Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is an early Yankee Notions #7 from 1852 with an early American home grown reucrring character Jeremiah Oldpot. This is new info to me that recurring characters were being invented in comic strip form this early in America.

 

This JO guy appears in a number of issues of Yankee Notions, a mag which runs from 1852 to as late as 1866, some 14 years, and contains all kinds of comic strips in it throughout its run. The Jeremiah Oldspot strip gets more visual and less text as time goes on - i ran out of time to fully investigate the bound volumes at Library of Congress this trip - and will be first on my list when i make my next trek there.

 

- some of the panels are artistically swiped from Topffer's two American comic books, OO and Bachelor Butterfly. More proof that Wilson & Co's 1840s comic books kick started a nascent comic strip industry in America some 60 years before Yellow Kid's single panel cartoons began in the NY World news paper

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is another early home grown comic strip from YANKEE NOTIONS v2 #2 Feb 1853:

 

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

And here is yet another early comic strip from YANKEE NOTIONS this time from a later one v9 #14 from Sept 1865,

 

Note the last two panels utilize word balloons:

 

[FlyingDonut]

My comics history is the pinnacle of integrity

 

My comics history lessons in Overstreet have nothing to do with what i sell or buy for re-sale

 

I listed Deadwood Gulch, Clancey the Cop as well as Detective Dan, Ace King, Bob Scully, as well as Tim McCoy Police Car 17 from 1934 as examples of original comics material pre-dating Action #1, as some one (you?) listed that as a starting point of original material in the posts which ran while i was gone comicon in Baltimore

 

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have a serious problem with your comic history. Ask 1,000 collectors and dealers what are the most important comics published since 1955, and I guarantee you at least ten of these will be on that list. NOT value, but importance to the industry.

 

Action Comics 252

Adventure 247

Amazing Fantasy 15

Amazing Spider-Man 1

Amazing Spider-Man 96

Amazing Spider-Man 121

Amazing Spider-Man 122

Amazing Spider-Man 129

Amazing Spider-Man 300

Avengers 1

Avengers 4

Brave and the Bold 28

Brave and the Bold 34

Batman 232

Batman 234

Cerebus 1

Conan 1

Daredevil 1

Detective 225

Detective 328

Fantastic Four 1

Fantastic Four 5

Flash 105

Giant Size X-Men 1

Green Lantern 76

Harvey Hits 3

Incredible Hulk 1

Incredible Hulk 181

Journey Into Mystery 83

Justice League of America 1

Our Army at War 83

Richie Rich 1

Showcase 4

Showcase 8

Showcase 9

Showcase 13

Showcase 22

Strange Adventures 205

Strange Tales 101

Tales of Suspense 39

Tales to Astonish 27

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1

X-Men 1

X-Men 94

X-Men 137

 

You don't mention any of them in the Guide, outside of a caption for five of them. You discuss for several pages books from 1929-1955 (which is interesting and informative ), and then fill less than a page on everything published in the last 50 years, with most of that on undergrounds. That's just superheroes. You don't mention funny animals, romance, westerns, anything.

 

Your "comprehensive history" doesn't discuss what the overwhelming majority of comics history is. For crying out loud, give Amazing Spider-Man - arguably the most recognizable fictional character in the world - at least the same amount of discussion as The Gilmore Club.

[ciorac]

 

this is the kind of drivel that drives me nuts!!

 

Action 1 does not begin Gold?

 

What in the heck did you smoke while you were in Baltimore?

 

You put Deadwood Freakin Gulch and Clancey the Cop as the genesis of the Golden Age of Comics!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

The Golden Age of Comics does not simply refer to a time period, it refers to when what comics have become, began, that Golden Shining Era. For Pete's sake Bob. Must you constantly insert what you collect and sell into every discussion???

 

 

Uncle Scrooge started the Silver Age??

 

Zap Comics started the Bronze Age???

 

You have completely gone off the deep end bro. Your latest assertions are flabbergasting. Just ridiculous. I guess having box after box of Undergrounds, Plats, Ducks, etc for sale, has no bearing whatsoever on the above lunacy?

