Stan and Jack at their worst

[uclapeterg]

I think that Chic Stone's inking of Jack's art was painful to the eye. If you look at the basic layout development of the FF.....I personally think Joe Sinnott's inking challenged Jack to put more into his pencils and layouts and they made each other better.

 

Take a look at the interior art for FF 35.....and then go look at the art for FF 45. It's like two different artists did the work.

 

Red

 

Who was the inker on FF 39? I agree. The 40's is when FF really started to shine.

[uclapeterg]

I wish someone else inked 25 and 26. Terrible work...

 

FF 40 stands out to me for its gawd-awful pencils and inking. Just plain bad.

 

Hey, you sold me that issue!

[jimjum12]

I think that Chic Stone's inking of Jack's art was painful to the eye. If you look at the basic layout development of the FF.....I personally think Joe Sinnott's inking challenged Jack to put more into his pencils and layouts and they made each other better.

 

Take a look at the interior art for FF 35.....and then go look at the art for FF 45. It's like two different artists did the work.

 

Red

 

Who was the inker on FF 39? I agree. The 40's is when FF really started to shine.

 

I'm pretty sure FF 39 was Frank Giacoia(sp?).Marvel seemed to have a pattern of giving a new Kirby inker a cover to do first ,and I am almost certain that Frank's first FF work was actually the cover to FF 35.The holding lines(outlines)are DEFINITELY not Chic Stone.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Red Hook]

If you've ever taken a close look at the work that Joe Sinnott inked AND penciled...(Journey into Mystery era Thor, and some pre-hero stories..the facial features look just like the best of his work with Jack. It's a little bit more formal and it certainly doesn't have the Kirby dynamism......but I really think Joe contributed so much more to the best FF art than the average inker did.

 

I like to think that Jack saw how great his pencils looked when Joe inked them, and raised his game with the pencils he knew Joe would be inking.....

 

 

I do like to think that.

[jimjum12]

Sinnott was DEFINITLY a first class artist in his own right.I think your assessment of the synergy(and inspiration)that existed between Jack and Joe worked for the greater benefit of us all.Another inker whose solo work was very crisp and often overlooked was Paul Reinman.His Atlas and Pre-hero work was exremely well crafted.GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Comcasthawk]

I thought FF 27 had a great cover and interior art.

[Sharkey]

I think that Chic Stone's inking of Jack's art was painful to the eye. If you look at the basic layout development of the FF.....I personally think Joe Sinnott's inking challenged Jack to put more into his pencils and layouts and they made each other better.

 

Take a look at the interior art for FF 35.....and then go look at the art for FF 45. It's like two different artists did the work.

 

Red

 

Who was the inker on FF 39? I agree. The 40's is when FF really started to shine.

 

FF 39 was inked by Frankie Ray (Frank Giacoia), whereas 40 was inked by Vince Colleta. I thought 40 was considerably better than some of the earlier issues. There's no doubt that Sinnott ushered in a whole new era when he started with issue 44 -- the difference is staggering.

 

As far as the earlier comments about Chic Stone, he did a nice job on Kirby's early Thors, imho. Far better than Coletta who would leave all sorts of stuff out. Though, like a lot of the early material, it was rushed both in the pencil and inking stage, and it shows. During those later years of FF where Kirby and Sinnott worked together, Jack was no longer doing practically every book Marvel was putting out the way he was in 1963 - 65. It allowed him time to evolve his style. How much Sinnott's inking style affected that is unclear, but they were truly an exceptional team and both contributed significantly, much like Kirby and Lee together put out much better stuff than apart. If you look at Kirby's pencils over time his style evolved by leaps and bounds during that period and it likely is due to his collaborations with more gifted inkers (like Red surmises) as well as having more time to devote to the books.

 

One more comment: regarding the early Strange Tales, Jack and Stan only worked together on a few issues. Larry Leiber, Stan's brother, started writing them (or maybe Stan would give a rough idea and Larry would complete it) but regardless he was terrible at plotting and writing dialog. The issues are downright painful to read. Then throw in the fact that Jack was contributing less and less (doing "layouts" which who knows how much he actually contributed to the final process) and you have some of the worst stuff of the early Marvel Silver Age.

