Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[THE_BEYONDER]

If our constant "complaining" has zero impact....I can't quite understand why you would even bother to reply to it. Why debate a non-issue? Why attempt to minimalize our arguments?

 

Why waste your time?

 

What is it that we're saying that compels you to respond?

 

[Foolkiller]

At this rate, this is never going to end.

 

I'm sure there's more that I could "add" to this discussion, but I feel like I'm being counter productive at this point --

 

and running in circles.

 

Probably didn't display much in the line of leadership qualities and leading by example in this thread -- and I think what this proves (and I'm only going to cite the two of us) is that both Mark and I can be as petty as the next person. And perhaps neither of us are equipped to be any kind of voice for the masses in the comic book hobby.

[esquirecomics]

At this rate, this is never going to end.

 

I'm sure there's more that I could "add" to this discussion, but I feel like I'm being counter productive at this point --

 

and running in circles.

 

Probably didn't display much in the line of leadership qualities and leading by example in this thread -- and I think what this proves (and I'm only going to cite the two of us) is that both Mark and I can be as petty as the next person. And perhaps neither of us are equipped to be any kind of voice for the masses in the comic book hobby.

 

Or that we should simply find a way to better join forces where there is common ground, which we certainly have, and simply allow the other to agree to disagree on the other issues.

 

If Carville and Matalin can be married to one another and still perform the jobs they do, I can't believe that those of us on opposite sides of the issue in this comic book thread can't look beyond it.

[Aman619]

At this rate, this is never going to end.

 

I'm sure there's more that I could "add" to this discussion, but I feel like I'm being counter productive at this point --

 

and running in circles.

 

Probably didn't display much in the line of leadership qualities and leading by example in this thread -- and I think what this proves (and I'm only going to cite the two of us) is that both Mark and I can be as petty as the next person. And perhaps neither of us are equipped to be any kind of voice for the masses in the comic book hobby.

 

good post. But dont recuse yourself out of a personal vice (that we all share). I think any and all of you lawyers who think clearly and write persuasively can do A LOT of good in reaching the hobby. How about this for a start. If I remember correctly (maybe) all of you are in agreement that pressing is restoration, right? And where we disagree is what to do about it.

 

So why not wokr together to lock in that crucial first issue: Pressing IS restoration. If we can get that universally agreed upon, the rest just might fall into place.

[Aman619]

At this rate, this is never going to end.

 

I'm sure there's more that I could "add" to this discussion, but I feel like I'm being counter productive at this point --

 

and running in circles.

 

Probably didn't display much in the line of leadership qualities and leading by example in this thread -- and I think what this proves (and I'm only going to cite the two of us) is that both Mark and I can be as petty as the next person. And perhaps neither of us are equipped to be any kind of voice for the masses in the comic book hobby.

 

Or that we should simply find a way to better join forces where there is common ground, which we certainly have, and simply allow the other to agree to disagree on the other issues.

 

If Carville and Matalin can be married to one another and still perform the jobs they do, I can't believe that those of us on opposite sides of the issue in this comic book thread can't look beyond it.

 

awww. I swear Im tearing up ovah heah!!!

[Davenport]

 

If Carville and Matalin can be married to one another and still perform the jobs they do, I can't believe that those of us on opposite sides of the issue in this comic book thread can't look beyond it.

 

awww. I swear Im tearing up ovah heah!!!

Everytime Carville gets mentioned I think about that "Family Guy" where Peter Griffin was so startled James Carville's face:

 

"Oh, God. Oh, jeez! Did somebody open the Ark of the Covenant?"

 

[Timulty]

Same here!!!

[Ze-man]

At this rate, this is never going to end.

 

I'm sure there's more that I could "add" to this discussion, but I feel like I'm being counter productive at this point --

 

and running in circles.

 

Probably didn't display much in the line of leadership qualities and leading by example in this thread -- and I think what this proves (and I'm only going to cite the two of us) is that both Mark and I can be as petty as the next person. And perhaps neither of us are equipped to be any kind of voice for the masses in the comic book hobby.

