NY Mag: Why the Art Market Can't Crash (And why it will anyway)

[pinupcartoonguy]

has there been a correction, contraction and crash in the OA comic market?

 

Pogo by Walt Kelly comes quickly to mind.

[comicartfan]

The funny thing is.... you are the mirror image of KK.

 

Think about that before you post....

... or maybe you do.

 

If I didn't know that both of you were distinct individuals I would swear that you were an evil personality living inside his mind. Or Vice Verse depending on point of view....

 

... maybe that's why you glommed onto him so feverishly. Sometimes looking into the mirror can be painful...

 

Dan,

I really don't know why you waste your energy to argue with Gene. He's been singing the same song over and over and over and over and over and over to ad nauseum. This was the same soapbox speech that we used to hear when he collected comics that he's only switched over to the original art market. And if he switched over to coins, he'd be playing this tune for them.

I find it's just better to avoid reading his posts. It's not going to change.

 

 

and Gene,

I really don't get what it is you're trying to accomplish. We've been listening to your theory about crashes and the Armageddon that you keep predicting from your version of Revelations from the King Park Version of the Comic Market Bible. While we've had to endure countless posts regarding your credentials and how you KNOW for certain the end of the bull market that we are currently in, I still wonder what's your motive.

Would it make you happy or feel satisfied if we all just threw our hands up and say " Well, Gene was right all along" !! - I am going to cash my books/comics/magic beans in and put my money elsewhere and forget about this whole fiasco. " ?

[delekkerste]

I don't know what reality you are living in. Of my 4,600+ posts, how many of them talk about my "credentials" or talk about market crashes, Armageddon, or that "same song over and over"? Furthermore, you claim that the song I'm singing is not going to change, but haven't a lot of people finally changed their tune about the CGC market and will freely acknowledge these days that various sectors of the market have indeed been topping out over the past few years (much in the manner that I described)? Well, not that I expect someone who has been nothing but ungracious to me on this Board to give credit where credit is due. Clearly you're way vested into comic art now, much as you were with CGC books, and you've got an axe to grind with me; you've shown that you're not above letting facts get in the way of a good round of Gene-bashing.

 

As for what I'm trying to accomplish, the facts are that I'm not "trying" very hard to do anything considering I post about 20x more about soccer in the Water Cooler than about original art, and only a small sub-section of those OA posts have to do with anything market-related. Furthermore, almost all of those posts are a reaction to the outlandish posts/threads by the likes of KrazyKat and his shills. Unlike KrazyKat (where 95+% of his posts are either about pumping OA and/or bashing CGC comics), I am not actively pursuing any agenda, only providing an occasional balance to the usual circle jerk that goes on here. Funny how the only ones that seem to be complaining about my posts are people like you and Forman who are so emotionally vested in OA that the slightest break with the party line sends you guys into such a tizzy that you can't help but make personal attacks against me.

 

By the way, I particularly enjoyed your post earlier this year where you asked aloud what kind of agenda certain people (gee, I wonder who) must have that they would spend thousands of dollars on OA and yet not think prices are going to continue to go up. I didn't respond to you then, but I will now. If you're only spending discretionary income you can afford to lose, buying high-priced art you like is just another purchase to be enjoyed and not an investment. All my purchases are discretionary. I have always paid cash, in full, and never used credit or gone on time payments. I don't worry about the money I put into my collection because I just plan to enjoy it indefinitely and have no plans to ever monetize it. There is no agenda and no contradiction going on here.

[tth2]

Sal Buscema Cap A panel pages, $50 tops 10 years ago, x10-x15 today (when available as noted by Dan F.) Etc. etc.

Wow, I can't believe pages by Sal Buscema go for so much!

 

Definitely very convincing evidence that nostalgia, and not artistic or aesthetic appreciation, is what drives the comic OA market.

