Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[esquirecomics]

Who is the large white dragon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luckdragon

 

Great movie. Love the theme song.

 

Or did you mean which poster is the large white dragon?

 

Kinda.

[codfish]

What I find funny are all the posts about how annoyed people are about Mark's posts on this topic.

 

If you have a problem with them or do not want to read them then just move on to another topic. The only people extending this debate are those that are opposed to Mark's POV.

 

The other thing I have learned from posts here and articles that Matt has written is that I would never use he services. He may be skilled he may know what he is doing but philosophically I have long had problems with many of his perspectives. Many of his views, I feel, cater to money making perspectives instead of preserving history. Matt appears to support the increasingly common practise of performing cosmetic surgery on books that don't really need it. It is shocking to me that some folks out there would actually feel the need to get cosmetic surgery for HG GA and SA books. I have seen plenty of books that I would have killed to own get sold only to reappear magically transformed to an even higher grade and people say nothing was done to them.

 

Come on people it is getting ridiculous. We are starting to support behaviours that many of us have never liked and feel have tarnished our industry. I don't see anything wrong with some of the resto/conservation that gets done but lets be honest that it is being done. Do some of you even understand how zany it must sound to say a book has been intentionally manipulated in some way but that no work had been done to it? Do some people even understand that there are many people out there that are striving very hard to have the nicest non-manipuated collections out there? (NO I am not one of these people BTW) Can you imagine how they feel when they see debates like this? If you were one of these people would you be worried that your hard earned dollars are possibly supporting habits that you are opposed to?

 

It really is a strange debate.

[Red Hook]

No kidding, Cod!

 

And Mark?.....

 

Rock On!

 

Everytime I read another string of whining complaints from the blinders-wearing-don't-rock-the-boat crowd, it just gets me juiced up for another couple months of posting on the subject.

 

Right now, I'm good to go through about July of 2009!

[Foolkiller]

Something October said I thought was very telling -- the debate is taking place with the same basic people and nothing really new is being done on either side.

 

All I'm doing is reminding people of the contrary opinion that exists -- and when you start a pressing thread -- yes of course I'm tired of it, but I feel just as obligated and dug in as Redhook just stated to point out the other side and the feelings of what I believe is the silent majority on this issue.

 

Regardless, the best thing to do is to work outside the boards -- not that I plan on never posting in response to this issue again --

 

But if the NOD succeeds, and people start disclosing -- and they are effective in their tactics, so be it. Perhaps there's more support out there than I'm aware of, it's certainly possible. I just find it ironic that three dealers are spearheading this issue against other dealers, which I think is a conflict of interest.

 

One final thought -- people seem to hold the position that this a blinders on and don't rock the boat -- that couldn't further from the truth: What it's about is a difference in opinion from my end that dealers ought to be forced to disclose a practice I don't feel is necessary is disclose. I can be as stubborn and dug in as the next guy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing.

 

If the NOD succeeds in getting dealers to disclose (on pressing especially) then that's great. Maybe they'll all join and people will only buy from NOD certified dealers. Maybe. But I doubt it.

[Red Hook]

The difference Brian, is that I've never been interested in anything other than a dialogue. I am certainly aware that there are folks that disagree with my position, (which is actually about getting more info out in the open....if someone can prove me wrong, so be it.). And I never tell them to just go away. What gets me is how certain interested parties seem to want to just squelch the whole issue and discussion. That ain't right. Or realistic.

 

I and others have simply been on a fact-finding mission for over two years. I've personally seen enough facts to convince me that there is still a seamy underside to things in the hobby, that affect all collectors and their wallets. I started out asking pretty simple, straightforward questions, and was startled at the reaction or lack of, that I received. I'd obviously hit a nerve.

 

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions. It's another to try and silence those opinions. Big difference.

 

I've been willing to discuss this stuff with anyone and anyone is free to put me on ignore....I encourage it in fact. The irony is that the folks that don't agree with my inquisitiveness have often inflamed the debate with their rhetoric and in fact kept it going.

 

I'm just going to keep asking questions. That's all. I am neither a dealer or a big time collector. Or a lawyer. What I am is very very stubborn.

 

I've said this before....two years ago, the average collector had no friggin' idea what pressing was, or that it was practiced on a wide basis. That's changed completely. I personally think there is a huge difference between a book that naturally arrived in 2006 in highgrade and one that was artificially manipulated into that condition purely for profit, with little or no regard for the longterm effects on the book (unproven at this point) and respect for the book as an example of pop culture. It becomes just grist for their mills.