 

This was my point exactly when I made my "so much for taking emotion out of the equation comment". Obviously both sides of this issue enjoy a rightful semblence of validity until proven otherwise. Or else there would be no need to discuss it so. There is simply too much talent, and too much mutual respect in this room to let anything but foward discussion dictate what takes place. Alas we are only human. So when I see people making reference % charts about who has posted how much more % then the next guy. Well to me that is anything but beneficial to the task at hand.

 

THAT was all I meant by my comment. Many a good point can be lost in the mix , when they are mixed in with bias, or emotion. Not to say this thread is really all that heated. It just seems to be a good time to step off and take a breath.

 

I wish I personally had more to contribute to this conversation. Quite frankly it is beyond me right now. If I had something pertinent to offer, I would add it to my already voiced opinions on the matter. All I can offer is what I see. And of course criticize it. I took a break from posting about pressing recently, perhaps everyone else should too. See what it looks like after a brief walkabout. It will still be here.Then sit down and rehash the same thing again, but perhaps with new insight, and direction.

 

LH, I did not mean to single you out in my post.Factually I have no problems with what you said. It was more a blanket statement about how this has all unfolded , it was not fair to poke my stick in only your direction. Your post was just most recent.

 

And Scott.. It is still your B Day.(at least on the West Coast. Eat well and be merry.). I will try and think about what I post in the future, cause once I do it is out there to be taken literally. I feel like this was the case in my last post you replied to. You have a way of pointing out one of my main flaws. Speaking!

 

I am just bone tired, that is my excuse. And I am sticking to it.

 

Ze-

[CentaurMan]

Anyone else wonder if Mark would be so up in arms over the whole pressing thing if he hadn't jumped headlong into paying big prices for high-grade slabs on Heritage, only to discover after the fact that what he thought was "best existing copy" actually had competition based on press/resubs? I remember some thread a while back where he was upset because his Mad #1 9.8 (not a scarce book even in high grade, with a dozen books at 9.0 or better plus who knows how many that haven't been slabbed), bought on Heritage (for what, $32K?) turned out not to be as scarce as he thought. Shortly thereafter he went on his anti-pressing crusade.

 

I may have the facts wrong on the book/price/venue, but I think my point is the same and reflects what october hinted at earlier: This is something Mark cares passionately about because it affects the value of his collection, which I believe he began amassing a couple of years ago by throwing money around without really understanding the dynamics of the market. I think a number of us have been aware of pro pressing for a while, which has always had an impact on the increasing supply of high-grade books. However, it's not an issue that a huge percentage of collectors care about, other than spectator value, and given Mark's vested interest I find it hard to separate his sense of Justice For All from his sense of being wronged.

 

While I think that changing books solely for profit is reprehensible, it's totally understandable that it would occur in a money-driven hobby, and given how powerful the lure of money is to people, I don't think making a whole lot of noise about it will stop deceitful people from trying to make more money.

 

(Apologies to Mark if I've mischaracterized his actions. I'm just writing what my impressions are based on reading these boards).

[drbanner]

I think several posters have alluded to that, so you're not off target. Unfortunately, anyone spending big $$ on books and concerned about them having been pressed is pretty much going to have to continue to be concerned, and worrying about it all the time would take all the fun out of the hobby if it was me. But I guess your point is that, for them, is it really a hobby, or is it a business/investment?

 

CGC doesn't consider pressing to be restoration, and even if they did, you can't detect properly done pressing in the first place. If you can detect it, that means the book was "damaged" and it should be down-graded accordingly. The disclosure solution is ok, but unless the seller personally had the book pressed, the best answer you're gonna get is "To my knowledge, this book has not been pressed." This is the answer you're going to get from the consignment sites (Heritage, Comiclink) as well. Unlike other types of restoration like CT or piece replacement, the only way one will ever know if a book has been pressed is if someone tells them it has...which takes us back to disclosure as the only real solution, albeit an imperfect one.

[Aman619]

Anyone else wonder if Mark would be so up in arms over the whole pressing thing if he hadn't jumped headlong into paying big prices for high-grade slabs on Heritage, only to discover after the fact that what he thought was "best existing copy" actually had competition based on press/resubs? I remember some thread a while back where he was upset because his Mad #1 9.8 (not a scarce book even in high grade, with a dozen books at 9.0 or better plus who knows how many that haven't been slabbed), bought on Heritage (for what, $32K?) turned out not to be as scarce as he thought. Shortly thereafter he went on his anti-pressing crusade.

