Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[Bronty]

Bob,

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that in all likelihood Action 1 is far more common than OO. But we don't *really* know that yet. The point holds, and I credit you for acknowledging it, that OO has only been seen as a "key" Brother Jonathan for a very short period of time. It will take many years for us to have a better picture as to how many are truly out there as up until recently it's pretty much been considered a random Victorian publication and not really any different than similar material of similar vintage.

 

Showcase,

 

As for your comments re price, personally I think the 6600 is a somewhat weak (but not terrible) result as compared to the 20k (no offense). I don't think for a minute that you can apply the overstreet multiples on an item like this, so to me the fair @6600 = vg@20000 doesn't hold any water whatsoever. I would expect an very compact set of grade/price multiples for this item. People who want a copy will I think be relatively very accepting of condition flaws given the antiquity of the item and the likely impossibility of getting a NM example. The mint freaks who drive the grade/price curve aren't at play here.

[Bronty]

 

Perfectly understandable.......Victorian and Platinum Age books are a niche....not mainstream. That's the beauty of our great hobby....so many different areas to dive in to. I used to collect high grade Silver, and the Vic/Plat market I now focus on is very, very different. I went from 9.4's to hoping the cover is still attached.

 

That's cool, and I agree, variety is the spice of life. My avatar is a close up of a video game I paid 3k for which I'm sure most people think is nuts, so I'm definitely a subsriber to the 'different strokes for different folks' philosophy.

 

re cover still attached - and kind of ironic as I was typing out my 'compact grade/price curve' comments at the same time.

 

Are you going after more copies if you find them?

 

cheers

[showcase4]

I am going to buy up every copy ( what few there are that is ) that I can get my hands on......the next 10 years or so will determine if I'm onto something...or on something !

[Bronty]

very well put! Good luck

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob,

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that in all likelihood Action 1 is far more common than OO. But we don't *really* know that yet. The point holds, and I credit you for acknowledging it, that OO has only been seen as a "key" Brother Jonathan for a very short period of time. It will take many years for us to have a better picture as to how many are truly out there as up until recently it's pretty much been considered a random Victorian publication and not really any different than similar material of similar vintage.

 

I do not think it is very difficult to figure out that OO is way less common than Action 1

 

Up until 1998 OO was pretty not much on the radar of any comic book collector, i can count on a hand or two of the people i now know knew of it back then. So, its existence in comics fandom has been well known for a decade now, to those who bothered to read the history lessons every year, as new data has kept surfacing.

 

so far we have found printings for OO dating:

 

1842

1849

1855

1860s-1904 - multiple printings exist here

 

The research i have been doing on pre 1930 comic books has nothing to do with trying to drive a price of any of it up - i am simply after the knowledge and wisdom that the American comic book industry is 164 years old now, that is dates from waaay before 1933 - the research i have been doing has been for my own personal edification, and i was asked by John Snyder to share that research with fandom at large.

 

I would actually prefer prices of most all comic books to go down in price so i can afford to collect more, buy them cheaper, etc - but that is just my little secret, don't tell any one

[rjpb]

I collect promotional anti-communist books. Very few other people do. On e-bay there are at about 4 other primary competitors for these books. We each typically already have the books we seek to purchase and just want to add more to the collection given the rarity.

 

Hoarder - from a disguntled secondary (or would it be tertiary?) bidder.

Did you get the e-mail from ebay on that recent Red Iceberg auction?

[ciorac]

I would actually prefer prices of most all comic books to go down in price so i can afford to collect more, buy them cheaper, etc - but that is just my little secret, don't tell any one

 

Now there is something I would have to agree with you 100% on!!!

[Bronty]

 

Up until 1998 OO was pretty not much on the radar of any comic book collector, i can count on a hand or two of the people i now know knew of it back then. So, its existence in comics fandom has been well known for a decade now, to those who bothered to read the history lessons every year, as new data has kept surfacing.

 

 

But how long have people been searching it out as an item they can flip quickly for a big profit? That's what drives copies out of the woodwork, and I would suggest that most of comics fandom does *still* not recognize it as a money book. You get 50,000 would be profiteers on the trail, like with action 1, and then we'll know how many there *really* are, although common sense suggests it will probably still be quite a low #.

