Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

 

You are right Bob, to a certain degree I am picking with you for fun. Because you know I think a lot of you. But, I just vomit every time I see you slam Action #1. You know good and darn well it started what is widely considered the Golden Age of comics.

 

Of course comics pre-dated Action #1, and there are some extremely important and cool ones that did... Detective #1, More Fun #14, Adventure #32, Famous Funnies 1, Detective Dan ( I gotta get me one of those), but let's be real. They led to the TRUE Golden Age. Which started with a cover date of June #1938. Yeah, I call my pre-hero Tecs, Adventures, More Funs, etc. Golden Age, but not in the timeline sense, just cause they are from that era.

 

Bill, i am not slamming Action #1 - truly a Super Important comic book, and any one who does not say so is simply daft.

 

I have trouble accepting Action #1 being the most important comic book ever created

 

And i have been a huge Superman fan since being a wee tyke knee high to the grasshoppa

 

There is not single "most important" comic book

 

Depends on which "era" one is examining

 

I object to the late 30s thru mid 1940s comic books being a "Golden Age" in comics

 

I look at the newspaper comics in conjunction with the comic books all in one breath

 

I wish super hero comic book collectors could do the same - Sturgeon's Law of 10% comes to mind. So much of the super hero comic book output is unreadable drivel

 

But then again, maybe i have read too many comic books, and maybe i would not be writing what i have written here if i had not expanded my horizons many moons ago into all things comics from all over the world.

 

There is sooooooo much more to comics than super hero

[BLBcomics-migration]

Apparently there is a first edition copy of Oldbuck on e-bay now. Currently at $3,500. Is this the same copy that you have Steve?

 

E-bay Auction

 

This is not one of Steve's copies - this is a new one, in a bound volume, and the pages are all trimmed down into book form - some of the pages are trimmed so close they come up to the edges of the art - but it is still a copy, and is hard to acquire any any condition

[esquirecomics]

Apparently there is a first edition copy of Oldbuck on e-bay now. Currently at $3,500. Is this the same copy that you have Steve?

 

E-bay Auction

 

This is not one of Steve's copies - this is a new one, in a bound volume, and the pages are all trimmed down into book form - some of the pages are trimmed so close they come up to the edges of the art - but it is still a copy, and is hard to acquire any any condition

 

I didn't mean it was Steve's actual copy but the same version as he has, i.e., the first edition.

 

What would you sell this for if you had it?

[PUNYHUMAN]

My comics history is the pinnacle of integrity

 

My comics history lessons in Overstreet have nothing to do with what i sell or buy for re-sale

 

I listed Deadwood Gulch, Clancey the Cop as well as Detective Dan, Ace King, Bob Scully, as well as Tim McCoy Police Car 17 from 1934 as examples of original comics material pre-dating Action #1, as some one (you?) listed that as a starting point of original material in the posts which ran while i was gone comicon in Baltimore

 

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have a serious problem with your comic history. Ask 1,000 collectors and dealers what are the most important comics published since 1955, and I guarantee you at least ten of these will be on that list. NOT value, but importance to the industry.

 

Action Comics 252

Adventure 247

Amazing Fantasy 15

Amazing Spider-Man 1

Amazing Spider-Man 96

Amazing Spider-Man 121

Amazing Spider-Man 122

Amazing Spider-Man 129

Amazing Spider-Man 300

Avengers 1

Avengers 4

Brave and the Bold 28

Brave and the Bold 34

Batman 232

Batman 234

Cerebus 1

Conan 1

Daredevil 1

Detective 225

Detective 328

Fantastic Four 1

Fantastic Four 5

Flash 105

Giant Size X-Men 1

Green Lantern 76

Harvey Hits 3

Incredible Hulk 1

Incredible Hulk 181

Journey Into Mystery 83

Justice League of America 1

Our Army at War 83

Richie Rich 1

Showcase 4

Showcase 8

Showcase 9

Showcase 13

Showcase 22

Strange Adventures 205

Strange Tales 101

Tales of Suspense 39

Tales to Astonish 27

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1

X-Men 1

X-Men 94

X-Men 137

 

You don't mention any of them in the Guide, outside of a caption for five of them. You discuss for several pages books from 1929-1955 (which is interesting and informative ), and then fill less than a page on everything published in the last 50 years, with most of that on undergrounds. That's just superheroes. You don't mention funny animals, romance, westerns, anything.

 

Your "comprehensive history" doesn't discuss what the overwhelming majority of comics history is. For crying out loud, give Amazing Spider-Man - arguably the most recognizable fictional character in the world - at least the same amount of discussion as The Gilmore Club.