[comicartfan]

First of all, your so called Gene bashing isn't what's going on here. You clearly have an opinion and clearly feel the need to go over it and over it. And I am clearly within my right to comment on it. WHERE IN MY POST IS IT PERSONAL ? I am attacking your point of view, just like anyone else I would strongly disagree with their opinion. As far as "giving you credit where credit is due", you'll have to look elsewhere for that. I am not here to pat you on the shoulder and say " man, you did good". I have not been a fan, but I don't think I've been ungracious. I've never name called nor have I gotten involved in the battles between you and KK or others. I feel that you say one thing, yet do another. There are far more negative things that come from your posts than postive. Maybe you're just a pestimistic person, I don't know. I'm guessing. But I'm not the only one that has pointed it out on here. (not counting KK)

 

 

I didn't say, " Gee , who spends thousands of dollars on art only to think it's not going to go up" ? - WHAT I SAID was, " Gee, who spends thousands only to think that the market is going to plummet.(crash/burn/go down the toilet).....There seems to be something condradicting in these actions. While I can say whatever I want, it's my actions that are going to speak and I think these speak to me in a certain way. Hey, you're free, as is everyone else, to think what you want and spend or not spend as you see fit.

 

I was mearly voicing my bewilderment as to why would someone constantly try and point out negative things about a hobby that they are active in. I think you underestimate how often you have posted regarding this very subject. Or maybe I am overestimating it. By any accounts, sure, I am very emotionally involved in the hobby. I love the hobby, I advocate for it and I make no apolgies for it. I have a stressful , intense job and this is an outlet for me. I tend to have a touch of OCD when it comes to things that I am interested it, I will admit that fact. So yes, because I keep talking about the hobby, spending time learning and meeting dealers/collectors and spending money, then I have an agenda. People that talk about something over and over usually have one. So for you to say there is none, I don't believe it. What is it you're trying to prove ? This is the same things you said about comics and I am sure if you were involved in any collecting venture, you would mearly change a few words and deliver the same speech.

 

While I don't think I am going to take my art collection and retire to the south of France, I do think it will be worth a fair amount by the time that I am done collecting. Hopefully it will be more than I paid, maybe not.

 

You know, there are those of us who are similair to you. We take what we can afford and buy those items. Whether it be time payments, trades or a combo. I do agree with your point of not buying on credit cards.While I am sure there are a few collectors who may go a little past what they can comfortably afford, most of us know our limits.

[westform]

There is little I can add to your posts; I feel exactly the same way. And, you have more eloquently than I summed it up for me. Dan F.

 

First of all, your so called Gene bashing isn't what's going on here. You clearly have an opinion and clearly feel the need to go over it and over it. And I am clearly within my right to comment on it. WHERE IN MY POST IS IT PERSONAL ? I am attacking your point of view, just like anyone else I would strongly disagree with their opinion. As far as "giving you credit where credit is due", you'll have to look elsewhere for that. I am not here to pat you on the shoulder and say " man, you did good". I have not been a fan, but I don't think I've been ungracious. I've never name called nor have I gotten involved in the battles between you and KK or others. I feel that you say one thing, yet do another. There are far more negative things that come from your posts than postive. Maybe you're just a pestimistic person, I don't know. I'm guessing. But I'm not the only one that has pointed it out on here. (not counting KK)

 

 

I didn't say, " Gee , who spends thousands of dollars on art only to think it's not going to go up" ? - WHAT I SAID was, " Gee, who spends thousands only to think that the market is going to plummet.(crash/burn/go down the toilet).....There seems to be something condradicting in these actions. While I can say whatever I want, it's my actions that are going to speak and I think these speak to me in a certain way. Hey, you're free, as is everyone else, to think what you want and spend or not spend as you see fit.

 

I was mearly voicing my bewilderment as to why would someone constantly try and point out negative things about a hobby that they are active in. I think you underestimate how often you have posted regarding this very subject. Or maybe I am overestimating it. By any accounts, sure, I am very emotionally involved in the hobby. I love the hobby, I advocate for it and I make no apolgies for it. I have a stressful , intense job and this is an outlet for me. I tend to have a touch of OCD when it comes to things that I am interested it, I will admit that fact. So yes, because I keep talking about the hobby, spending time learning and meeting dealers/collectors and spending money, then I have an agenda. People that talk about something over and over usually have one. So for you to say there is none, I don't believe it. What is it you're trying to prove ? This is the same things you said about comics and I am sure if you were involved in any collecting venture, you would mearly change a few words and deliver the same speech.

