CGC Blue Label Notes

[tth2]

And shouldn't that "certain former owner" have been punished in the value department for color touch and glue? Were certain later owners the ones that had to pay the price of the glue and pen with others getting the "wink and nod treatment". I guess if I knew at what point, glue and dots of color were blue slabbed, I'd be more willing to accept that there wasn't some favoritism in the grading process for MH books from certain owners.

By the time the books were slabbed, they had probably left Snyder's clutches long ago. So the only people that would've been punished by a decline in value would have been the owners at the time the books were slabbed, who may or may not have purchased them directly from Snyder and may or may not have known they'd been restored by Snyder.

 

I'd be curious to know whether people who purchased the books from Snyder knew that he'd touched them up.

[action1kid]

I know this topic is beatin to death so ill just get right to the point.

 

For example..

If the Mile High Action #1 is graded by CGC as a 9.2 with SLIGHT color touch[and in a blue label] It will not get 1 million dollars.

The slight color touch will effect its value regardless of label color.It will be discounted from a Completely unrestored book.This is My opinion of whats going on.

Sure the Mile High More Fun 52 got 150k a few years back[blue label slight color glue]But my point is it would have gotten alot more if 100 percent untouched.It was discounted though you may not have realized it,and thats why a famous certain collector bought it.

[FFB]

What I don't get is why, if the book started out at FN 6.0, it would be worth half as much if I put two dots of ink on the spine, but would not lose any value if I wrote the number 27 on the cover using 20 times more ink. I recognize that this is the "reality" of the marketplace. I just think it makes no logical sense. The "intent" behind why the dots of ink are on the spine is irrelevant. There's ink on the spine. And much less of it, and far less obtrusive, than the ink in the #27 in the second example.

I don't know why you think intent is irrelevant. If I accidentally lose control of my car and crash into somebody and kill them, as opposed to doing it on purpose, there's a huge difference in penalty, even though the guy is just as dead. As a society, we mete out different levels of punishment for different types of behavior, even though the result of the behavior might be identical.

 

Similarly, the collecting market metes out different levels of punishment, via different valuations, for the intent behind different types of behavior, even though in your example the color touch is no more disfiguring, and maybe even less disfiguring, than the writing. Purely logical, perhaps not. But effective in discouraging restoration? I think so.

 

That's the best answer I can give, although of course I realize you're only asking the question rhetorically to illustrate what you believe to be an unjust result.

 

Pretty poor analogy, Tim. When a book is devalued because it has two dots of ink on the spine as opposed to a big grease pencil number in the middle of the front cover, you're usually not punishing the person who put the ink there -- you're punishing the book and whoever owns it at the time. While that certainly can have the effect of discouraging restoration, it still does not make sense to me that the book is so much less valuable even though the "defect" for which it is being devalued is so much smaller and less obtrusive than the big grease pencil number for which little or no devaluation results. Restoration itself is not evil. It's the fraudulent non-disclosure of restoration that is the problem. Once restoration is disclosed, then it's still a great comic book with a couple dots of ink on it. As I said before, I don't see the logic behind cutting the value in half for that.

[FFB]

I know this topic is beatin to death so ill just get right to the point.

 

For example..

If the Mile High Action #1 is graded by CGC as a 9.2 with SLIGHT color touch[and in a blue label] It will not get 1 million dollars.

The slight color touch will effect its value regardless of label color.It will be discounted from a Completely unrestored book.This is My opinion of whats going on.

Sure the Mile High More Fun 52 got 150k a few years back[blue label slight color glue]But my point is it would have gotten alot more if 100 percent untouched.It was discounted though you may not have realized it,and thats why a famous certain collector bought it.

 

You do not know that. You're just guessing. When Steve Borock paid $115K for the More Fun #52 several years ago (before starting CGC), he did so knowing that it had the glue and said that he didn't think any less of the book because of it. As for the Church Action #1, I don't know whether it would get a million dollars or not, but I am pretty sure it would sell for more than any other comic book in the hobby, dot of color touch or not. Because there is no other book in the hobby like it, it's impossible to say one way or the other whether it would sell for more without the glue than with. I know that if I could afford the book, I wouldn't pay any less for it. I'd just look at a dot of color touch the same way I'd look at a handwritten ink mark in the center of the cover and grade the book accordingly.