Hey Donut, what about Showcase # 6 1st Challengers , Pre FF prototypes?? Hey I'm Biased , love the Challls !! I have one!! Just joking too!! But I still love the Kirby Challs!!

[BLBcomics-migration]

Apparently there is a first edition copy of Oldbuck on e-bay now. Currently at $3,500. Is this the same copy that you have Steve?

 

E-bay Auction

 

This is not one of Steve's copies - this is a new one, in a bound volume, and the pages are all trimmed down into book form - some of the pages are trimmed so close they come up to the edges of the art - but it is still a copy, and is hard to acquire any any condition

 

I didn't mean it was Steve's actual copy but the same version as he has, i.e., the first edition.

 

What would you sell this for if you had it?

 

Yes, this is a first printing Sept 14 1842

 

not seeing the actual copy, i am reluctant to venture a price concept

 

It runs thru Sunday, so i=t most likely has a way to go

 

the paper looks to be OK, but there is most likely a trim concept in motion here as it is part of a Brother Jonathan publisher bound volume - it looks identical to the bound volume i have from May-Aug 1842

[FlyingDonut]

My comics history is the pinnacle of integrity

 

My comics history lessons in Overstreet have nothing to do with what i sell or buy for re-sale

 

I listed Deadwood Gulch, Clancey the Cop as well as Detective Dan, Ace King, Bob Scully, as well as Tim McCoy Police Car 17 from 1934 as examples of original comics material pre-dating Action #1, as some one (you?) listed that as a starting point of original material in the posts which ran while i was gone comicon in Baltimore

 

I've tried to stay out of this, but I have a serious problem with your comic history. Ask 1,000 collectors and dealers what are the most important comics published since 1955, and I guarantee you at least ten of these will be on that list. NOT value, but importance to the industry.

 

Action Comics 252

Adventure 247

Amazing Fantasy 15

Amazing Spider-Man 1

Amazing Spider-Man 96

Amazing Spider-Man 121

Amazing Spider-Man 122

Amazing Spider-Man 129

Amazing Spider-Man 300

Avengers 1

Avengers 4

Brave and the Bold 28

Brave and the Bold 34

Batman 232

Batman 234

Cerebus 1

Conan 1

Daredevil 1

Detective 225

Detective 328

Fantastic Four 1

Fantastic Four 5

Flash 105

Giant Size X-Men 1

Green Lantern 76

Harvey Hits 3

Incredible Hulk 1

Incredible Hulk 181

Journey Into Mystery 83

Justice League of America 1

Our Army at War 83

Richie Rich 1

Showcase 4

Showcase 8

Showcase 9

Showcase 13

Showcase 22

Strange Adventures 205

Strange Tales 101

Tales of Suspense 39

Tales to Astonish 27

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1

X-Men 1

X-Men 94

X-Men 137

 

You don't mention any of them in the Guide, outside of a caption for five of them. You discuss for several pages books from 1929-1955 (which is interesting and informative ), and then fill less than a page on everything published in the last 50 years, with most of that on undergrounds. That's just superheroes. You don't mention funny animals, romance, westerns, anything.

 

Your "comprehensive history" doesn't discuss what the overwhelming majority of comics history is. For crying out loud, give Amazing Spider-Man - arguably the most recognizable fictional character in the world - at least the same amount of discussion as The Gilmore Club.

 

Hello

 

No doubt about it, the books you listed are mostly all fun reads, and some level of importance and one could add probably a few hundred more to such a list

 

The history i am able to present in Overstreet is severely limited by the amount of space allocated by the publishers to me - i could use a lot more space, obviously, but it ain't my book

 

So, i made a decision to take what i do in Overstreet up to the "Bronze" era, bringing up concepts which i feel warrant food for thought.

 

I do notice you include Harvey Hits 3 and Richie Rich 1m but wonder why you leave out the very first appearance of RR in Little Dot #1 as well as 3-D Dolly #1, which also contains the same first RR story coming out approx the same time

 

One can analyze any given list of books such as yours, and come up with many myriad offshoots to say "why is this or that left out?"

 

What i will never agree with though is the "important" comic books must needs be super hero in orientation in the main

 

And i wonder why FF 1 and 5, but not #4 with its re-intro of Subby - the panel where Johnny Storm lights up his finger and gives the "bearded bum" a shave i thought was so neat when i bought my FF #4 off the stands back in 1962 - it was my first FF, i thought the first 3 to be boring enough not to buy - but #4 segueing into #5 made me a believer

 

And does one really need to gush all over Spiderman in the Overstreet? That character is also so iconic as Superman, and has so much already written about it, i feel covering stuff a bit more obscure to be more in order - and i was a huge Spiderman fan back in the Ditko days

 

A friend of mine and myself called Ditko on the phone back in 1969, telling him we were boycotting Spiderman waiting for him to come back to the creative chores. Ditko laughed, then told us a tale of promised royalties unpaid. Ditko contributed to my fanzine FANZATION #3 back in 1969. Werttham quoted from Ditko's contrib in his last book THE WORLD OF FANZINES 1974. Wertham had a sub to my zine, it is referred to at least nine times in his book.