 

I know you love that stuff. Cool. Lots of people do. But lordy lordy, what kind of world is it when a man with the knowledge and experience of Bob Beerbohm says that the immortal Clancey the Cop started the whole blamed Golden Age. I better get my butt over to eBay and see if I can find me one before there is a run on them and the price skyrockets!

 

 

I can ascertain with much certainty that you have never bothered to READ my comics history lessons which have been running in Overstreet for a decade now. I discuss all of what i briefly listed therein and a whole lot more as comics history evolution is unfolded for one to learn.

 

I have noticed a New Trend i do not agree with the last few years, in fact will never agree with, to make Action #1 the beginning of the "golden age" of comics - this is new to me,

 

methinks you have been drinking too much again, "bro"

 

I have been making my living for some decades now selling & buying, even trading, comic books, comic strips, pulps, character toys, animation & movie stuff and related material - i have comic books from every conceivable age, era, genre that one might wish to shake a stick at - big F***in deal.

 

For you to imply, state, write, what ever one wishes to call the above lunacy drivil you have just written is insulting to say the least

 

My comics history is the pinnacle of integrity

 

My comics history lessons in Overstreet have nothing to do with what i sell or buy for re-sale

 

I listed Deadwood Gulch, Clancey the Cop as well as Detective Dan, Ace King, Bob Scully, as well as Tim McCoy Police Car 17 from 1934 as examples of original comics material pre-dating Action #1, as some one (you?) listed that as a starting point of original material in the posts which ran while i was gone comicon in Baltimore

 

You did not READ my post: i state in there that nothing is the BEGINNING of any era except maybe Obadiah Oldbuck as a comic book

 

All other eras over lap one another - NOTHING is BC/AD in the other comics "eras"

 

takre a breather, have some coffee, detox, and come back to this

 

Now, i jest with you - and i trust you jest with me, but if not, then we got problems

 

Has sho'nuff infiltrated Mississippi ??

 

bob beerbohm

 

You are right Bob, to a certain degree I am picking with you for fun. Because you know I think a lot of you. But, I just vomit every time I see you slam Action #1. You know good and darn well it started what is widely considered the Golden Age of comics.

 

Of course comics pre-dated Action #1, and there are some extremely important and cool ones that did... Detective #1, More Fun #14, Adventure #32, Famous Funnies 1, Detective Dan ( I gotta get me one of those), but let's be real. They led to the TRUE Golden Age. Which started with a cover date of June #1938. Yeah, I call my pre-hero Tecs, Adventures, More Funs, etc. Golden Age, but not in the timeline sense, just cause they are from that era.

[Aman619]

I can ascertain with much certainty that you have never bothered to READ my comics history lessons which have been running in Overstreet for a decade now. I discuss all of what i briefly listed therein and a whole lot more as comics history evolution is unfolded for one to learn.

 

cheeesus Bob. I sure wish youd lay off the "history lesson" thing already. Give us a break. Even the most pompous azszs here on the boards doesnt actually claim their words are "history lessons." Articles. Sections. Pieces, yes. Research topics maybe. but "lessons".?? wowiezowie, man.

[Bronty]

I was about to post the same thing last night before having to shut the computer off.

 

 

[showcase4]

 

this is the kind of drivel that drives me nuts!!

 

Action 1 does not begin Gold?

 

What in the heck did you smoke while you were in Baltimore?

You are right Bob, to a certain degree I am picking with you for fun. Because you know I think a lot of you. But, I just vomit every time I see you slam Action #1. You know good and darn well it started what is widely considered the Golden Age of comics.

 

.

 

Hey Bob B,

you know I'm with you, and believe your research to be accurate and invaluable to me ...with that said, I have to agree with Bill P on this issue. If you don't give credit where credit is due for the big landmark established books like Action 1, I think it will be harder for you to help others accept the Victorian and Platinum Age books.

 

There has to be a common ground that we all agree on, and then build from there. If you don't acknowledge Action 1 as at least one of the kings of all comics, then there is little you can do to help others see the greatness of other books, as you will be starting with a weak foundation to build from, as you risk not having others respect and/or confidence.