 

While I don't think I am going to take my art collection and retire to the south of France, I do think it will be worth a fair amount by the time that I am done collecting. Hopefully it will be more than I paid, maybe not.

 

You know, there are those of us who are similair to you. We take what we can afford and buy those items. Whether it be time payments, trades or a combo. I do agree with your point of not buying on credit cards.While I am sure there are a few collectors who may go a little past what they can comfortably afford, most of us know our limits.

[westform]

Sal Buscema Cap A panel pages, $50 tops 10 years ago, x10-x15 today (when available as noted by Dan F.) Etc. etc.

Wow, I can't believe pages by Sal Buscema go for so much!

 

Definitely very convincing evidence that nostalgia, and not artistic or aesthetic appreciation, is what drives the comic OA market.

 

OUCH! That hurts!!

 

...seriously though, I've always loved Sal's art... but then again I am brainwashed by years and years of nostalgic gratitude to him for drawing many of my favorite titles and favorite storylines within those titles....

 

p.s.... If you have pages from Defenders 9 or 10 I will gladly pay that and much more !!!

[comicartfan]

Thanks for the kudos Dan....

 

And I agree with you about Buscema. I love his Hulk ! In fact, for those that grew up in the 70s-early 80s, that is what we know to be THE Hulk...I scratch my head everytime someone pans his style. While I'll admit he's not the artist that a Steranko or Adams or Keown, he does have a following. I just bought a Hulk splash from 231 (managed to grab it before Eelco ) and while I won't be building a Sal Buscema collection, it' s the one nice example that I've been looking for....

[delekkerste]

First of all, your so called Gene bashing isn't what's going on here. You clearly have an opinion and clearly feel the need to go over it and over it. And I am clearly within my right to comment on it. WHERE IN MY POST IS IT PERSONAL ?

 

Where is it personal? Well, how else am I supposed to take your claims that I am negative, pessimistic, arrogant (nice crack about the "King Park version of the Comic Market Bible") and hypocritical with a hidden agenda ("saying one thing and doing another")? Not exactly gracious, I must say. As for the "negativity", if I disagree that comic art is going up, up and away, that's negative and pessimistic? Or is your definition of a pessimist anyone who breaks from the circle jerk and disagrees with you and Forman?

 

 

WHAT I SAID was, " Gee, who spends thousands only to think that the market is going to plummet.(crash/burn/go down the toilet).....There seems to be something condradicting in these actions.

 

First, where I have I said that I think this market is going to plummet, crash, burn, go down the toilet? You clearly have pre-conceived notions of me and my views that clouds how you read my posts. If I say that I think comic art is overvalued or that it's not going to keep going up at 20% a year, that doesn't mean that I think prices are going to be 75% lower next year. You are assuming way too much.

 

Second, regarding the spending, maybe you think there's a contradiction because you're thinking in terms of your own spending and financial situation, which might not be applicable to everyone else.

 

 

I was mearly voicing my bewilderment as to why would someone constantly try and point out negative things about a hobby that they are active in.

 

So, I should just drink the Kool-Aid and ignore what I see and hear? Heck, I've even heard dealers talking about *you* (and Forman, by the way) behind your back. If you think this hobby is all about being buddy-buddy and singing Kum-ba-ya around a campfire, you are seriously mistaken.

 

 

I think you underestimate how often you have posted regarding this very subject. Or maybe I am overestimating it.

 

It's clearly the latter. You are so emotionally/financially vested in this hobby that whatever I write strikes a nerve with you and you remember it, even if those posts make up a small fraction of my total post count.

 

 

People that talk about something over and over usually have one. So for you to say there is none, I don't believe it. What is it you're trying to prove ? This is the same things you said about comics and I am sure if you were involved in any collecting venture, you would mearly change a few words and deliver the same speech.