 

I may have the facts wrong on the book/price/venue, but I think my point is the same and reflects what october hinted at earlier: This is something Mark cares passionately about because it affects the value of his collection, which I believe he began amassing a couple of years ago by throwing money around without really understanding the dynamics of the market. I think a number of us have been aware of pro pressing for a while, which has always had an impact on the increasing supply of high-grade books. However, it's not an issue that a huge percentage of collectors care about, other than spectator value, and given Mark's vested interest I find it hard to separate his sense of Justice For All from his sense of being wronged.

 

While I think that changing books solely for profit is reprehensible, it's totally understandable that it would occur in a money-driven hobby, and given how powerful the lure of money is to people, I don't think making a whole lot of noise about it will stop deceitful people from trying to make more money.

 

(Apologies to Mark if I've mischaracterized his actions. I'm just writing what my impressions are based on reading these boards).

 

Everything is relative, and all politics is personal. But saying Mark is so strongly against pressing solely BECAUSE he owns HG books is like saying Bush went after Hussain becaue he tried to kill his daddy. It may be one of the reasons, but not the prime motivation. So please dont now go after Mark as a selfish greedy [embarrassing lack of self control] ONLY seeking to protect his investments. To whatever degree it influences his passion, his subsequent actions serve to protect EVERYONE's collection against those willing to bend the rules with backdoor grade-bumping techniques w/o disclosing it was done.

 

I suppose that MLK's cause was suspect since he too would get to ride anywhere he wanted on the busses, huh? Try to name a wrong to be righted thats WASNT led or espoused by someone NOT affected negatively by the status quo? I can only think of polticians and oped writers.

[Aman619]

...and since you agree that changing books solely for profit is reprehensible dont throw tomatoes at the guy at the podium damning the transgressors!!

[LearnedHand]

Yet, you guys continually denounce the issue as unimportant and a whole host of other colorful adjectives but the numbers reflect you spend more time, or almost as much time, on the issue than I do as a matter of percentages! Am I the only one who sees the irony of that! Of course, you had only two posts which is statistically insignificant.

 

Yes, the three of you have issues, I agree.

 

So, counselor, how is my statement above untrue? How have I lied about what the NOD decided? I haven't. Not one statement I wrote above is false. What your comments reflect is the fact that I am more than open to changing my views or recognizing when it is best to back away and not push an isssue. I do have different opinions from others, including those within the NOD. But they spoke (including you with your sage advice). I listened. I defered. You want to call it "capitulation", whatever.

 

And now you have a problem with that? So, what, I should have continued to push my own views against the NOD? I suppose that would support the portrait of me that you and some others want to paint, but it doesn't reflect the truth. Apparently I am damned if I do, and damned if I don't. Well, that seems fair. Thanks Peter. I appreciate the vote of confidence.

 

Mark, I want to further clarify, as it seems that you’re missing the point (or maybe I’m not being clear?), evidenced by the fact that we’re getting carried away. I wasn’t insinuating that you’re a liar. I’ve known you to go far out of your way for friends, and as I’ve told you on more than one occasion, I think a lot of you. Maybe I should have said that your statement is not 100% true. My point is that you stated that you are unaware of any dealers being targeted (which is technically true), but it’s also true that you expressed a desire to target dealers. And the fact that NOD decided otherwise has nothing to do with your personal desires - of which you are perfectly aware. As an aside, after I told you how I felt on the subject, I actually thought it was very much to your credit that you recognized a differing opinion and decided to move on. We need not discuss this further, as it seems to have been a small technical point that went awry.

 

Basically, lets sum this up Peter as a dose of reality. What you are saying is that you guys are right because you disagree with what I have articulated, and thats it. No room whatsoever for those who disagree with you. My analysis is wrong. Not based on facts or logic. All defective platitudes. You should get a job with the CIA. These arguments sound familiar!