 

But i digress.

 

I did that list off the top of my head in about 10 minutes, so I'm sure I missed something - but you really need to include Spider-Man. You don't need to gush, but you need to discuss the character at least.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

 

I did that list off the top of my head in about 10 minutes, so I'm sure I missed something - but you really need to include Spider-Man. You don't need to gush, but you need to discuss the character at least.

 

I am sure you did, many of my lists here are done as quickly as well

 

I will take another look at where i can maybe squeeze in more gush on ol' web head, as he is as well known as Superman or batman these days - i thought picturing the book would be enough. I wish i had enough room to do a history of Marvel, EC, and other important companies but the page limitations is something i try to work around, so i concentrate on the earlier history back in the 1930s which is the hardest stuff to figure out

 

and the Bronze history lesson following my pieces is too new to do Spidey

[ciorac]

I don't think we need to be told about the greatness and importance of Action Comics 1

 

I know you don't "need" to be told about the greatness and importance of Action 1....if you read my post again, you will see that I was asking Bob Beerbohm if he would share his thoughts on Action 1

 

And my point is that however academic his thoughts may be re Action 1, there is nothing more to be said about that book.

 

I really like this little Graemlin....here, I'll use it some more:

 

[ciorac]

 

this is the kind of drivel that drives me nuts!!

 

Action 1 does not begin Gold?

 

What in the heck did you smoke while you were in Baltimore?

You are right Bob, to a certain degree I am picking with you for fun. Because you know I think a lot of you. But, I just vomit every time I see you slam Action #1. You know good and darn well it started what is widely considered the Golden Age of comics.

 

.

 

Hey Bob B,

you know I'm with you, and believe your research to be accurate and invaluable to me ...with that said, I have to agree with Bill P on this issue. If you don't give credit where credit is due for the big landmark established books like Action 1, I think it will be harder for you to help others accept the Victorian and Platinum Age books.

 

There has to be a common ground that we all agree on, and then build from there. If you don't acknowledge Action 1 as at least one of the kings of all comics, then there is little you can do to help others see the greatness of other books, as you will be starting with a weak foundation to build from, as you risk not having others respect and/or confidence.

 

As I have said before and my investment is supporting evidence, NO ONE loves and appreaciates and worships Obadiah Oldbuck more than me (except maybe you), but that doesn't discount the fact that Action #1 is the greatest comic book ever printed. Obadiah Oldbuck is the #1 key book of the entire Victorian / Platinum Age, but that does not in and of itself make it the greatest comic book printed in the past 164 years.....it makes it in my opinion one of the greatest, but not automatically THE greatest. I realize that you are a Historian, and as such, maybe 1st is the greatest.............however, this thread is being read by a group of collectors, not fellow historians. I think if you put your "collector" hat on, you will see where I'm coming from. Please don't think I'm trying to throw you "under the bus"...I am trying to help...the Boards are starting to turn against you!

 

So, to help me help you, please let us know your opinion on the greatness and importance of Action #1....

Throw these guys a bone !

 

Nicely said Steve. You've come a long way over the past few months.

 

If you are planning to go to the Dallas show in Novermber, I would be happy to buy you dinner for a close up peek at your Detective Dan, OO, et al.

 

[showcase4]

Nicely said Steve. You've come a long way over the past few months.

If you are planning to go to the Dallas show in Novermber, I would be happy to buy you dinner

 

...as long as you don't try to stick your Atomic Thunderbolt in my Bat-Cave

[Theagenes]

...as long as you don't try to stick your Atomic Thunderbolt in my Bat-Cave

 

 

(Not that there's anything wrong with that )

[Theagenes]

I found something very interesting yesterday. About 20 years ago, my grandmother bought a house and in it was found a bound volume of German newspapers from the 1800s, apparently left behind by the previous owner (yeah, I know how that sounds, but it was my grandmother, not my grandfather and it was in a stroage room, not the attic. ).