 

Pressing won't be stopped. That was never a goal of mine. Or running a dealer out of business. That's silly and would be totally presumptuous. I'm satisfied with contributing to helping raise the level of awareness among buyers, and letting them make informed choices.

 

Brad

[Scheradon]

What I find funny are all the posts about how annoyed people are about Mark's posts on this topic.

 

If you have a problem with them or do not want to read them then just move on to another topic. The only people extending this debate are those that are opposed to Mark's POV.

 

The other thing I have learned from posts here and articles that Matt has written is that I would never use he services. He may be skilled he may know what he is doing but philosophically I have long had problems with many of his perspectives. Many of his views, I feel, cater to money making perspectives instead of preserving history. Matt appears to support the increasingly common practise of performing cosmetic surgery on books that don't really need it. It is shocking to me that some folks out there would actually feel the need to get cosmetic surgery for HG GA and SA books. I have seen plenty of books that I would have killed to own get sold only to reappear magically transformed to an even higher grade and people say nothing was done to them.

 

Come on people it is getting ridiculous. We are starting to support behaviours that many of us have never liked and feel have tarnished our industry. I don't see anything wrong with some of the resto/conservation that gets done but lets be honest that it is being done. Do some of you even understand how zany it must sound to say a book has been intentionally manipulated in some way but that no work had been done to it? Do some people even understand that there are many people out there that are striving very hard to have the nicest non-manipuated collections out there? (NO I am not one of these people BTW) Can you imagine how they feel when they see debates like this? If you were one of these people would you be worried that your hard earned dollars are possibly supporting habits that you are opposed to?

 

It really is a strange debate.

 

 

[drbanner]

Something October said I thought was very telling -- the debate is taking place with the same basic people and nothing really new is being done on either side.

This is true, and I think it's hilarious when someone responds with a "Excellent Post Marc/FFB/Red/Brian! " or maybe a " " or a " ", and the ubiquitous " " when the same old same old positions are re-stated, for like the 57th time. This discussion is great for bringing drama and flame wars on the boards, but does not proportionally translate at the same level of drama/controversy in the real world.

 

If the NOD succeeds in getting dealers to disclose (on pressing especially) then that's great. Maybe they'll all join and people will only buy from NOD certified dealers. Maybe. But I doubt it.

Yep, the press-free zone graphic has really caught on.

 

I personally feel pressing should be proactively disclosed by people like Doug and Matt, but it's not going to change my buying habits whether they're NOD certified or not.

[Foolkiller]

The difference Brian, is that I've never been interested in anything other than a dialogue. I am certainly aware that there are folks that disagree with my position, (which is actually about getting more info out in the open....if someone can prove me wrong, so be it.). And I never tell them to just go away. What gets me is how certain interested parties seem to want to just squelch the whole issue and discussion. That ain't right. Or realistic.

 

I and others have simply been on a fact-finding mission for over two years. I've personally seen enough facts to convince me that there is still a seamy underside to things in the hobby, that affect all collectors and their wallets. I started out asking pretty simple, straightforward questions, and was startled at the reaction or lack of, that I received. I'd obviously hit a nerve.

 

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions. It's another to try and silence those opinions. Big difference.

 

I've been willing to discuss this stuff with anyone and anyone is free to put me on ignore....I encourage it in fact. The irony is that the folks that don't agree with my inquisitiveness have often inflamed the debate with their rhetoric and in fact kept it going.

 

I'm just going to keep asking questions. That's all. I am neither a dealer or a big time collector. Or a lawyer. What I am is very very stubborn.

 

I've said this before....two years ago, the average collector had no friggin' idea what pressing was, or that it was practiced on a wide basis. That's changed completely. I personally think there is a huge difference between a book that naturally arrived in 2006 in highgrade and one that was artificially manipulated into that condition purely for profit, with little or no regard for the longterm effects on the book (unproven at this point) and respect for the book as an example of pop culture. It becomes just grist for their mills.

 

Pressing won't be stopped. That was never a goal of mine. Or running a dealer out of business. That's silly and would be totally presumptuous. I'm satisfied with contributing to helping raise the level of awareness among buyers, and letting them make informed choices.

 

Brad

 

Nobody's trying to silence anything, just encouraging a break or a shift to something that is meaningful in the debate. You're asking not to stamp out your viewpoints -- I'm trying to say there's a lot of people tired of it. It's a public message board -- guess what, we both have a right to say what we're saying over and over and over again -- but to what end?