[showcase4]

Showcase,

 

As for your comments re price, personally I think the 6600 is a somewhat weak (but not terrible) result as compared to the 20k (no offense). I don't think for a minute that you can apply the overstreet multiples on an item like this, so to me the fair @6600 = vg@20000 doesn't hold any water whatsoever. I would expect an very compact set of grade/price multiples for this item. People who want a copy will I think be relatively very accepting of condition flaws given the antiquity of the item and the likely impossibility of getting a NM example. The mint freaks who drive the grade/price curve aren't at play here.

 

the logic behind this comparison is undisputable.....you are the only one so far that disagreed with the price comparison of a Fair to a VG. Just because a comic book is very old, does not mean that condition doesn't matter....condition is EVERYTHING with all collectibles, including Obadiah Oldbuck and other comic books from the period

[Bronty]

I disagree with that. Condition matters, of course, but to different degrees in different hobbies, and you can take that to the bank.

[esquirecomics]

Yeah, I hear you. Just a snide remark on my part, really.. couldn't resist as I just can't get excited about OO on any level.

 

Perfectly understandable.......Victorian and Platinum Age books are a niche....not mainstream. That's the beauty of our great hobby....so many different areas to dive in to. I used to collect high grade Silver, and the Vic/Plat market I now focus on is very, very different. I went from 9.4's to hoping the cover is still attached.

 

Both views are perfectly understandable and should be acceptable to everyone. If anything that is the message of this thread, IMHO.

[esquirecomics]

Did you get the e-mail from ebay on that recent Red Iceberg auction?

 

Yes, I did! What was up with that? I always buy copies of Red Iceberg when I see them.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I would actually prefer prices of most all comic books to go down in price so i can afford to collect more, buy them cheaper, etc - but that is just my little secret, don't tell any one

 

Now there is something I would have to agree with you 100% on!!!

 

Actually, bill, we agree on more than we disagree on, methinks

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Up until 1998 OO was pretty not much on the radar of any comic book collector, i can count on a hand or two of the people i now know knew of it back then. So, its existence in comics fandom has been well known for a decade now, to those who bothered to read the history lessons every year, as new data has kept surfacing.

 

 

But how long have people been searching it out as an item they can flip quickly for a big profit? That's what drives copies out of the woodwork, and I would suggest that most of comics fandom does *still* not recognize it as a money book. You get 50,000 would be profiteers on the trail, like with action 1, and then we'll know how many there *really* are, although common sense suggests it will probably still be quite a low #.

 

in all honesty, any of this stuff becoming a "big money" book is not what drives me any more in this hobby -

 

I USED to be that way, in fact, setting the world's record for selling the most valuable comic book a couple times, being the first person to sell a comic book for more than two grand with Whiz 2 #1) Tom Reilly bringing two grand even from Burl Rowe (Houston) and Detective 27 for $2200 a couple weeks later, back in May/June 1973 and then selling a Marvel (Mystery) #1 Oct 1939 version for $8K in the late 70s, then a world's record for a while

 

I was in the middle of pioneering comic book speculation concepts, having some 85,000 John Byrne Xmen comic books, mostly destroyed in a ware house flood in Feb 1986 when a million comic books, half a million baseball cards, 10,000 rock posters, and tons other stuff mostly destroyed, turned into paper mache bricks

 

By the mid 1990s my focus turned to documenting the comics business and began researching all things comic book business history, and a few years after that John Snyder asked me to begin sharing that research with fandom at large

 

I know ll about the "woodwork" of the high prices comic books can bring, and also wise enough to know that the high end of the market has left me behind on many levels as one needs big piles of cash to play that game

 

I honestly do not care if prices rise on the early stuff - that will come thru no machinations on my part - if the material is good, and people agree, and begin looking for it

 

that is up to the individual collector as to what he wants to do

 

me, like i stress, am after the history of how it came about, where it came from, and where it went - and unraveling this history is simply fun for me - pure & simple

 

in the meantime, i make my living buying 7 selling comic books and related material - a hobby that got out of hand many moons ago

[Bronty]

Bob,

 

I know a lot of people on this thread have said that you're promoting the early stuff for selfish reasons, but I'm not one of those people. I'm just making the point that the big bucks and the big collector interest bring items out of hiding, so who knows about OO #s. Not at all saying that "big money" drives you... just saying that it drives material being discovered.