[KingOfRulers]

I agree that Kirby got worse into the 1970's. I don't really dislike any of his work from the 60's. Stan's on the other hand...he had some bombs. His writing in the early FF's and X-men were terrible, with FF being the single worst.

[rjpb]

I have to agree with the negative views on much of the writing and inking in early FFs - one of my rationals for selling off my FFs 1-30 (missing 3-5,12,17) was that while the later Lee/Kirby issues had cost me $5-$20 apiece for VG-VF copies (except 48-50), I was paying considerably more for creatively inferior earlier issues that I can now read in their entirety in the FF Omnibus.

[Fan4Fan]

Personally, I've always liked the FF #31 cover and to my (untrained) eye, I often wonder whether Wally Wood had any inking input on Sue on that cover... just looks sort of Wood-esque to me.

 

[That Ron Dude]

I always thought that the Mole Man figure had hints of Wood in it, especially in the two sided lighting. Kirby used two sided lighting occasionially but Wood was the master of it. Here, I think, Kirby is doing it a bit better than usual.

 

Obviously, Kirby's FF doesn't have the polish in the early issues that Sinnott gave it later on. I think that most who love Kirby's work feel that way not for the surface texture but for his story telling and inventiveness. He was very strong in the FF from the earliest issues up until, perhaps, the early 60's, after which the panels became large, the stories became silly (with the occasional touch of excellence) and the characters became repetitive.

 

I initially read the earliest issues through Marvel Collectors Item Classics and loved them. I still remember reading FF#2 in MCIC #1 and copying the drawings. Some of the early inking was out and out bad but it still doesn't dampen my interest in the story or in Kirby's work.

 

The early issues brought us Skrulls, SubMariner, Dr.Doom, Puppet Master, Impossible Man, Super-Skrull, Mad Thinker, Rama Tut, Red Ghost-- each one a home run! Even Willy Lumpken was a double! These characters have stayed around for forty years!

 

He was at his worst near the end. The story goes that he worked faster to get more pages done and it shows in the lack of detail. I think he lost the balance between realistic illustration and cartooning. It could also be that he didn't have a good editor pointing him in the right direction. Royer was the slickest inker he ever had but he lacked the subtlety of Sinnott, deciding to merely trace the lines.

 

Anyway, if I want a beautiful line I will look to Williamson or Adams. But for energy and inventiveness there is no one like Kirby in his prime. Ink him with a Q-Tip and he'll still be good.

[Fan4Fan]

I actually enjoyed a lot of the Kirby/Lee output from the 90-97 or so.... since it was largely a riff on the B-movies (gangsters, gladiatorial games, haunted houses, creature from the black lagoon, etc.) that I watched on TV during Saturday matinees.

[Monstro]

can anyone do a break down on the FF as far as what is good and what is not?

for example 1-20 is all good stuff, 20-35 was lame, they really hit there stride.........etc.?

[topofthetotem]

 

Anyway, if I want a beautiful line I will look to Williamson or Adams. But for energy and inventiveness there is no one like Kirby in his prime. Ink him with a Q-Tip and he'll still be good.

I 15000000000% agree with you!

[mica]

can anyone do a break down on the FF as far as what is good and what is not?

for example 1-20 is all good stuff, 20-35 was lame, they really hit there stride.........etc.?

I'm not a good unbiased person to ask since I love the first 300 or so FF, but a lot of people might say stay away from FF # 11.

 

FF 11 was divided into two small stories, the first one being the first appearance of impossible man. A lame shape shifter that looked cartoonish. The second part of the book was about the FF reading their fan mail.

 

The FF 20's are good stories but the art often suffered due to the inking of Geo Bell (see my previous posts in this thread).

 

And make sure you read FF Annual # 3 in-between FF 43 and 44 because Reed and Sue get married.