 

I know pressing and manipulation has been around for a long, long time -- and I have no problem with artificial manipulation in the form of pressing or the fact that it's purely for profit.

 

Frankly I think the average collector STILL doesn't know what pressing is, and they don't care. I think the average HG collector knows what pressing is, and they don't care either.

[Scheradon]

Something October said I thought was very telling -- the debate is taking place with the same basic people and nothing really new is being done on either side.

This is true, and I think it's hilarious when someone responds with a "Excellent Post Marc/FFB/Red/Brian! " or maybe a " " or a " ", and the ubiquitous " " when the same old same old positions are re-stated, for like the 57th time. This discussion is great for bringing drama and flame wars on the boards, but does not proportionally translate at the same level of drama/controversy in the real world.

 

If the NOD succeeds in getting dealers to disclose (on pressing especially) then that's great. Maybe they'll all join and people will only buy from NOD certified dealers. Maybe. But I doubt it.

Yep, the press-free zone graphic has really caught on.

 

I personally feel pressing should be proactively disclosed by people like Doug and Matt, but it's not going to change my buying habits whether they're NOD certified or not.

 

 

You forgot this graemlin...

[drbanner]

Something October said I thought was very telling -- the debate is taking place with the same basic people and nothing really new is being done on either side.

This is true, and I think it's hilarious when someone responds with a "Excellent Post Marc/FFB/Red/Brian! " or maybe a " " or a " ", and the ubiquitous " " when the same old same old positions are re-stated, for like the 57th time. This discussion is great for bringing drama and flame wars on the boards, but does not proportionally translate at the same level of drama/controversy in the real world.

 

If the NOD succeeds in getting dealers to disclose (on pressing especially) then that's great. Maybe they'll all join and people will only buy from NOD certified dealers. Maybe. But I doubt it.

Yep, the press-free zone graphic has really caught on.

 

I personally feel pressing should be proactively disclosed by people like Doug and Matt, but it's not going to change my buying habits whether they're NOD certified or not.

 

You forgot this graemlin...

 

Indeed that one is often relevant and should be used frequently, but it does not provide the postive re-reinforcement the others portray when one wants to bandwagon on (yet again) to someone else's re-post!

[Scheradon]

The difference Brian, is that I've never been interested in anything other than a dialogue. I am certainly aware that there are folks that disagree with my position, (which is actually about getting more info out in the open....if someone can prove me wrong, so be it.). And I never tell them to just go away. What gets me is how certain interested parties seem to want to just squelch the whole issue and discussion. That ain't right. Or realistic.

 

I and others have simply been on a fact-finding mission for over two years. I've personally seen enough facts to convince me that there is still a seamy underside to things in the hobby, that affect all collectors and their wallets. I started out asking pretty simple, straightforward questions, and was startled at the reaction or lack of, that I received. I'd obviously hit a nerve.

 

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions. It's another to try and silence those opinions. Big difference.

 

I've been willing to discuss this stuff with anyone and anyone is free to put me on ignore....I encourage it in fact. The irony is that the folks that don't agree with my inquisitiveness have often inflamed the debate with their rhetoric and in fact kept it going.

 

I'm just going to keep asking questions. That's all. I am neither a dealer or a big time collector. Or a lawyer. What I am is very very stubborn.

 

I've said this before....two years ago, the average collector had no friggin' idea what pressing was, or that it was practiced on a wide basis. That's changed completely. I personally think there is a huge difference between a book that naturally arrived in 2006 in highgrade and one that was artificially manipulated into that condition purely for profit, with little or no regard for the longterm effects on the book (unproven at this point) and respect for the book as an example of pop culture. It becomes just grist for their mills.

 

Pressing won't be stopped. That was never a goal of mine. Or running a dealer out of business. That's silly and would be totally presumptuous. I'm satisfied with contributing to helping raise the level of awareness among buyers, and letting them make informed choices.

 

Brad

 

Nobody's trying to silence anything, just encouraging a break or a shift to something that is meaningful in the debate. You're asking not to stamp out your viewpoints -- I'm trying to say there's a lot of people tired of it. It's a public message board -- guess what, we both have a right to say what we're saying over and over and over again -- but to what end?

 

I know pressing and manipulation has been around for a long, long time -- and I have no problem with artificial manipulation in the form of pressing or the fact that it's purely for profit.

 

Frankly I think the average collector STILL doesn't know what pressing is, and they don't care. I think the average HG collector knows what pressing is, and they don't care either.

