a dose of reality. What you are saying is that you guys are right because you disagree with what I have articulated, and thats it. No room whatsoever for those who disagree with you. My analysis is wrong. Not based on facts or logic. All defective platitudes. You should get a job with the CIA. These arguments sound familiar!

 

And now we are bringing our clients' views into the debate? This is relevant, how? Should I post platitudes from my clients to counter yours? I'm sorry but I don't see how your client relations skills substantively adds to your arguments.

 

Regarding your other post:

 

Quote: That aside, from the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly.

 

Acted "accordingly"?

 

Care to elaborate Peter?

 

Sounds like an opposing crusade or campaign brewing or underway to me.

 

Actually, I said, “from the dealers to whom I’ve spoken, it’s clear that they feel there is a witch-hunt in process, and they’re acting accordingly.”

 

I have good relationships with many dealers, and some are friends – many do not read these Boards but know about the buzz over pressing. It’s my opinion that there is an undercurrent because they feel they are guilty until proven innocent. As an example, one dealer friend told me that he suspected a book he’d purchased might have been pressed, but he wasn’t sure (and obviously, he didn’t have the book pressed). But he bought it encapsulated by CGC with a blue label. Based on what he’s heard about these pressing threads, he thought it was more prudent to simply rely on the CGC label than to open a can of worms of possible misinterpretations. Alienating people - this may not be a desired result of your academic campaign, but it was easily foreseeable.

 

You've avoided the question for elaboration, but that's ok. Having suspicion of a pressed or restored book has never been an issue. If you read my articles you'd know I specifically addressed this point. No one should be guessing, and disclosure does not apply until the individuals knows that something has previously been done to the book.

 

Peter, exactly why are you in the NOD? Frankly, I welcome your participation. You're intelligent and articulate and can obviously be a strong advocate for any issue you pursue, but I don't understand given your views why you would join an organization in which membership mandates disclosure when you don't see it as a solution to a problem.

 

Finally, this conversation has more than run its course.

 

May well have, but no doubt those of you who seem bent on disagreeing will still post in it.