 

After issue 100 it takes the FF a little while to get back in the groove, and there are hiccups every now and then. FF 198, 199, and 200 rock.

[JuliusSeizure]

can anyone do a break down on the FF as far as what is good and what is not?

for example 1-20 is all good stuff, 20-35 was lame, they really hit there stride.........etc.?

 

I would say the first 38 issues are somewhat above standard early SA fare in their inventiveness and sophistication; mind you, I have not read all these issues as my collection starts at 31 and I've read a handful of reprints from before that.

 

#39-67, IMO, represents Stan and Jack's heyday, and one of the great runs of all time. This was the run that seeded the Marvel Universe with many of the characters and concepts that made it such a cool place to escape to.

 

After this, Stan and Jack start running out of steam. #68-70 is a rehash of the 'Mind-controlled Thing turns against the FF' story done (better) in #41-43. #74-77 is a sequel to the Galactus/Silver Surfer story in #48-50 and, like most sequels, is weak in comparison. After this, they're clearly running on fumes and you can tell. The stories are less innovative, no new characters are introduced, the panel count shrinks, and things limp along badly to #100. It's like nobody's really trying too hard.

 

The early 100s are OK, but not great, until Roy Thomas shows up around #158 or so. #158-183 are the most fun issues since the glory days of #39-67, then it starts to slog a bit, although the 'Son of Doctor Doom' storyline in #195-200 is quite good. The Skrulls/Xandar/Galactus arc from #204-214 is stylish but loaded with plot holes. From this point until Byrne shows up is nearly unreadable, one of the worst stretches of the title, again, IMO.

 

Even Byrne takes awhile to find his legs on the title (although #236 is a classic issue). I guess about #242 (Terrax/Galactus) is where things get rolling; I find the exploration of the Negative Zone in #251-256 kinda boring, although I haven't read those issues in awhile and may need to give them another chance. #257 through to Byrne's departure (#293, although the very good story in that issue continues till 295) are, to me, the Third Era of Greatness on the title.

 

The Engelhart issues in the early #300s are quite good also (hey, it's Engelhart), although I don't think the lineup experiment around that time worked at all. There's a coda to Secret Wars in #314-319 that blew my mind when I read it off the racks as a teen. My collection tapers off from there.

[That Ron Dude]

I have them all and here is a brief breakdown, along with a caveat.

 

The caveat-- They aint Shakespeare. They aren't even Allan Moore at his best. They are, however, brilliant comics for older children. They are without equal in their creativity. It is incredible that Stan and Jack turned out one of these every month (along with everything else they were doing). Most writers or artists would hope to have one character of the stature of "Red Ghost" on their resume over a career. Stan and Jack had dozens and dozens of such characters from the FF comics alone.

 

Issues 1-10 are sophisticated childrens comics for the early '60's. Thrill to the creation of an array of characters that will fuel the Marvel Universe for 45 years. Mole-man, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Torch, Skrulls, Baxter Building, Fantastic Car, Sub-Mariner, Doctor Doom, Stan and Jack as characters in their own comic, Puppet Master, Alicia Masters, Klurgo, all came out in less than a year.

 

Issues 10-20 lack the character creation that is omnipresent in the first issues but we get Rama-Tut as a play on Doctor Doom, SuperScrull as a play on the Skrulls, Hulk, Ant-man, reprise of Doctor Doom and Submariner, the quirky issue #11 with Impossible Man and WIlly Lumpken, Mad Thinker and his Android, Red Ghost and his Super Apes and great story telling. I reread these in the Marvel Masterworks and I was astounded by their quality.

 

Issues 21-30 includes the memorable Hulk vs. Thing issues, the Hate Monger with Sgt. Fury, guest spot for Dr. Strange and guest spot for X-Men. It was the world's greatest comic magazine and they were promoting their new characters in it. The book was established, risk and creativity were on decline but the stories and characterization was on the way up.

 

Issues 31-39 is similar in that they are great but somewhat repetive from the early issues. This is when I got into them as a child, with the Mole Man issue (#31) which I bought off the stands. I promise you, they were the best reads in comics at the time, and worth all twelve of the cents that I paid for each one.

