Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[BLBcomics-migration]

PLEASE READ THIS AND MAKE COMMENTS ON WHAT YOU THINK:

 

[snip]

 

 

I read this with amazement the first time you posted it early in this thread, but we were talking about other things at the time and I didn't get a chance to comment on it. It really is like a parallel universe isn't it. And with August Derleth involved, no less! It's shame he never finished his book on comics; what a read that would be. I wonder if any drafts survive in his papers.

 

Gershon Legman's wealth of knowledge is amazing and it does sound like he's speaking from firsthand experience when he's discussing many of those books. (Actually he sounds a lot like you! ) I wonder if his collection survives intact somewhere. One point that he makes, about Ancient Egyptian illustrated narrative is not entirely correct. Cartouches were not word balloons, they were used to designate royal (and only royal) names, similar to how pronouns referring to God or Jesus are capitalized in Christian writings. The Egyptians did, however, often place text representing dialogue close to a figure's head, like word balloons without the balloons. The text and illustrations were often completely integrated in Egyptian writing, both parts being necessary to complete the whole, and they did often have sequential graphic narratives. I mentioned the Book of the Dead as an example earlier in this thread, because it is one the best examples of this and because it isn't an inscription carved on a wall, but an actual book written on paper (albeit in the form of a scroll rather than a codex). It is much closer to a more modern comic strip than you would think, though it's purpose is religious rather than entertaiment (but then so is Illustrated Stories from the Bible).

 

 

The last letter from P.E.R. completes the parallel universe feel by repeating the standard Wildenberg genesis. If not for the dates this exchange of letters really could be easily mistaken for a modern forum thread just like this one. Amazing stuff!

 

I wonder how many others who have posted here (as well as the lurkers) have read Legman's letter from 1846. See, while Sheridan (COMICS AND THEIR CREATORS 1942) and Waugh (THE COMICS 1947) were paying homage to newspaper comic strips, others, besides Legman such as Lehmann-Haupt in ILLUSTRATOR'S OF CHILDREN"S BOOKS (1947) as well as Shipton from the NY Antiquarian Society in earlier AN &Q letters from 1945 and Gombrich in the 1950s with his series of lectures at the Smithsonian in Wash DC which were later collected in ART AND ILLUSION (1960), were tracing the comic strip outside the narrow word balloon restriction.

 

It is quite obvious Legman had a huge collection of the early comic strip books. One can feel he had a stack of them at his type writer, going thru, making comments from his collection.

 

I read in the newspapers that Legman died just a couple years ago in his mid 90s in the Riviera section of southern France. I had assumed he had passed on decades ago. I would have been over to pay him a visit in a heart beat. No mention anywhere that his collection was put up for sale after his death.

 

Like when Denis Gifford passed on in the UK, his stuff went thru a number of auctions

 

August Derleth's collection has been housed at the Wisconsin Historical Society in Madison at the University there. The curators indexed his SF stuff, being the publisher of Arkham House and a prolific writer in his own right, but when i was there maybe 5 years ago to do some research, the comics section of his holdings still had not been cataloged. I had to wade thru box after box of pottage (as in stuff i already knew about) gleaning and prospecting for nuggets, of which i found more than a few at the time. i spent a couple days there going thru boxes from when they opened till they closed, and still did not get thru more than a piece of the comics holdings. I am sure it is still not dealt with properly to this day.

 

Please keep in mind Derleth has been dead for some 35 years now - and his stuff has been there about as long, so it isn't like they haven't had time to get to it - they simply do not care.

[esquirecomics]

Hi Mark

 

You did not mention it was an Paris Aubert edition

 

- this would be earlier than the 1860s, as Aubert editions get closer to when Töpffer's originals were published. I do not make any sort of claim to being an expert in Euro comics editions

 

- i know a lot about them, but not like i have grown to learn USA comic books.

 

I asked you about red hard cover, this is not exactly the red of the 1860s reprint HCs which Töpffer's son published

 

- this is more a question to go to the Euro listers on my Plat list to ascertain exactly what this is

 

- but my money is on it being pre 1860s being an Aubert, according to the scan i read.

 

It was from an Aubert edition of Veiux Bois that Tilt & Bogue made the first English translation which became Obadiah Oldbuck in 18141, with those printing blocks going to America to become the Bro Jonathan EXtra #9 1842 edition.

 

Like I told you on the phone, i was buying my French mid 1800s hard covers in Paris antiquarian book stores circa 2000-2001 for $100 to $150 a pop, buying two of each over time - six years later what you paid is decent

 

bob beerbohm

 

Cool. Sounds good to me Bob.

 

Perhaps I purchased the only known copy to exist or the one in the best condition and it is worth at least $20,000!!

[selegue]

Hi Mark

 

You did not mention it was an Paris Aubert edition .....