 

Anyway, it had been stored at my mom's ever since and it had never really been looked at much except after it was originally found. All I remembered was that it had some amazing engravings. Well, this thread got me thinking about it again, so when my mom came in town to visit last weekend I asked her to bring it with her, because I'd like to check it out and see what exactly it is. It turns out it's bound volume of a full year of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper from 1872, only it's a German language edition. For those of you not familiar with Frank Leslie's Illustrated, it is famous for it's beautiful engravings and was the main competitor with Harper's Weekly in the 19th century. Apparently they printed both German and Spanish version aimed at immigrants, with extra material that would be of interest to those readers (in this case there's a lot of stuff about Bismark and Prussian expansion). The binding appears to date to the 1920's and was deteriorating rapidly, but most of the individual issues are in pretty good shape. Since the binding seems to have gotten water damage and is doing more harm than good at this point I've been carefully removing the issues - they are only bound with string, not glue and they don't appear to be trimmed.

 

So I'm going through these issues, and I see some great political cartoons, when I come across an actual comic strip! Apparently I've had a Victorian comic strip all these years and never knew it! And if it weren't for this thread I probably wouldn't have know it for another decade or two. So without further ado here it is:

 

 

[Theagenes]

I've pretty much forgotten the smattering of German I picked up in grad school, but basically it's about a colicky baby that nobody can get to stop crying, despite various methods like holding a ticking watch up to its ear, etc. At the end it turns out that a pair of scissors had fallen into its diaper when his mother was changing him (third panel). The name of the author given is W. Busch. This is the May 4, 1872 issue. I'm still going through these issues and if I find more comic strips I'll post them if there's interest.

 

Here's the front cover BTW. It gives you an idea of some of the beautiful engravings.

 

 

[Theagenes]

Here's another comic strip. This one is actually serialized over three issues. Does that make this old guy and his donkey the first recurring comicstrip character, predating the Brownies and Yellowkid?

 

BTW the text here is verse and only rhymes in German, so I'm guessing this strip only appeared in the German language edition (European reprint?). The title of the strip is "The Tailor of Brinzingen(?)" and the author is C. Reinhardt. I'm working on translating it.

 

 

Dec. 30, 1871:

 

 

 

Jan. 6, 1872:

 

 

 

Jan. 13, 1872:

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Like i have been trying to show with previous scans, as well as my research showing me, there are many many 1800s comic strips. There are thousands of them, in hundreds of publications, and this is the next big push in the indexing of all these comic strip in the next Guide: indexing the humor mags of the 1800s. I have located some large caches of these and will be indexing at the site next month in October.

 

The Busch strip is one of 100s he drew over a long career. His most famous book in America is Max & Moritz, from which Hearst & Dirks invented The Katzenjammer Kids, Here is the cover to my first printing from 1870:

 

[Theagenes]

Very cool! Are you familiar with this Reinhardt as well?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here's another comic strip. This one is actually serialized over three issues. Does that make this old guy and his donkey the first recurring comicstrip character, predating the Brownies and Yellowkid?

 

BTW the text here is verse and only rhymes in German, so I'm guessing this strip only appeared in the German language edition (European reprint?). The title of the strip is "The Tailor of Brinzingen(?)" and the author is C. Reinhardt. I'm working on translating it.

 

The earliest known recurring comics-like character i know of is Doctor Syntax by British cartoonist Rowlandson, created circa 1820s if i remember correctly - would have to look this one up and my resources for that data are not handy right now

 

A couple days ago i posted a sample of the recurring character Jeremiah Oldpot from Yankee Notions #7 1852.

 

There are many strips featuring Jeremiah Oldpot in Yankee Notions which ran from 1852 to at least 1866.

 

Since no one mentioned having read the Yankee Notions strips i scanned for here, i present just the JO again. There is quite a bit of text narration, which disappears in later incarnations:

 

 

and here is the cover once again from that issue:

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Very cool! Are you familiar with this Reinhardt as well?

 

No, but i have comics scholar friends in Germany i can put you in touch with - these guys are on my Plat list, which you should join. Address to join in my sig at the bottom.

 

Reinhardts work looks beautiful - i now want to learn more about him

 

We also have a visual aid e-list called PlatPics, where all scans get poured thru, then discussed on the main list. We have two lists cuz many posters cannot take the large files which come thru PlatPics

 

- we post onPlatPics so scholars can blow up the scans to huge dimensions to study the printed line work better

 

These would be reprints from Germay, BTW, especially i know for a fact the Busch stuff, as far as i know Busch never actually came to America.

 

There is a Busch museum in Cologne I believe, though i might be wrong on the city where it is located - he is very famous in Germany, like Topffer is in Switzerland

[aardvark88]

Bob,

 

Do u recommend that collectors break open bound volumes to extract key issues like Oldbuck or keep the publisher's volume intact? Current eBay auction ends 06Sept17.

[ciorac]

Nicely said Steve. You've come a long way over the past few months.

If you are planning to go to the Dallas show in Novermber, I would be happy to buy you dinner

 

...as long as you don't try to stick your Atomic Thunderbolt in my Bat-Cave