 

Who know what happened starting with issue 39? Between that issue with Dr.Doom and Daredevil and about issue #60 there is a level of creativity on par with the first 10 issues coupled with a new sophistication in art work, not just produced by Joe Sinnott's inking but by Kirby's use of action, costuming and backgrounds. Stan Lees stories were longer and grander. Gone were villians. In their place were life forces who were ambiguous in their goodness/badness. We got Silver Surfer, Galactus, Inhumans, Black Panther, the guy who turned himself into the thing, Him (he may have come a bit later but similar theme) and the memorable throw away Prester John. These are the best childrens hero comics ever made. They are on par with the best young adult literature. They are as good as Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes or the Shadow.

 

Issues 60-102 are sad. The story goes that Roz told Jack to stop making characters for Marvel while getting little in return. Draw the comics, take the page rate, but don't come up with any new characters. New characters created at the time were put aside for DC and the fourth world several years later. "Skrull takes a Slave" and the "Doctor Doom fights FF" were highlights in a dismal run.

 

Issues 102 to about 218 when John Byrne started, suck. They are unreadable. They lack life. They are recycled stories. They only have a thin patina of what Stan and Jack gave to the FF. They are running on inertia and don't have much of that left.

 

Issues 218 (about) to issue 300 or whenever it was that John Byrne left-- He brought back what Stan and Jack gave the FF. His stories were charming, his characters were alive. He stood on Stan and Jack's shoulders and instead of reinventing them he once again gave us a good approximation of the characters and villians of the early sixties.

 

Issues 300 (about) to 350 (about)-- I am in a fog on these. Could it be early onset senility on my part? Could it be that the stories were so lack lustre that I don't remember one thing about them though I have read them? Let's go for the latter.

 

Issue 350-400. The stories and art were pretty good and a little different from what Stan/Jack and Byrne were giving us. The third best run.

 

Issues 400 to about 417-- Nice production values. They tried to give us something that looked good. By this time storytelling was secondary and flash was the attraction. They were flashy and a step above the average comic that Marvel was producing. I enjoyed reading them. But, quite honestly, all that comes up in my mind concerning them are the beautiful covers. If I was offered an FF#1 in 9.8 to describe the plot of even one of them from memory I would go away with nothing.

 

I hope this is of some help. If not I have enjoyed being self-indulgent about I comic that I love more than any other.

 

Ron

[Fan4Fan]

Issues 60-102 are sad. The story goes that Roz told Jack to stop making characters for Marvel while getting little in return. Draw the comics, take the page rate, but don't come up with any new characters. New characters created at the time were put aside for DC and the fourth world several years later. "Skrull takes a Slave" and the "Doctor Doom fights FF" were highlights in a dismal run.

 

 

Granted, there is a lot to not like here, but 61-63 is a nice arc, as is 90-93.

 

Issues 102 to about 218 when John Byrne started, suck. They are unreadable. They lack life. They are recycled stories. They only have a thin patina of what Stan and Jack gave to the FF. They are running on inertia and don't have much of that left.

 

 

It may not be Stan and Jack, but I got hooked with 140 and found few dull moments until after 200.

 

Issues 218 (about) to issue 300 or whenever it was that John Byrne left-- He brought back what Stan and Jack gave the FF. His stories were charming, his characters were alive. He stood on Stan and Jack's shoulders and instead of reinventing them he once again gave us a good approximation of the characters and villians of the early sixties.

 

 

Byrne was so "charming" (IMHO) that I found his coming onboard to be a good time for me to stop collecting FF.

[Monstro]

I have them all and here is a brief breakdown, along with a caveat.

 

The caveat-- They aint Shakespeare. They aren't even Allan Moore at his best. They are, however, brilliant comics for older children. They are without equal in their creativity. It is incredible that Stan and Jack turned out one of these every month (along with everything else they were doing). Most writers or artists would hope to have one character of the stature of "Red Ghost" on their resume over a career. Stan and Jack had dozens and dozens of such characters from the FF comics alone.