 

Come on, if no one cared, would we have all the debate, ongoing threads, scoop articles, etc, etc.? I guess it's comments like this that keep bringing me back into the fray and having to restate the fact that I am a HG collecter that cares. I consider myself part of the average HG collector's community out there, and I know I'm not alone in my position, and I/we care.

[Ze-man]

 

I personally feel pressing should be proactively disclosed by people like Doug and Matt, but it's not going to change my buying habits whether they're NOD certified or not.

 

Unless of course we find out one form of pressing(or all forms of pressing) are found to be damaging the funny books.How much research has actually been done(other then close inspection with the naked eye?)to determine what the various forms of pressing are doing to a book.I think dealers would be forced to disclose what type of pressing was done to a book, just like any other form of resto is today. But...since we cant detect it, they get a "Get out of jail free card, sent on their merrry way with pockets bulging! Heck we even pat some of them on the back.

 

Till then all we are left with is talking about it.

 

One of my goals goal no matter how futile it is , is to actually try and get some concrete profesional evidence,( no matter which side it favors) about the effects pressing has on our books. Of course I want it to be found that is has long term damage, and force those who are doing it purely for profit, and not as part of resoration to stop. But if it ends up that pressing books has no ill effects, I will say that as well. I am just tired of talking about it period, but it is not my place to decide when that talk should end. But rather redirect my energy towards an end goal.Or at least I will feel like I am trying to do something positive, if only for my own personal satisfatction.

 

Ze-

[THE_BEYONDER]

I know pressing and manipulation has been around for a long, long time -- and I have no problem with artificial manipulation in the form of pressing or the fact that it's purely for profit.

 

 

Mind-boggling

 

 

The state of preservation of a comic book has always been the fundamental factor that dictates its worth. The correlation between condition & value is direct.

 

How can the manipulation of structure not impact the future value of comics?

 

Structural condition has always been King because it represented a DEGREE OF PRESERVATION .

 

That is no longer the case.

[drbanner]

I personally feel pressing should be proactively disclosed by people like Doug and Matt, but it's not going to change my buying habits whether they're NOD certified or not.

 

Unless of course we find out one form of pressing(or all forms of pressing) are found to be damaging the funny books.How much research has actually been done(other then close inspection with the naked eye?)to determine what the various forms of pressing are doing to a book.I think dealers would be forced to disclose what type of pressing was done to a book, just like any other form of resto is today. But...since we cant detect it, they get a "Get out of jail free card, sent on their merrry way with pockets bulging! Heck we even pat some of them on the back.

 

Till then all we are left with is talking about it.

 

One of my goals goal no matter how futile it is , is to actually try and get some concrete profesional evidence,( no matter which side it favors) about the effects pressing has on our books. Of course I want it to be found that is has long term damage, and force those who are doing it purely for profit, and not as part of resoration to stop. But if it ends up that pressing books has no ill effects, I will say that as well.

 

Ze-

 

I would surely like to know that as well! I believe Matt has commented that he is not aware of pressing damaging books (or pressing coming undone) but I don't recall any comments from Susan C or Tracey Heft about it. Considering what paper goes through from the time it's a tree to the time it becomes a comic book, (extensive physical and chemical separation processes, bombardment with chlorine bleach, squeezing and pressing the resultant individual wood fibers into huge rolls) it doesn't seem another round of pressing is going to affect it all that much. Matt did clarify that the reason he would not recommend repressing a book is because there would be no benefit, assuming it was done correctly the first time, and not because a 2nd round of pressing would damage the book.

 

Practically speaking, if it takes more than "close inspection with the naked eye" to see the damage, who cares?

 

Where's that dang Press-o-Meter when you need it!?!?

[Scheradon]

Practically speaking, if it takes more than "close inspection with the naked eye" to see the damage, who cares?

 

So how do you feel about micro-trimming?

[Foolkiller]

The difference Brian, is that I've never been interested in anything other than a dialogue. I am certainly aware that there are folks that disagree with my position, (which is actually about getting more info out in the open....if someone can prove me wrong, so be it.). And I never tell them to just go away. What gets me is how certain interested parties seem to want to just squelch the whole issue and discussion. That ain't right. Or realistic.

 

I and others have simply been on a fact-finding mission for over two years. I've personally seen enough facts to convince me that there is still a seamy underside to things in the hobby, that affect all collectors and their wallets. I started out asking pretty simple, straightforward questions, and was startled at the reaction or lack of, that I received. I'd obviously hit a nerve.