 

Cool. Sounds good to me Bob.

 

Perhaps I purchased the only known copy to exist or the one in the best condition and it is worth at least $20,000!!

 

It only takes one buyer -- and he's "listening"

 

JPS

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Here is an example of what i meant by "red" cover on the 1860s reprint series published by Töpffer's son and they all appear to be uniform with this red cover

 

- what you have is earlier. How much earlier, I do not yet know. Maybe i can look at it in a couple weeks?

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Some people have asked me what would be good to read to learn about earlier comics material.

FORGING A NEW MEDIUM (1998) would be a good place to start

- i heard a 2nd printing is now available, over on Amazon

 

FORGING was the basis by which i felt motivated to create the Plat list now on yahoogroups.com

 

 

ILLUSTRATORS OF CHILDREN'S LITERATURE (1947) came out the same year as Coulton Waugh's THE COMICS. The one pictured here is another good book with its chapter on the origins of the comic strip and books by Hellmut Lehmann-Haupt i have quoted from on this thread.

 

In previous Overstreet price guides, to fill up space in earlier Victorian and Platinum prince indexes, i used to list SUGGESTED READING at the end of the listings as space permitted

 

- as the listings grew and space grew tighter, i had to cut those lists down, and then out to make more room for newly discovered treasures. Look in those earlier Overstreets for a wealth of reference books which have discussed early comic books. If i get some time i will cut & paste those lists here. and what go listed there is just the tip of the ice berg of what i have researched

[esquirecomics]

 

Here is an example of what i meant by "red" cover on the 1860s reprint series published by Töpffer's son and they all appear to be uniform with this red cover

 

- what you have is earlier. How much earlier, I do not yet know. Maybe i can look at it in a couple weeks?

 

Absolutely Bob. I'll bring it with me to Baltimore for you to inspect.

[showcase4]

So which one of you is going to purchase the complete 2nd printing OO on ebay in the next 10 hours or so?

 

Now that Mr. B has retracted his statement about it being incomplete?

 

It should be very appealing at it's currently levels. $675??

 

Collin,

this book ended up selling for $760...buyer is not anyone I know. I think the seller did really well, and the buyer got a book he really wanted, so everyone did OK.

[BLBcomics-migration]

dec55 is a regular bidder on Vict and Plat stuff on eBay - he regularly snipes there

[showcase4]

is there anything or anyone you don't know?

[BLBcomics-migration]

yes, i am not an expert in European or Asian comics, though i know a lot about them

 

When it comes to American comics, there is just about

nothing i do not know, as this is what id do -

 

Eventually, due to the Overstreet listings I compile, nearly every collector of Victorian and Plat gets ahold of me

[ShoNuff-migration]

When it comes to American comics, there is just about nothing i do not know...

...and will not charge.

[Shield]

So, the Ebay Auction just ended for Obadiah.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Does the ending price of $760 shock anyone? Someone mentioned this isn't from 1842, right, but a couple of decades later?

[showcase4]

So, the Ebay Auction just ended for Obadiah.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Does the ending price of $760 shock anyone? Someone mentioned this isn't from 1842, right, but a couple of decades later?

 

Shield,

the price is exactly what I expected...no shock for me. This book is a reprint from 1849. Although it is rare, the fact that it's a reprint and coverless was a combo that really kept the price low relative to a 1st printing from 1842 that is complete.

 

most modern comic books did not have multiple printings, so it may be hard to imagine how much that makes a huge, huge value difference. Let's say Detective 27 was still printed in 1939, but then DC reprinted it off and on with some format changes and content deletions/changes for the next 60 years....that is exactly what happened with Obadiah Oldbuck. If that were the case with Detective 27, just think how much demand and value difference there would be for the 1st printing from 1939, vs. the later years reprints.

 

Then further imagine the pricing difference between a 100% complete 1st printing of Detective 27 from 1939 vs. a coverless reprint from 1946. You would have witth this Tec 27 scenerio a good idea of why this auction made a lot of sense for how it turned out, and why there is such a huge pricing difference between the 1st printing sales of Oldbuck that occurred last year, and the $760 realized in this weeks Ebay auction. ( in my opinion...I welcome yours )

[selegue]

So, the Ebay Auction just ended for Obadiah.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Does the ending price of $760 shock anyone? Someone mentioned this isn't from 1842, right, but a couple of decades later?

 

Shield,

the price is exactly what I expected...no shock for me. This book is a reprint from 1849. Although it is rare, the fact that it's a reprint and coverless was a combo that really kept the price low relative to a 1st printing from 1842 that is complete.

 

This copy's not coverless, is it? It looks like a brown cover in photo 2, and the seller describes the printing on the cover. Are you mixing up two auctions?

 

Is the interior color likely done by hand by the printer? The title page looks pretty professional (not much of a photo) but the red on later pages looks like an owner may have applied it.