 

As I have said before and my investment is supporting evidence, NO ONE loves and appreaciates and worships Obadiah Oldbuck more than me (except maybe you), but that doesn't discount the fact that Action #1 is the greatest comic book ever printed. Obadiah Oldbuck is the #1 key book of the entire Victorian / Platinum Age, but that does not in and of itself make it the greatest comic book printed in the past 164 years.....it makes it in my opinion one of the greatest, but not automatically THE greatest. I realize that you are a Historian, and as such, maybe 1st is the greatest.............however, this thread is being read by a group of collectors, not fellow historians. I think if you put your "collector" hat on, you will see where I'm coming from. Please don't think I'm trying to throw you "under the bus"...I am trying to help...the Boards are starting to turn against you!

 

So, to help me help you, please let us know your opinion on the greatness and importance of Action #1....

Throw these guys a bone !

[Theagenes]

Personally, I think that the comics from the birth of the modern comic magazine in 1933 (or 1929 if you want to include the Funnies tabloid) to the birth of the superhero in 1938 should be seen as it's own era. You can call it whatever you want: Pre-Golden Age, Pre-Superhero Age, Strip Reprint Age (since the majority were reprints), Electrum Age maybe. Whatever. The creation of the modern format clearly began a new significant trend in the industry as did the appearance of Superman.

 

BTW, the order of the "metallic" Ages has always puzzled me as it seems to be a combination of the mythological ages in Hesiod and the monetary system from D&D. If you were going to stick to Hesiod, which no doubt was the original inspiration, then the Copper Age should actually be the Iron Age.

[goldust40]

So, to help me help you, please let us know your opinion on the greatness and importance of Action #1....

 

Such magnanimity. As if this vain and unnecessary attempt at diplomacy would automatically bring credence to your dogma. Plus, I don't think we need to be told about the greatness and importance of Action Comics 1, which is a really great and important comic book. No really.

 

 

 

Throw these guys a bone !

 

Quickly Bob, humor them before they run away!!!!

[showcase4]

I don't think we need to be told about the greatness and importance of Action Comics 1

 

I know you don't "need" to be told about the greatness and importance of Action 1....if you read my post again, you will see that I was asking Bob Beerbohm if he would share his thoughts on Action 1

[goldust40]

I don't think we need to be told about the greatness and importance of Action Comics 1

 

I know you don't "need" to be told about the greatness and importance of Action 1....if you read my post again, you will see that I was asking Bob Beerbohm if he would share his thoughts on Action 1

 

And my point is that however academic his thoughts may be re Action 1, there is nothing more to be said about that book.

[showcase4]

I don't think we need to be told about the greatness and importance of Action Comics 1

 

I know you don't "need" to be told about the greatness and importance of Action 1....if you read my post again, you will see that I was asking Bob Beerbohm if he would share his thoughts on Action 1

 

And my point is that however academic his thoughts may be re Action 1, there is nothing more to be said about that book.

 

I really like this little Graemlin....here, I'll use it some more:

[BLBcomics-migration]

Personally, I think that the comics from the birth of the modern comic magazine in 1933 (or 1929 if you want to include the Funnies tabloid) to the birth of the superhero in 1938 should be seen as it's own era. You can call it whatever you want: Pre-Golden Age, Pre-Superhero Age, Strip Reprint Age (since the majority were reprints), Electrum Age maybe. Whatever. The creation of the modern format clearly began a new significant trend in the industry as did the appearance of Superman.

 

BTW, the order of the "metallic" Ages has always puzzled me as it seems to be a combination of the mythological ages in Hesiod and the monetary system from D&D. If you were going to stick to Hesiod, which no doubt was the original inspiration, then the Copper Age should actually be the Iron Age.

 

I picked Thegenes post to click on my response to the responses, and will be responding to every one here, so some of my thoughts may stray from the quotes above. If i missed you, i apologize

 

Of course Superman is one of the greatest cultural icons created in America by an American and a Canadian - that has never been an issue.

 

Action #1 important? Of course it is.

 

Is it the single most important comic book ever printed?

 

Me, i do not think so. My opinion - shared by others i know as well.

 

Is it Super-Important?

 

Yes, without a doubt.

 

Have i enjoyed reading Superman for over 45 years now?

 

Of course, having read every Superman story from 1933 up thru 1991 or so - i do not look at new stuff any more except in isolated instances.