[ciorac]

I would actually prefer prices of most all comic books to go down in price so i can afford to collect more, buy them cheaper, etc - but that is just my little secret, don't tell any one

 

Now there is something I would have to agree with you 100% on!!!

 

Actually, bill, we agree on more than we disagree on, methinks

 

I know Bob, but it is still fun to you once in a while!

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob,

 

I know a lot of people on this thread have said that you're promoting the early stuff for selfish reasons, but I'm not one of those people. I'm just making the point that the big bucks and the big collector interest bring items out of hiding, so who knows about OO #s. Not at all saying that "big money" drives you... just saying that it drives material being discovered.

 

oh, i knew that, and i began meandering over to the previous shouts & giggles on that subject, and it came back out tonight - i took no offense, and none was given either.

 

I also knew that you were focusing in on collector interest building price point pressure due to such a small supply of the 1842 first prints to me, wonder of wonders in the comic book world of America, such a long rich varied bountiful long history and i fully agree - if that was not evident previously (it might not have been), please note here that i agree fully with you you there too

 

so my mind jumped without writing to what i just did

 

I am in constant wonder of amazement the resistance from certain quarters of fandom to the logical extension of a rich heritage with 100s of genius creators drawing up a storm, geniuses in each generation who taught in turn the Next Generation and this went on, has gone on, is still going on, passing on the knowledge of the previous generations

 

Outcault, Swinnerton, Dirks, McManus, McCay, Herriman, Fisher, etc etc would have been studying the previous generation of Opper, Cox, Frost, Sullivant, Keppler, etc etc who in turn learned from Frank Bellew Sr who began doing comic strips in 1853 and Thomas Nast soon thereafter among many others. Nast created comic strips in the beginning of his career, i have seen several now, and they are fun to read - but he went editorial cartoonist doing loaded single panels, becoming late in life Ambassador to Ecuador, dying there of some exotic disease in 1902. His nephew in law James Parton wrote the first comics history book in the USA CARICATURE AND OTHER COMIC ART in 1877 - a rich green hard cover wonder to obtain & read thru for perspective attitudes towards the art form - the chapter on the friendship between Ben Franklin and the Englishman editorial cartoonist super star of his day, Hogarth, is worth the price alone.

 

like, how do you spell Caniff, Foster & Raymond having such an obvious effect on Simon & Kirby, Shuster, Cole, Moldoff, Kurtzman, Barks, (lots of Foster inspirations in style, but his work was always original his) and the 100s of other creators who toiled in the trenches all their lives

 

and the USA generation of Bellew & Nast would have seen Topffer's Obadiah Oldbuck 1842 Bachelors Own book 1845 by Cruikshank, and the 2nd Topffer English language offering Bachelor Butterfly 1845, JOURNEY TO THE GOLD DIGGINGS BY JEREMIAH SADDLEBAGS, America's first home grown comic book in 1849 among lots of other ones in the 1850s and onwards over the decades.

 

This is how i see the evolution of the comic strip as growing in America, some of the big picture influences - i hope this makes sense to ya'll. This is microcosm in the big pond i have studied now over 164 years worth of the history.

 

I did not start this thread, nor did i know about it raging onwards going at Showcase as well as ad hominem attacks upon my "flawed" research (one writer wrote) for almost two months before i came up here to clarify the history, methods of research, potential uniform terminology - not to ponder how much any comic book is worth and going big bucks. I leave that for the Next Generation to ponder.

 

Been there, done that - got the t-shirt, next

 

Now i prefer to study the history, write down what i learn to pass on the collective comic book hive on into Next Generations and trust a majority will be a receptive audience, but in the meantime i have to sell some comic books as i have been doing for 40 years now next month in October, my first ad ran in RBCC 47 Oct 1966, and have been working on a new 9 page list of stuff i have picked up. I need to do some key research in Massachusetts next month and need to be gone on the road there for a couple weeks, plane ticket bought, etc -

 

After mercantiling for world's record prices with various major aspects of the Tom Reilly collection back in the 1970s and the ensuing media coverage, parlaying my hard-earned wisdom of what is rare scarce common warehouse find books, my interest is in learning new to me areas of the comics world. Nothing left for me to learn about the 1930s up except kibbles & bits - the big stuff heavy lifting is pretty much done - i need to be able to sit down for a year and finish my book, with small slivers coming out in various journals and the PG this past decade.