 

 

most modern comic books did not have multiple printings, so it may be hard to imagine how much that makes a huge, huge value difference. Let's say Detective 27 was still printed in 1939, but then DC reprinted it off and on with some format changes and content deletions/changes for the next 60 years....that is exactly what happened with Obadiah Oldbuck. If that were the case with Detective 27, just think how much demand and value difference there would be for the 1st printing from 1939, vs. the later years reprints.

 

 

Eh?? Detective Comics 27 has probably been reprinted dozens of times. Millennium Edition, Famous First Edition/Limited Collectors Edition, various promos, hardbound Archives, foreign editions.... probably more times than Obadiah.

 

Then further imagine the pricing difference between a 100% complete 1st printing of Detective 27 from 1939 vs. a coverless reprint from 1946. You would have witth this Tec 27 scenerio a good idea of why this auction made a lot of sense for how it turned out, and why there is such a huge pricing difference between the 1st printing sales of Oldbuck that occurred last year, and the $760 realized in this weeks Ebay auction. ( in my opinion...I welcome yours )

 

Nothing to imagine. Most of the 'Tec 27 reprints are hardly worth the paper they're printed on -- probable exception for the Famous First Edition in high grade.

 

Jack

[showcase4]

So, the Ebay Auction just ended for Obadiah.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Does the ending price of $760 shock anyone? Someone mentioned this isn't from 1842, right, but a couple of decades later?

 

Shield,

the price is exactly what I expected...no shock for me. This book is a reprint from 1849. Although it is rare, the fact that it's a reprint and coverless was a combo that really kept the price low relative to a 1st printing from 1842 that is complete.

 

This copy's not coverless, is it? It looks like a brown cover in photo 2, and the seller describes the printing on the cover. Are you mixing up two auctions?

 

Is the interior color likely done by hand by the printer? The title page looks pretty professional (not much of a photo) but the red on later pages looks like an owner may have applied it.

 

 

most modern comic books did not have multiple printings, so it may be hard to imagine how much that makes a huge, huge value difference. Let's say Detective 27 was still printed in 1939, but then DC reprinted it off and on with some format changes and content deletions/changes for the next 60 years....that is exactly what happened with Obadiah Oldbuck. If that were the case with Detective 27, just think how much demand and value difference there would be for the 1st printing from 1939, vs. the later years reprints.

 

 

Eh?? Detective Comics 27 has probably been reprinted dozens of times. Millennium Edition, Famous First Edition/Limited Collectors Edition, various promos, hardbound Archives, foreign editions.... probably more times than Obadiah.

 

Then further imagine the pricing difference between a 100% complete 1st printing of Detective 27 from 1939 vs. a coverless reprint from 1946. You would have witth this Tec 27 scenerio a good idea of why this auction made a lot of sense for how it turned out, and why there is such a huge pricing difference between the 1st printing sales of Oldbuck that occurred last year, and the $760 realized in this weeks Ebay auction. ( in my opinion...I welcome yours )

 

Nothing to imagine. Most of the 'Tec 27 reprints are hardly worth the paper they're printed on -- probable exception for the Famous First Edition in high grade.

 

Jack

 

taking me to task, eh Jack? OK...let me clarify:

 

1. the Obadiah is coverless...the brown exterior is the binding,,,,the cover would have looked like the title page, but printed on light green paper...the same paper that you see at the end of the book....so yes, this book is coverless. (confirmed by Beerbohm and addressed about 2 or 3 pages earlier in this thread)

 

2.I don't know if the color was hand colored by the printer or a one time owner. It was common to have certain books offered with a hand colored variation back in the day.

 

3. I did not say that Detective 27 was not reprinted....I said that MOST modern comic books were not reprinted...and I said that because it is true. I used Tec 27 as an example of being reprinted for a 60 year time frame for it to match the reprint history of Obadiah. I am aware of the multiple Tec 27 reprints you are referencing.

 

feel better about the accuracy of my post now?

[Shield]

Showcase, I guess what I meant was the seller advertised this as the original from 1842. "I HAVE READ THAT OVERSTREET STATES THAT THESE ARE THE FIRST AMERICAN COMIC AND THEY STATE THAT IT DATES FROM 1842."

 

and it still only sold for far less than $1000. How do you bridge the gap between these sales results and your $20k copies? The Detective #27 is a poor analogy as I've never seen any of the reprints sell for over $500.

 

P.S. No way in hell any of these are comic books. They're narrated illustrations.

The only thing I've seen that I'd call a comic book was that Yellow Kid, and even then I'd call it a "strip".

[Shield]

Oh, and I agree wholeheartedly with gifflefunk in every post on this thread. Call me the uninformed, call me uncultured. I have been buying comics since 1978 and "Oldbadiah" ain't no comic book my friend. It's a neat old illustrated magazine. All my comics have word ballons, staples, and ads. Even the ones from 1940. Those are comics.