 

To date, i have produced what i think is one of the most definitive look-sees at the origins of where Superman originated in the minds of those two boys from Cleveland in Comic Book Marketplace 50, published almost a decade ago in an article titles "The Big Bang Theory of Comic Book History". Too bad Gary Carter saw fit to "edit" out 4000 words to make room for all comic dealer ads seeings how he insisted it be in the San Diego give away issue that year.

 

Fandom is able to view the First Superman Cover because my addled high school brain took it upon itself to print up that heavily damaged cover in a batch of double-up sized posters to preserve it for posterity back in 1971.

 

What i do find to be an issue in this discussion is the tunnel-visioned hang-up with blinders on concerning super heroes being the supposed apex of all things comics.

 

Taint so Joe

 

I did not pick the names of these "Ages" - i try to work within those parameters, not agreeing that we need to use those names, but trying to go with that flow nonetheless.

 

The three history lessons and the two prices indexes comprise some 66 pages in the Guide.

 

"Articles. Sections. Pieces, yes. Research topics maybe. but "lessons".??

 

Yes, i call them history lessons - and they could easily be called articles or whatever.

 

There are a lot of younger collectors for whom the three inter-twined pages of words are indeed lessons in proper comics history - and the space is limited so i concentrate in the "modern comics" history lesson on aspects to provoke food for thought that there is life above and beyond that provided by super heroes in comics.

 

I forgot to include COMIC MONTHLY, THE FUNNIES, and other comic books with original material - directing readers of these words to the expanded version of this debate to what i present in the modern comics history, the 3rd essay on comics history in Overstreet replete with as much visual aid as possible, each cover scan therein painstakingly hand picked due to severe spacial limitations.

 

Yes, i go thru the earliest origins of the modern comic book in that 3rd essay, and cover the last decades up thru the beginning of "Bronze" in a page or so, with emphasis on Crumb's intro of ZAP COMICS as that is what needs to be taught the most from my perspective since the entire underground comix output to this day is still not in Overstreet - the door is cracked open therein to let comic book collectors know UGs exist, are "real" comic books also, and deserve to be included in the pantheon of comic books.

 

Crumb Shelton Griffin Wilson Sheridan Corben Bode Jaxon Spain Moscoso Williams O'Neill London and 100s of other comix creators do not have a voice for them in Overstreet to this day, and that rattles my cage like almost no other aspect of comics collecting importance.

 

1938 thru 1945 or so can rightfully be called The Golden Age of Super Hero Comic Books

 

But it ain't the Golden Age of Comics

 

Not all comics

 

And i have been calling the three essays history lessons for years now - that is what they are. I was invited by The Powers That Be to teach proper comics history to comic book collectors who get the Overstreet.

 

There is no arrogance in those history lessons in Overstreet - painstaking research has been performed. And each year i try to squeeze in as much new data as possible, suffering thru what to leave out to make way for "new" data, making my case over the years why i need more space to present this or that newly re-discovered data

 

And i wish i had more space to be able to accommodate issues raised by others here on data left out - data i know to be important as well - but no room in the inn

 

I hope to finish up my comics business history book soon, then get it published.

[Comicdey]

Please finish the book... ..you're spending too much time on the boards. I do want to read it.

[Theagenes]

Please finish the book... ..you're spending too much time on the boards. I do want to read it.

 

Ditto! Though I am very glad you take the time to post here, Bob.

 

Just for the record, my comments above re: Comic Book Ages weren't directed at you or anyone in particular -- just random musings.

[Theagenes]

Also, I very much agree that so-called "underground comix" should absolutely be included in OPG. Why they are not, but yet many of the independents from the 80's are, makes no sense to me. What's the difference?

[BLBcomics-migration]

My comics history is the pinnacle of integrity

 

My comics history lessons in Overstreet have nothing to do with what i sell or buy for re-sale

 

I listed Deadwood Gulch, Clancey the Cop as well as Detective Dan, Ace King, Bob Scully, as well as Tim McCoy Police Car 17 from 1934 as examples of original comics material pre-dating Action #1, as some one (you?) listed that as a starting point of original material in the posts which ran while i was gone comicon in Baltimore

 

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have a serious problem with your comic history. Ask 1,000 collectors and dealers what are the most important comics published since 1955, and I guarantee you at least ten of these will be on that list. NOT value, but importance to the industry.