[action1kid]

FFB.

Of course I dont know that,but neither do you or anyone else.[it is my opinion].

If someone tells me he would do this or that and dosnt back it up with a purchase

than its just an opinion.Borock bought that More Fun 52 a long time ago when resto had a favorible view.Times have changed as you know.He does not own the book now.This should be mentioned.Yea,its a guess but its an educated guess.

I do not believe that an imporatant book with slight color touch should be priced as the same exact book with no color touch.,and people who are ACTUALLY doing the spending[on these huge books] are looking at it that way.[in my opinion]...

My point is that what people say and what people actually do when they actually purchase, many times do no match up.

There are people on these boards who feel the same way.I am not alone.

This is NOT a law of the universe im trying to push on you.It is my opinion.

With that said I do respect yours as well.

[action1kid]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY !

[FFB]

FFB.

Of course I dont know that,but neither do you or anyone else.[it is my opinion].

If someone tells me he would do this or that and dosnt back it up with a purchase

than its just an opinion.Borock bought that More Fun 52 a long time ago when resto had a favorible view.Times have changed as you know.He does not own the book now.This should be mentioned.Yea,its a guess but its an educated guess.

I do not believe that an imporatant book with slight color touch should be priced as the same exact book with no color touch.

 

Agreed, but this is not exactly what I am saying. What I am saying is, when you have the single-greatest copy of a rare book in your hands, should it really result in a huge drop in value if you add a dot of glue to hold down a teeny tiny bindery tear? I don't think so. But if you have two copies of the same book in EXACTLY the same grade with exactly the same defects, and you apply a dot of glue or a dot of color touch to one of them to a degree that is insufficient to change the apparent grade of the book, then I agree that the book with the dot of glue or a dot of color touch should be worth somewhat less (just not a LOT less). Under these limited circumstances, I would tend to view the dot of glue or the dot of color touch as a "defect," rather than view the book as now being a "bad" restored book in a purple label. While the book is now "technically" restored, for all intents and purposes it is still an unrestored book since the apparent grade has not been improved.

 

,and people who are ACTUALLY doing the spending[on these huge books] are looking at it that way.[in my opinion]...

My point is that what people say and what people actually do when they actually purchase, many times do no match up.

There are people on these boards who feel the same way.I am not alone.

This is NOT a law of the universe im trying to push on you.It is my opinion.

With that said I do respect yours as well.

 

I agree, there are some people (not all, but some) who feel the way you do. I am just trying to point out the inherent injustice in that opinion! Don't take my impassioned discussion on the topic as my trying to shout you down, because I'm not. I enjoy our discussions.

[action1kid]

For slight work[very slight] I do not think there should be a HUGE drop in price,but i do believe a discount is due compared to its unrestored counterpart.How much discount? In there lies the true question.I personally feel it shouldnt be huge but it should be moderate.I think that a Totally unrestored 9.2 more Fun 52 should go for

250k in the open market.[outside of Superman and Batman I think this price is the plateau for other Superhero books]..I think a 9.2 with very slight color would go for 150-170k ?[if mile High only]......

Please remember the color touch/glue on the Mile High More Fun 52 is not accidental.It was intentional restoration.This was not done for conservitive reasons.

 

Not viewing our discussion as a shut down,not at all.

On the contrary your views make me think all the more.

Your opinion contrary or agreed[i prefer contrary] is always appreciated.

[action1kid]

Just for fun go to Metros sight and look up the discription of the 9.4 unrestored All Star 3 they have for sale.[it is completely unrestored]

In there discription they use its condition[completely unrestored] to knock why it is a better purchase than the Mile High 9.6 All Star # 3[which has slight color touch.

Im not using it to support my view because there simply trying to sell a book.

But in that instance they are bringing up my point of view to make a sale.

They know we are out there.

I think that a dealers view is invalidated, so I would not ask a dealer for one.[His self interests are invovled.I do however respect the pure collectors point of view

[sborock]

"If someone tells me he would do this or that and dosnt back it up with a purchase

than its just an opinion.Borock bought that More Fun 52 a long time ago when resto had a favorible view.Times have changed as you know."