 

People ask me all the time when is it coming out.

 

Well, was doing a lot of comicons, to provided a much needed revenue stream to conduct the research, and due to a van i was riding in in 1973 with Bud Plant, Terry Stroud and Swan getting totalled, body damaged, immortalized in BETWEEN THE PANELS (Dark Horse) arthritis catching up the last few years due to the car accident trauma of youth back in 1973 following Houstoncon there, on way to Dallascon the following weekend before Seuling's NYC comicon extravaganza the following week end

 

As long as Steve, John and Bob are receptive to the the section growing there like it has been steadily for a decade now, documenting our collective national heritage - the foundation of our comics house is laid on many more generations than some wish to bestow.

 

I say fine to what any of you think or choose to believe re the history of our fine medium.

 

I encourage those of you in the next generation to take up the research mantel, but understand the comic book, like many other wondrous creations of humans, were imported from the cultures of the other side of the Atlantic, roots took hold, seeds planted, and success of popular presentations evolved over 164 years.

 

A majority of people do not have to like every aspect of comics, nor should any one be required to even want to look at any given aspect of the comics world

 

It further legitimizes the concept of not being a recent phenomena fad - comics have been collected for generations - sometimes the wall paper in kids rooms to grow up on way back when - think about that for a moment and i will most likely be back up here down the road a spec

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

I know Bob, but it is still fun to you once in a while!

 

and likewise, and would love to sell you my un-restored decent copy of AA 19 furthering my ability to get my history book done - i'll even reduce the price

 

and in the meantime, the bantering about old comics here is a mostly welcome respite

 

I look at the Gulf Coast, Fema style promises made, and i went thru the first Fema disaster house call they ever made to all of northern California back in Feb 1986 -

 

did i want to sell my OOs, and other treasures over the years, nope, of course not, as i had built my comics company to have about 80% of all comic books published from 1933 up, every Marvel and DC from 1960 constantly stocked in depth with at least a dozen FF #1 at any one time

 

i will never get back to where i was, and i know i have generated some animosity due to conservative lack of wanting to see proper changes to the evolutionary concepts of where the comic book came form - i truly do not see why there is resistance to Spock Logic (a term i have been using for some time) examination of the facts of a 164 year old comic book business in America.

 

And the passion of interest in having a well ordered comics universe is unsettling to some when that apple cart gets shaken a bit - but my view is the universe is an expanding one - and some times the DNA info got lost - and science comes into get the time line correct once again

 

I have been simply building the history archeology engaged by previous generations - as reading fine classic comics is a decent way to leave something behind - and interpreting the sometimes in new views of how it came about.

 

I first learned that history is sometimes skewed over generations when i learned Custer's mission was Indian genocide - Custer's Last Stand was taught differently when i was younger

[rjpb]

Did you get the e-mail from ebay on that recent Red Iceberg auction?

 

Yes, I did! What was up with that? I always buy copies of Red Iceberg when I see them.

 

Seemed like it was a highjacked account, hard to believe for a $50 item.

 

It seems like for a "rare" book, it shows up on ebay fairly often of late - and sometimes in very nice shape - usually from sellers in the midwest - I wonder if there was a fairly recent find that ended up getting sold initially through antique stores instead of comic venues.

[esquirecomics]

Did you get the e-mail from ebay on that recent Red Iceberg auction?

 

Yes, I did! What was up with that? I always buy copies of Red Iceberg when I see them.

 

Seemed like it was a highjacked account, hard to believe for a $50 item.

 

I was skeptical of the fact the seller had zero or very little feedback but I wasn't going to spend a great deal of money on it.

 

It seems like for a "rare" book, it shows up on ebay fairly often of late - and sometimes in very nice shape - usually from sellers in the midwest - I wonder if there was a fairly recent find that ended up getting sold initially through antique stores instead of comic venues.

 

Some of us have noticed that as well, and it is typically the Impact Press variant and not the others.