 

 

Here's an example of what a comic book looks like:

 

 

Does Oldbadiah even have a price on the cover? Any ads for sea monkeys?

[selegue]

So, the Ebay Auction just ended for Obadiah.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...A%3AIT&rd=1

 

Does the ending price of $760 shock anyone? Someone mentioned this isn't from 1842, right, but a couple of decades later?

 

Shield,

the price is exactly what I expected...no shock for me. This book is a reprint from 1849. Although it is rare, the fact that it's a reprint and coverless was a combo that really kept the price low relative to a 1st printing from 1842 that is complete.

 

This copy's not coverless, is it? It looks like a brown cover in photo 2, and the seller describes the printing on the cover. Are you mixing up two auctions?

 

Is the interior color likely done by hand by the printer? The title page looks pretty professional (not much of a photo) but the red on later pages looks like an owner may have applied it.

 

 

most modern comic books did not have multiple printings, so it may be hard to imagine how much that makes a huge, huge value difference. Let's say Detective 27 was still printed in 1939, but then DC reprinted it off and on with some format changes and content deletions/changes for the next 60 years....that is exactly what happened with Obadiah Oldbuck. If that were the case with Detective 27, just think how much demand and value difference there would be for the 1st printing from 1939, vs. the later years reprints.

 

 

Eh?? Detective Comics 27 has probably been reprinted dozens of times. Millennium Edition, Famous First Edition/Limited Collectors Edition, various promos, hardbound Archives, foreign editions.... probably more times than Obadiah.

 

Then further imagine the pricing difference between a 100% complete 1st printing of Detective 27 from 1939 vs. a coverless reprint from 1946. You would have witth this Tec 27 scenerio a good idea of why this auction made a lot of sense for how it turned out, and why there is such a huge pricing difference between the 1st printing sales of Oldbuck that occurred last year, and the $760 realized in this weeks Ebay auction. ( in my opinion...I welcome yours )

 

Nothing to imagine. Most of the 'Tec 27 reprints are hardly worth the paper they're printed on -- probable exception for the Famous First Edition in high grade.

 

taking me to task, eh Jack?

 

 

Not really -- just looking for clarification.

This is what I meant to ask:

 

1. the Obadiah is coverless...the brown exterior is the binding,,,,the cover would have looked like the title page, but printed on light green paper...the same paper that you see at the end of the book....so yes, this book is coverless. (confirmed by Beerbohm and addressed about 2 or 3 pages earlier in this thread)

 

 

You're right that I totally misunderstood this, including Bob's explanation.

One more time for the big guys snoozing in the back row. What would a complete copy look like?

 

Should there be a lightweight, color cover bound (not a dust jacket) outside the heavy brown cardboard cover that says "Adventures of OO"? Bound right into the dark brown cloth[?] spine strip?

Or do you mean that the missing sheet should be glued to the brown "binding" exterior? [Nah, then why sold there be printing on it?]

Or should the missing sheet be inside the brown "binding" exterior?

 

 

2.I don't know if the color was hand colored by the printer or a one time owner. It was common to have certain books offered with a hand colored variation back in the day.

 

 

Thanks for the info. I've read about hand-coloring on the Plat yahoo group. To me, the coloring of the title page does look fairly professional, the rest not.

 

3. I did not say that Detective 27 was not reprinted....I said that MOST modern comic books were not reprinted...and I said that because it is true. I used Tec 27 as an example of being reprinted for a 60 year time frame for it to match the reprint history of Obadiah. I am aware of the multiple Tec 27 reprints you are referencing.

 

feel better about the accuracy of my post now?

 

I figured that you must know about the reprints! That's why it baffled me when you wrote:

 

"Let's say Detective 27 was still printed in 1939, but then DC reprinted it off and on with some format changes and content deletions/changes for the next 60 years....that is exactly what happened with Obadiah Oldbuck. If that were the case with Detective 27..."

 

as if it were hypothetical. Wouldn't you find it confusing if I wrote, "If I were typing a reply on a computer..." when I obviously am?

 

Re: the closing price. I dunno. Although I'd be proud to own it, I'm not in the market for expensive, fragile Victorian to Plat books. (I've only cracked the $100 mark once for a Silver Age key that I really wanted.) I do know how voracious the Plat yahoo group can be. $1000 wouldn't have shocked me. It looks like Mr New Mexico's early bid is the one that mattered the most by determining the winning snipe. Typical ebay closing. Your bid probably had no effect at all.

 

Jack

[Shield]

Hey Jack, Is OO a comic book?

[Shield]

Hey, even Wikipedia says it isn't the first comic book!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Obadiah_Oldbuck