 

Again, don't put me in your shoes. I'm not trying to "prove" anything and there is certainly no financial agenda here.

 

 

You know, there are those of us who are similair to you. We take what we can afford and buy those items. Whether it be time payments, trades or a combo. I do agree with your point of not buying on credit cards.While I am sure there are a few collectors who may go a little past what they can comfortably afford, most of us know our limits.

 

Anyone who relies on time payments, credit or other such mechanisms is not talking about a "similar" level of affordability to what I am talking about.

[delekkerste]

Corrections/crashes will occur, bubbles burst. Or you can disagree.

 

Sounds pretty sensible to me, Michael. However, be warned that you have now been added to Dan Forman and Mike Shuley's "Axis of Evil".

[tth2]

Sal Buscema Cap A panel pages, $50 tops 10 years ago, x10-x15 today (when available as noted by Dan F.) Etc. etc.

Wow, I can't believe pages by Sal Buscema go for so much!

 

Definitely very convincing evidence that nostalgia, and not artistic or aesthetic appreciation, is what drives the comic OA market.

 

OUCH! That hurts!!

 

...seriously though, I've always loved Sal's art... but then again I am brainwashed by years and years of nostalgic gratitude to him for drawing many of my favorite titles and favorite storylines within those titles....

 

p.s.... If you have pages from Defenders 9 or 10 I will gladly pay that and much more !!!

I guess we`re all about the same age, because Sal Buscema was the artist on a lot of my mid-70s favorite titles growing up as well.

[delekkerste]

I guess we`re all about the same age, because Sal Buscema was the artist on a lot of my mid-70s favorite titles growing up as well.

 

Geezer.

[comicartfan]

[qoute]you have more eloquently than I summed it up for me[/qoute]

 

This is the part of Dan's post that I was thanking him for. Regardless of whether he agreed or not. He felt I said it well. You know, I've admired lots of posts that were well thought out, well written, intellegent.....and I agreed with less than 10% of what was being said. Don't make assumptions, which you are quick to accuse me of doing.

 

First, where I have I said that I think this market is going to plummet, crash, burn, go down the toilet?

When I have time, I will find these examples. But if memory serves me right, I seem to remember a quote that you had along as your tag line regarding flushing money down the toilet....seems you were quoting a collector/dealer.

 

Or is your definition of a pessimist anyone who breaks from the circle jerk and disagrees with you and Forman

It's not about someone not seeing things the way that I do. I am not that naive to think the world should look at things the way that I do. Nor would I want them to...There are lots of people that disagree with me, doesn't mean they are on the "Axis of Evil"....it just means they disagree.

 

you're thinking in terms of your own spending and financial situation, which might not be applicable to everyone else.

Right back at you.

 

Heck, I've even heard dealers talking about *you* (and Forman, by the way) behind your back. If you think this hobby is all about being buddy-buddy and singing Kum-ba-ya around a campfire, you are seriously mistaken.

 

I never said it was. I never said anthing even remotely to this statment. And I am interested in this statement about dealers bad mouthing me behind my back. Considering I've only dealt with Albert Moy twice , once on Ebay and I've dealt with Burkey most of the time. A couple of transactions with Bechara (which if it was him, I would be bothered since I have defended him publicly several time) I haven't bought a comic from a dealer in over 2 yrs. I've always paid for items that I have reserved with a dealer and being that everything has run smoothIy, I really don't get this statement. This is just your way of attacking me and my character. Bringing up third person information and saying : "Well, this guy says Shuley is a xyz or whatever. First of all, make sure you have the right Shuley. People mix up my brother and I all the time and while he may not care what the general opinion is of him, I do. His battles with Metro and Vinnie and anyone else aren't my battles.

I would really be reluctant to give this any merit. Add the fact that why would my name even come up ? - I don't go to con and bring your name up. In fact, I don't discuss you with people we mutally know. I never give you a second thought. So if you are going to bring other people's trashing of me into a discussion that you and I are having, feel free to share details....I would like to know specifics, since you brought it up.