 

I bought that book knowing it had a very minor amount of glue and color touch. Ask any major player that dealt with me at the time, I almost never knowingly bought restored books and always asked if a book was restored before even looking at it(Yes, I knowingly bought many pressed books, but never asked if they were pressed, just never cared.), I just could not find a decent unrestored MF 52 so I bought that the Church copy (largest cash price ever paid for a single comic book at that time ) and it is beautiful

 

"He does not own the book now.This should be mentioned.Yea,its a guess but its an educated guess."

 

I gave up that book before CGC was even thought of, but not because it had minor work. I was offered a nice chunk of change for it and I wanted to buy a different big comic book. I sold my comic collection. I do not own any vintage comics because it would be a conflict of interest. Do I miss it? Yeah, but I see great comic books all day long, it's like having the largest comic collection in the world I do however buy and read new comics, but do not collect them.

 

Just an FYI........

[action1kid]

Im flattered you read my post Steve.

Thank you for filling in the blanks........................

I know how impossible it is to find a More Fun 52 in high grade.

or any grade unrestored.

Not speaking for you of course but the view on restoration today is not the way it was viewed 6 years back.That is one of my points.I go back 10 years or so and restoration IMPROVED the value of a comicbook[which is why we have so many restored books today.That view has reversed today and has hurt those books alot,

even professionally restored books.

[action1kid]

In my opinion........

[sborock]

In my opinion........

 

Understood

[action1kid]

Slightly and moderatly] restored books lived in a [restoration friendly climate in the 1990s]..The work often improved there values. Why else would there be so many many restored books today if that were not true at one time.The restoration of comicbooks became so dominant that restored books just flooded the market.

The flooding of the market with restored books is just ONE of the reasons for there dramatic drop in value.Go to any convention at all.It seems to me that a huge amount of vintage books are restored......If huge is to strong a word it is certainly a large amount

[action1kid]

A big big reason why I would take the 9.4 UNRESTORED non-pedigree All Star # 3

over the Mile High 9.6 All Star 3[very slight glue ?] is because you have to admit views on restoration are constantly changing.Its never constant,the view is alway changing.Todays blue label may be tomorrows plod and the reversed.

Because of this instibility on the constant changing of view on restoration im afraid that buying a big big book with even slight color touch may come back some day to bite me on the A?X......

I feel secure in the fact that there is no resto of any kind on any of my books and changing circumstances can Never Hurt me.This is the dominant reason for my buying habits on big books.No resto of any kind...

[Ze-man]

" Do I miss it? Yeah, but I see great comic books all day long, it's like having the largest comic collection in the world I do however buy and read new comics, but do not collect them.

 

 

Steve, Dont forget about your Heroclix!

 

Ze-

[comicdonna]

Hi,

This has probably been discussed somewhere else (sorry -I am new here) but I was hoping to get some opinions on an issue that I am often faced with. That is, when CGC puts notes on their blue label books like "small color touch" or "glue on spine", what effect do you think it has on the book's value? I am talking about scarce Golden Age books and obviously the restoration (if you can call it that) is very, very minor or it would be in a purple label. For example, The Superman 1 Mile High is a VF 8.0 (blue label) but notes say small color touch. Do you guys care? Doesn't it hurt the value? Thanks, ER

 

A lot of the time you're talking about Edgar Church pedigree books with a dot of glue and/or a dot of color touch that wind up in blue label slabs because the dot of glue and/or dot of color touch would not have impacted the actual "pre-glue" or "pre-dot-of-color-touch" grade of the book significantly, if at all. Often, that book was already the best copy in existence before the dot of CT or glue. In that case, I look at the glue or dot of CT the same way I would a handwritten distributor code or some such. While, in a perfect world, I'd prefer it not be there, its presence doesn't take away from the fact that the book was already the best existing copy before someone unnecessarily used a dot of glue to close up a bindery tear that is usually still visible anyway, or to cover up a tiny spine stress or corner abrasion that is still visible anyway.