 

And now we are bringing our clients' views into the debate? This is relevant, how? Should I post platitudes from my clients to counter yours? I'm sorry but I don't see how your client relations skills substantively adds to your arguments.

 

If anyone is right, it’s because the facts support their statements. In this case, the so-called experts – CGC and Susan Cicconi have both said that intact pressing (or spine roll removal), when properly performed, is impossible to detect. Moreover, if you read Mark Wilson’s Scoop article, you’d know that he cut a book in two, pressed one-half, and sent both halves to a laboratory for testing. After aging both halves to 25 years, there were no apparent differences. If you want to ignore all serious evidence on the subject, that’s your prerogative. But my point was that, I believe you to be a good lawyer that considers facts, reality, and logic in forming logical and reasonable opinions. Therefore, I expected you to hone in on the problem and either come to the conclusion supported by all serious evidence, or, if unsatisfied with this, propose discussing possible solutions. Instead, the discussion has stagnated on ancillary points – and we’re all responsible for this.

 

You've avoided the question for elaboration, but that's ok. Having suspicion of a pressed or restored book has never been an issue. If you read my articles you'd know I specifically addressed this point. No one should be guessing, and disclosure does not apply until the individuals knows that something has previously been done to the book.

 

Mark, I elaborated. You’ll note that my elaboration was provided via an example in which I stated that many dealers I know do not read the Boards or your articles. They simply know about the pressing buzz – so telling me why they shouldn’t have a problem with you position makes no sense. And, even if you have a reasonable opinion, this doesn’t mean that every anti-NDP’er shares it.

 

Peter, exactly why are you in the NOD? Frankly, I welcome your participation. You're intelligent and articulate and can obviously be a strong advocate for any issue you pursue, but I don't understand given your views why you would join an organization in which membership mandates disclosure when you don't see it as a solution to a problem.

 

The point of NOD is for participants to be ethical in their dealings and offer affirmative disclosure. Disclosure is simply a manifestation of ethical dealing. Disclosure (and ethics) should never be contingent on, or compromised by, anything else – regardless of disclosure’s affect on “anything else.” Maybe I’m wrong, but I get the sense that you don’t understand what the point of NOD is, as you seem to question people’s NOD involvement simply because they don’t see things as you do.

 

Example: why would my participation in NOD be at all in question simply because I happen to live in reality? The fact that there is no solution to detecting pressing has nothing to do with ethical dealing, nor does it have anything to do with affirmative disclosure. Many people have always operated ethically and have been only too happy to disclose what we know. NOD changes nothing. It simply organizes some people of like mind.

 

 

Finally:

 

I don’t see this discussion as anything but petty and destructive at this point. I have said on many occasions that we should try to make forward constructive progress. Instead, we are now debating over how many times people post (or what that means), why people want to post on this thread if they cannot offer solutions, why people tune-in if they don’t want to hear the same complaints regurgitated over and over again. I don’t think it’s your intention to dwell on petty or pointless things, so I’d like to ask for your help in staying positive and moving things forward.

[october]

To whatever degree it influences his passion, his subsequent actions serve to protect EVERYONE's collection against those willing to bend the rules with backdoor grade-bumping techniques w/o disclosing it was done.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

[Davenport]

If anyone is right, it’s because the facts support their statements. In this case, the so-called experts – CGC and Susan Cicconi have both said that intact pressing (or spine roll removal), when properly performed, is impossible to detect.

"As an added concern, most professional jobs would be very hard to detect and in my opinion, it would be difficult to "disclose" that a service has been rendered. However, depending on the right circumstances such as age of book, type of book and provenance, I feel confident that I could detect if pressing was administered." -Susan Cicconi Policy on Pressing

 

http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php?article_id=2

[FFB]

[

 

If anyone is right, it’s because the facts support their statements. In this case, the so-called experts – CGC and Susan Cicconi have both said that intact pressing (or spine roll removal), when properly performed, is impossible to detect.

"As an added concern, most professional jobs would be very hard to detect and in my opinion, it would be difficult to "disclose" that a service has been rendered. However, depending on the right circumstances such as age of book, type of book and provenance, I feel confident that I could detect if pressing was administered." -Susan Cicconi Policy on Pressing

 

http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php?article_id=2

 

I flew to Israel last night by flapping my arms. I'm pretty sure I could do it again.