 

Issues 1-10 are sophisticated childrens comics for the early '60's. Thrill to the creation of an array of characters that will fuel the Marvel Universe for 45 years. Mole-man, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Torch, Skrulls, Baxter Building, Fantastic Car, Sub-Mariner, Doctor Doom, Stan and Jack as characters in their own comic, Puppet Master, Alicia Masters, Klurgo, all came out in less than a year.

 

Issues 10-20 lack the character creation that is omnipresent in the first issues but we get Rama-Tut as a play on Doctor Doom, SuperScrull as a play on the Skrulls, Hulk, Ant-man, reprise of Doctor Doom and Submariner, the quirky issue #11 with Impossible Man and WIlly Lumpken, Mad Thinker and his Android, Red Ghost and his Super Apes and great story telling. I reread these in the Marvel Masterworks and I was astounded by their quality.

 

Issues 21-30 includes the memorable Hulk vs. Thing issues, the Hate Monger with Sgt. Fury, guest spot for Dr. Strange and guest spot for X-Men. It was the world's greatest comic magazine and they were promoting their new characters in it. The book was established, risk and creativity were on decline but the stories and characterization was on the way up.

 

Issues 31-39 is similar in that they are great but somewhat repetive from the early issues. This is when I got into them as a child, with the Mole Man issue (#31) which I bought off the stands. I promise you, they were the best reads in comics at the time, and worth all twelve of the cents that I paid for each one.

 

Who know what happened starting with issue 39? Between that issue with Dr.Doom and Daredevil and about issue #60 there is a level of creativity on par with the first 10 issues coupled with a new sophistication in art work, not just produced by Joe Sinnott's inking but by Kirby's use of action, costuming and backgrounds. Stan Lees stories were longer and grander. Gone were villians. In their place were life forces who were ambiguous in their goodness/badness. We got Silver Surfer, Galactus, Inhumans, Black Panther, the guy who turned himself into the thing, Him (he may have come a bit later but similar theme) and the memorable throw away Prester John. These are the best childrens hero comics ever made. They are on par with the best young adult literature. They are as good as Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes or the Shadow.

 

Issues 60-102 are sad. The story goes that Roz told Jack to stop making characters for Marvel while getting little in return. Draw the comics, take the page rate, but don't come up with any new characters. New characters created at the time were put aside for DC and the fourth world several years later. "Skrull takes a Slave" and the "Doctor Doom fights FF" were highlights in a dismal run.

 

Issues 102 to about 218 when John Byrne started, suck. They are unreadable. They lack life. They are recycled stories. They only have a thin patina of what Stan and Jack gave to the FF. They are running on inertia and don't have much of that left.

 

Issues 218 (about) to issue 300 or whenever it was that John Byrne left-- He brought back what Stan and Jack gave the FF. His stories were charming, his characters were alive. He stood on Stan and Jack's shoulders and instead of reinventing them he once again gave us a good approximation of the characters and villians of the early sixties.

 

Issues 300 (about) to 350 (about)-- I am in a fog on these. Could it be early onset senility on my part? Could it be that the stories were so lack lustre that I don't remember one thing about them though I have read them? Let's go for the latter.

 

Issue 350-400. The stories and art were pretty good and a little different from what Stan/Jack and Byrne were giving us. The third best run.

 

Issues 400 to about 417-- Nice production values. They tried to give us something that looked good. By this time storytelling was secondary and flash was the attraction. They were flashy and a step above the average comic that Marvel was producing. I enjoyed reading them. But, quite honestly, all that comes up in my mind concerning them are the beautiful covers. If I was offered an FF#1 in 9.8 to describe the plot of even one of them from memory I would go away with nothing.

 

I hope this is of some help. If not I have enjoyed being self-indulgent about I comic that I love more than any other.

 

Ron

 

 

wow that was a great break down. thank you

it's interesting reading all this as i am in the middle of reading

"tales to astonish" by ronin ro

[Norrin_Radd]

Speaking of Stan and Jack...

 

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