 

And while we're at it, it's not a matter of " someone doesn't agree with me, so there is a war between us"....This is more of a "people are living in a fantasy world if they think this stuff is going to be valuable" mentality that runs into your threads. True, you may not post as often as you have in the past, but the material is all the same. Nothing new, nothing to see people...move along.....

[comicartfan]

You are so emotionally/financially vested in this hobby

 

I am really wondering about this one too. So you have an accurate snaphot into my financial picture. You know what I spend vs. what I earn vs. my projected increase of my collection's value based on a set date, at which I will then liqudate my art at a "huge profit"....You really must be some kind of super hero due to the fact that you have all this knowledge of me and my financial situtation.

[westform]

You are so emotionally/financially vested in this hobby

 

I am really wondering about this one too. So you have an accurate snaphot into my financial picture. You know what I spend vs. what I earn vs. my projected increase of my collection's value based on a set date, at which I will then liqudate my art at a "huge profit"....You really must be some kind of super hero due to the fact that you have all this knowledge of me and my financial situtation.

 

Agreed; moreover..... if you are not emotionally vested in this hobby- GET OUT!!

This is art, not stocks. I'm proud to be emotionally and yes financially vested in this hobby. How can one not be and call oneself a collector.? What the H*** is your point with this line of reasoning.? Wait I'm sorry I asked. I don't care.

 

As for the rest of Deli's comments they just read more troll-like or at least an attempt at baiting than anything else. I'll stand behind my statement that Deli seems to be the mirror image of KK.... just oh so negative. Don't let it rile you Michael, it's really more bizarre than anything else. I'm starting to feel sorry for him. EEeech! Dan F.

[delekkerste]

There is obviously no upside for me to continue this "discussion" here with you two. It suffices to say that anyone whose opinion actually matters to me knows that I don't have any hidden agendas, that I practice what I preach, that I don't make up stories to troll people, that I'm passionate about the hobby (emotionally vested, but not to the point where my reasoning is impaired) and that I am more than capable of making some educated guesses based on incomplete information (no "super hero" abilities required).

 

Any further comments you can direct to me via PM.

 

Gene

[Timulty]

Perhaps a new equation is needed here:

 

Comic OA Collecting <>Investing

 

I don't think you can go wrong with that!

[clickhere-migration]

"So, I should just drink the Kool-Aid and ignore what I see and hear? Heck, I've even heard dealers talking about *you* (and Forman, by the way) behind your back. If you think this hobby is all about being buddy-buddy and singing Kum-ba-ya around a campfire, you are seriously mistaken."

 

 

 

Hey "delekkerste" - Whatever dude. Shut up already - Welcome back to Middle School buddy, as that was the last time I heard such an idiotic statment as that.

 

WHATEVER credibility you had, which IMHO was not very much, just got flushed down the ol crapper with a retarded statement like that.

 

I have ever yet to do it around here, but you are definitely "block worthy".

 

HAHA, go AXIS of good Mike & Dan! ! BWAHAHAHAHA!

 

Art is good. Buy, enjoy, wrap yourself in it when you die.

[delekkerste]

 

That's rich, coming from you. Let's hope Arch gets around to banning your remaining shills soon, KK.

[clickhere-migration]

Good afternoon all.

 

In regards to this KK shill nonsense, well Arch can look into it, email, ip (fixed I might add, very easy to identify as not being a KK) all he wants - additionally

 

The opinions of "clickhere" expressed herein do not state or reflect those of "KK" and are are his own opinions. "clickhere" makes no warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, or process expressed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights.

 

Wish all you want "delio", but no KK here, not that easy for you.

 

And I love how you us that as an excuse to avoid the fact that YOU are the one throwing out crappy statements like the one above. Are you skipping class and smoking in the bathroom while you came up with that?

 

I don't post much, but I do find the enough time to read all the OA post. And yes, you are like listening to a broken record.

 

Personally I hope that OA prices stay flat, so I can keep buying and enjoying, and maybe I was wrong to say my art should be buried with me, because I plan on being cremated when I die.

 

Peace & Love All, well almost all!