 

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions. It's another to try and silence those opinions. Big difference.

 

I've been willing to discuss this stuff with anyone and anyone is free to put me on ignore....I encourage it in fact. The irony is that the folks that don't agree with my inquisitiveness have often inflamed the debate with their rhetoric and in fact kept it going.

 

I'm just going to keep asking questions. That's all. I am neither a dealer or a big time collector. Or a lawyer. What I am is very very stubborn.

 

I've said this before....two years ago, the average collector had no friggin' idea what pressing was, or that it was practiced on a wide basis. That's changed completely. I personally think there is a huge difference between a book that naturally arrived in 2006 in highgrade and one that was artificially manipulated into that condition purely for profit, with little or no regard for the longterm effects on the book (unproven at this point) and respect for the book as an example of pop culture. It becomes just grist for their mills.

 

Pressing won't be stopped. That was never a goal of mine. Or running a dealer out of business. That's silly and would be totally presumptuous. I'm satisfied with contributing to helping raise the level of awareness among buyers, and letting them make informed choices.

 

Brad

 

Nobody's trying to silence anything, just encouraging a break or a shift to something that is meaningful in the debate. You're asking not to stamp out your viewpoints -- I'm trying to say there's a lot of people tired of it. It's a public message board -- guess what, we both have a right to say what we're saying over and over and over again -- but to what end?

 

I know pressing and manipulation has been around for a long, long time -- and I have no problem with artificial manipulation in the form of pressing or the fact that it's purely for profit.

 

Frankly I think the average collector STILL doesn't know what pressing is, and they don't care. I think the average HG collector knows what pressing is, and they don't care either.

 

Come on, if no one cared, would we have all the debate, ongoing threads, scoop articles, etc, etc.? I guess it's comments like this that keep bringing me back into the fray and having to restate the fact that I am a HG collecter that cares. I consider myself part of the average HG collector's community out there, and I know I'm not alone in my position, and I/we care.

 

I never said NOBODY cared. What I'm implying is that MOST people, most high grade collectors as well, don't care.

 

As I've said many times, this is a minority viewpoint in a minority segment of the hobby -- and to me, to make the impact go further -- I'm not sure what is required other than showing that pressing does indeed harm the book in the long term.

[Red Hook]

I'd also like to see evidence that pressing doesn't damage books, from someone who isn't directly profiting from the practice, not just anecdotal input from people who have a vested interest in wanting the discussion to just "go away" and for everybody to continue operating just as they have for years.

 

There are hundreds of threads, thousands, that have nothing to do with pressing. We can't stomp our feet and expect the boards content to morph into our own personal wish list of topics. It is what it is. It reflects the current climate, for better or worse. There are huge chunks of the boards containing material that I find boring, or uninteresting or coarse, but I just don't bother to read it, and I don't complain that it's there.

 

Brian, when you said the following.....

 

Frankly I think the average collector STILL doesn't know what pressing is, and they don't care.

 

....you made my point for me (beside being a confusing, self-contradictory statement.....)

 

When the day comes that you can write that "the average collector KNOWS EXACTLY what pressing is, and is free to make an informed choice and doesn't care", then I'll stop writing about it.

 

I've never claimed to know how many "average collectors" know or don't know about pressing. I don't care about collectors like you Brian (nothing personal), because you've made up your mind based on a fairly good knowledge of what's going on.

 

I have no problem with that. But your view that there's nothing left to talk about is pretty myopic. Every day there are new people showing up on the boards, maybe reading about the issues for the very first time.

 

They may not sign up.

 

They may choose not to post.

 

But I bet more than a couple of them are getting an education on some of the things to watch out for in our perfect, blemish-free, 100% totally above board hobby. And that makes me feel great!

 

Like you said yourself, Brian....it's a public chat board. I would never expect to be able to control the content flow. If you don't like it, don't read it.

 

Brad

[THE_BEYONDER]

I never said NOBODY cared. What I'm implying is that MOST people, most high grade collectors as well, don't care.

 

 

Please stop stating your opinion as if it's fact. Unless of course....you have some kind of data that supports this belief.

[Red Hook]

No, it's purely anecdotal, as I said above.

[Scheradon]

I never said NOBODY cared. What I'm implying is that MOST people, most high grade collectors as well, don't care.

 

 

Please stop stating your opinion as if it's fact. Unless of course....you have some kind of data that supports this belief.

 

Exactly