[Aman619]

you are right... but cmon. just because only 1 in 30 collectors are worried about the issue shouldnt mean they have to be silent, or not take steps to prevent it, right? What it really means IMO (or should mean perhaps), is that maybe those 29 out of 30 NOT afffected ought to just stay out of the discussion since it does not affect them in the least. Everyone's opinion is valid of course so Im not saying to anyone "mind your own business." But why NOT just keep the discussion between those it DOES affect? Why should all manner of disinterested (except at a voyeurs level) opinions be involved in what (BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION) does not matter to them or what they collect.

 

If pressing doesnt bother someone, or just isnt on their radar or a worry for their collection, then dont all their comments beyond stating "I dont mind pressing. So be it." boil down to, basically, (as has crept thru many comments), a sort of reverse snobby "have-not's envy"? I dont mean to provoke a class war... so I hope you know what I mean by that. If its affects so few, then let just those affected hash it out amongst themselves....

[Aman619]

[

 

If anyone is right, it’s because the facts support their statements. In this case, the so-called experts – CGC and Susan Cicconi have both said that intact pressing (or spine roll removal), when properly performed, is impossible to detect.

"As an added concern, most professional jobs would be very hard to detect and in my opinion, it would be difficult to "disclose" that a service has been rendered. However, depending on the right circumstances such as age of book, type of book and provenance, I feel confident that I could detect if pressing was administered." -Susan Cicconi Policy on Pressing

 

http://www.therestorationlab.com/article.php?article_id=2

 

I flew to Israel last night by flapping my arms. I'm pretty sure I could do it again.

 

prove it! or I guess youre saying Susan just SAYS she detected pressing, huh? Lets suggest Matt send those two halves to Susan, or soem other "test", not that it will prove anything.. except her varacity and truthiness!

[nik]

Although I dont consider myself a HG collector, I do fully appreaciate finding a true un-altered HG book. To me its a thing of beauty and preservation over the years, as I believe alot of collectors feel the same. In a case like this I dont have an issue for spending more than guide on a book if I really want it.

 

There is no way for me to express in words how I look at true HG books so I will use a small analogy, stupid as it may be.

 

 

You find a woman you want to go out with, not very attractive but OK. You will probably take her out of couple of times, go to OK restaraunts, put some of kind of an effort hoping to get lucky but if you dont, not a big deal.

 

 

Now you find a smoker of a woman, and you really want to impress her, so you take her to great bars, Class A establishments and hope like heck you get lucky.

 

Now granted not a great analogy but I hope you see what I am trying to say. There are lots of women out there but not alot of knockouts, so when you have a chance for a knockout lady you go for it. This is how I believe alot of HG collectors feel about high grade books.

[FFB]

you are right... but cmon. just because only 1 in 30 collectors are worried about the issue shouldnt mean they have to be silent, or not take steps to prevent it, right? What it really means IMO (or should mean perhaps), is that maybe those 29 out of 30 NOT afffected ought to just stay out of the discussion since it does not affect them in the least. Everyone's opinion is valid of course so Im not saying to anyone "mind your own business." But why NOT just keep the discussion between those it DOES affect? Why should all manner of disinterested (except at a voyeurs level) opinions be involved in what (BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION) does not matter to them or what they collect.

 

If pressing doesnt bother someone, or just isnt on their radar or a worry for their collection, then dont all their comments beyond stating "I dont mind pressing. So be it." boil down to, basically, (as has crept thru many comments), a sort of reverse snobby "have-not's envy"? I dont mean to provoke a class war... so I hope you know what I mean by that. If its affects so few, then let just those affected hash it out amongst themselves....

 

No. If you are trying to establish industry standards, you need some kind of an industry consensus. If the issue is whether there's an affirmative duty to disclose something on an industry-wide basis, the fact that 99.99% of the people in the hobby don't care about it should carry some weight in the discussion of what the industry standard should be. If you only polled those who care about pressing, you'd have an extremely skewed sample that would be misleading and statistically worthless. It would be like basing the US presidential election results on only those votes cast in the smallest town in Rhode Island.