 

Action Comics 252

Adventure 247

Amazing Fantasy 15

Amazing Spider-Man 1

Amazing Spider-Man 96

Amazing Spider-Man 121

Amazing Spider-Man 122

Amazing Spider-Man 129

Amazing Spider-Man 300

Avengers 1

Avengers 4

Brave and the Bold 28

Brave and the Bold 34

Batman 232

Batman 234

Cerebus 1

Conan 1

Daredevil 1

Detective 225

Detective 328

Fantastic Four 1

Fantastic Four 5

Flash 105

Giant Size X-Men 1

Green Lantern 76

Harvey Hits 3

Incredible Hulk 1

Incredible Hulk 181

Journey Into Mystery 83

Justice League of America 1

Our Army at War 83

Richie Rich 1

Showcase 4

Showcase 8

Showcase 9

Showcase 13

Showcase 22

Strange Adventures 205

Strange Tales 101

Tales of Suspense 39

Tales to Astonish 27

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1

X-Men 1

X-Men 94

X-Men 137

 

You don't mention any of them in the Guide, outside of a caption for five of them. You discuss for several pages books from 1929-1955 (which is interesting and informative ), and then fill less than a page on everything published in the last 50 years, with most of that on undergrounds. That's just superheroes. You don't mention funny animals, romance, westerns, anything.

 

Your "comprehensive history" doesn't discuss what the overwhelming majority of comics history is. For crying out loud, give Amazing Spider-Man - arguably the most recognizable fictional character in the world - at least the same amount of discussion as The Gilmore Club.

 

Hello

 

No doubt about it, the books you listed are mostly all fun reads, and some level of importance and one could add probably a few hundred more to such a list

 

The history i am able to present in Overstreet is severely limited by the amount of space allocated by the publishers to me - i could use a lot more space, obviously, but it ain't my book

 

So, i made a decision to take what i do in Overstreet up to the "Bronze" era, bringing up concepts which i feel warrant food for thought.

 

I do notice you include Harvey Hits 3 and Richie Rich 1m but wonder why you leave out the very first appearance of RR in Little Dot #1 as well as 3-D Dolly #1, which also contains the same first RR story coming out approx the same time

 

One can analyze any given list of books such as yours, and come up with many myriad offshoots to say "why is this or that left out?"

 

What i will never agree with though is the "important" comic books must needs be super hero in orientation in the main

 

And i wonder why FF 1 and 5, but not #4 with its re-intro of Subby - the panel where Johnny Storm lights up his finger and gives the "bearded bum" a shave i thought was so neat when i bought my FF #4 off the stands back in 1962 - it was my first FF, i thought the first 3 to be boring enough not to buy - but #4 segueing into #5 made me a believer

 

And does one really need to gush all over Spiderman in the Overstreet? That character is also so iconic as Superman, and has so much already written about it, i feel covering stuff a bit more obscure to be more in order - and i was a huge Spiderman fan back in the Ditko days

 

A friend of mine and myself called Ditko on the phone back in 1969, telling him we were boycotting Spiderman waiting for him to come back to the creative chores. Ditko laughed, then told us a tale of promised royalties unpaid. Ditko contributed to my fanzine FANZATION #3 back in 1969. Werttham quoted from Ditko's contrib in his last book THE WORLD OF FANZINES 1974. Wertham had a sub to my zine, it is referred to at least nine times in his book.

 

But i digress.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Please finish the book... ..you're spending too much time on the boards. I do want to read it.

 

Ditto! Though I am very glad you take the time to post here, Bob.

 

Just for the record, my comments above re: Comic Book Ages weren't directed at you or anyone in particular -- just random musings.

 

I come to this thread while taking a break from my comics biz - I am a firm believer in a comics history in America which encompasses over 160 years of history.

 

I did not know where my quest was going to take me when i began it a decade ago

 

And much of what i write here is not directed any any individual either, musings yes, i try not to be random, just sharing my perspectives, which i fully understand some to not agree with, and probably never will.

[esquirecomics]

Apparently there is a first edition copy of Oldbuck on e-bay now. Currently at $3,500. Is this the same copy that you have Steve?

 

E-bay Auction