 

Using a specific example -- let's say that the Dentist offered the Edgar Church copy of Action Comics #1 for sale tomorrow. Let's also say that I could afford to buy it. Let's also say that as he puts it up for sale, he takes a dab of glue and puts it on a tiny, 1/32 inch bindery tear (that you could barely see in the first place) to hold it down. Is the book now less valuable? Not to me. It was the best existing copy of Action Comics #1 before he added the tiny dab of glue, and it still is. It just has a tiny dab of glue now.

 

If you're talking about the best copy in existence of a rare book, a tiny amount of glue or CT wouldn't affect the amount of money I'd pay.

 

I am sure not everyone feels this way, but I would think that most people would pay more attention to the fact that it's the Church copy of Action Comics #1 than to the fact that someone put an unnecessary dab of glue there (whether now or 25 years ago).

I understand what you are saying Scott but, I believe that if the glue was used to seal a tear, it should not be in a blue label. as you may remember, I had two books that both had glue on them. The first was a blue label Action Comics #29 4.0 with a small amount of dried glue on the cover. I sold the book for $615 last year. The glue didn't seem to affect the sale. The second book was Action Comics #27 6.5 purple label Slight A with a small amount of glue on the spine. It was a great looking book, and only sold for $555 leaving me with a big loss. I personally would not mind having a tiny amount of glue on a book, as long as it was not used to restore the book. As far as color touch, no matter how slight, the book should not recieve a blue label.

 

Mike

 

I'll begin by stating that I don't understand your post. Why would glue be on a book in the first place if not to hold shut a tear?

 

 

I was never able to spot the glue on the blue label book, but I would asume, that someone spilled some glue on the cover, and it was not done for restoration purposes. You have to remember, that back in the early days, when these comics came out on the stands, it was kids buying them to read and play with, not like nowdays when us grown-ups are collecting comics.

 

Personally, I don't think the purple label should exist. I think that books should all have the same color label -- and that restored books should be clearly marked as such, with all restoration being noted on the label in an inconspicuous manner.

 

That's what I was thinking, when the #27 came back, but thats life.

 

 

 

Let's say you have an expensive book, say a FN copy of Detective #27 unrestored with several spine stresses, and in a moment of drunken revelry you make a 1/16th inch ink pen dot on two of the spine stresses. Should that book now sell for 1/2 the price? No, but it will. Because it'll be in a purple label holder.

 

Now assume you've got the same book, a FN copy of Detective #27, and instead of putting a tiny ink pen dot on one of the spine stresses, you write the number "27" on the cover. What happens to the value of the book? Virtually nothing, because it's in a blue label holder and will probably sport the same grade.

 

Someone explain the logic behind this to me.

 

I think, in time, collectors will learn to look at restored books, that have very minor restoration, and break this gap of a book that is currently worth half as you are stating above, and be willing to pay closer to the actual value.

 

I will bet you money that if CGC had it to do all over again, there would not be a separate color label for restored books. There would be one color label for both restored and unrestored, and that restored books would have the restoration noted conspicuously on the label with a grade such as 9.0R for a VF/NM 9.0 restored book, with a separate restoration score along the lines of what Matt Nelson suggests in his article in the Overstreet grading guide. Slight (P), Extensive (A), etc. are too ambiguous.

I doubt it, or they would have already made the change.

[comicdonna]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY !

Is today your birthday?

[action1kid]

QUOTE;

Now assume you've got the same book, a FN copy of Detective #27, and instead of putting a tiny ink pen dot on one of the spine stresses, you write the number "27" on the cover. What happens to the value of the book? Virtually nothing, because it's in a blue label holder and will probably sport the same grade.

 

 

That is true.....This is what happened with the 6.5 Action #1 Sale recently.

It has [25] written on the front cover. It sold for 240k I am told.

Cant argue with that point.There are no notes on the book either.

Well, if you want to argue it,the 25 wasnt put there to improve the appearence of the book[like color touch or glue] It was put there to sell the book as a markup from 10 cents[way back when]

[action1kid]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY !

Is today your birthday?

 

I was wishing FFB a happy birthday.

But ill tuck it away for Feburary. Thanks!