Stan and Jack at their worst

[Sharkey]

Hi Ron, you wrote up a great breakdown.

 

My own opinion of the books includes a few other "notables" and comments below

 

I have them all and here is a brief breakdown, along with a caveat.

 

The caveat-- They aint Shakespeare. They aren't even Allan Moore at his best. They are, however, brilliant comics for older children. They are without equal in their creativity. It is incredible that Stan and Jack turned out one of these every month (along with everything else they were doing). Most writers or artists would hope to have one character of the stature of "Red Ghost" on their resume over a career. Stan and Jack had dozens and dozens of such characters from the FF comics alone.

 

Issues 1-10 are sophisticated childrens comics for the early '60's. Thrill to the creation of an array of characters that will fuel the Marvel Universe for 45 years. Mole-man, Thing, Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Girl, Torch, Skrulls, Baxter Building, Fantastic Car, Sub-Mariner, Doctor Doom, Stan and Jack as characters in their own comic, Puppet Master, Alicia Masters, Klurgo, all came out in less than a year.

 

Issues 10-20 lack the character creation that is omnipresent in the first issues but we get Rama-Tut as a play on Doctor Doom, SuperScrull as a play on the Skrulls, Hulk, Ant-man, reprise of Doctor Doom and Submariner, the quirky issue #11 with Impossible Man and WIlly Lumpken, Mad Thinker and his Android, Red Ghost and his Super Apes and great story telling. I reread these in the Marvel Masterworks and I was astounded by their quality.

 

Issues 21-30 includes the memorable Hulk vs. Thing issues, the Hate Monger with Sgt. Fury, guest spot for Dr. Strange and guest spot for X-Men. It was the world's greatest comic magazine and they were promoting their new characters in it. The book was established, risk and creativity were on decline but the stories and characterization was on the way up.

 

Your assessment of the 20s and early 30s is dead on, especially with the character crossovers. Stan was the master of promotion and he sure took advantage of the ability to do "guest appearances".

 

 

Issues 31-39 is similar in that they are great but somewhat repetive from the early issues. This is when I got into them as a child, with the Mole Man issue (#31) which I bought off the stands. I promise you, they were the best reads in comics at the time, and worth all twelve of the cents that I paid for each one.

 

 

I thought the increase in creativity started with issue 36 -- The Frightful Four story arc which leads into the grand battle in 39-40 are just spectacular stories which I fondly remember to this day.

 

Who know what happened starting with issue 39? Between that issue with Dr.Doom and Daredevil and about issue #60 there is a level of creativity on par with the first 10 issues coupled with a new sophistication in art work, not just produced by Joe Sinnott's inking but by Kirby's use of action, costuming and backgrounds. Stan Lees stories were longer and grander. Gone were villians. In their place were life forces who were ambiguous in their goodness/badness. We got Silver Surfer, Galactus, Inhumans, Black Panther, the guy who turned himself into the thing, Him (he may have come a bit later but similar theme) and the memorable throw away Prester John. These are the best childrens hero comics ever made. They are on par with the best young adult literature. They are as good as Tarzan, Sherlock Holmes or the Shadow.

 

And to think the Inhumans aren't just a single character, they are an entire race that again have been core characters in the Marvel Universe!! Seems to be a common aspect of many FF characters!

 

Issues 60-102 are sad. The story goes that Roz told Jack to stop making characters for Marvel while getting little in return. Draw the comics, take the page rate, but don't come up with any new characters. New characters created at the time were put aside for DC and the fourth world several years later. "Skrull takes a Slave" and the "Doctor Doom fights FF" were highlights in a dismal run.

 

Hmm, I think you're a little harsh on some of this bunch. The run from 61-67 is among my favorites: Sandman, Blastaar, Sentry Sinister, Ronan, and Him! Yowza!!! Oh, and I don't think Jack had stopped making up characters quite yet. Blastaar to me seems quintessentially Kirby-esque!

 

One of my favorite "late run" stories is FF 94 -- where the Frightful Four try to attack Agatha Harkness' mansion. Great story, great art, highly entertaining. A gem among some of the lesser stories of the time.

 

Great discussion of a great comic!!!

[rodan57]

Issues 31-39 is similar in that they are great but somewhat repetive from the early issues. This is when I got into them as a child, with the Mole Man issue (#31) which I bought off the stands. I promise you, they were the best reads in comics at the time, and worth all twelve of the cents that I paid for each one.

 

I thought the increase in creativity started with issue 36 -- The Frightful Four story arc which leads into the grand battle in 39-40 are just spectacular stories which I fondly remember to this day.

 

I thought I'd scroll down a bit more before responding to Ron's thoughtful posting. I am going to say almost the same thing as Rhino. I have always felt that the FF 'in all their glory' began with #35 --action, characterization, quirks and sub-plots galore.

 

Dennis

 

p.s. ...and this is in spite of the fact that I find the Dragon Man to be somewhat of an embarrassing character.

[mica]

p.s. ...and this is in spite of the fact that I find the Dragon Man to be somewhat of an embarrassing character.

Fortunately Kirby put little short pants on him.

[That Ron Dude]

One outstanding story, late in the Kirby run was the four issue, "The Skrull takes a Slave", guest starring Torgo (if my memory serves me well), the toughest slave in all the galaxy and a characiture of Edward G. Robinson who, I believe, was one of Kirby's homies in the Jewish ghetto in which he was brought up.

 

I understand that this story was largely derived from a Star Trek episode which I remain unfamiliar with. Still, I love this story as much as any FF story.

 

I loved so much of the Stan and Jack stuff that it has been hard to point out the worst of their collaborations. But for worst FF story I respectfully nominate the "Creature from the Black Lagoon" story, done very late in their run.

 

Any other nominations?

[Fan4Fan]

One outstanding story, late in the Kirby run was the four issue, "The Skrull takes a Slave", guest starring Torgo (if my memory serves me well), the toughest slave in all the galaxy and a characiture of Edward G. Robinson who, I believe, was one of Kirby's homies in the Jewish ghetto in which he was brought up.

 

I understand that this story was largely derived from a Star Trek episode which I remain unfamiliar with. Still, I love this story as much as any FF story.

 

A Piece of the Action

 

But for worst FF story I respectfully nominate the "Creature from the Black Lagoon" story, done very late in their run.

 

 

Not the greatest story to be sure, but as a fan of the "Creature from the Black Lagoon" movies I'd have to say this was a great tribute and certainly not the worst story.

[JuliusSeizure]

One outstanding story, late in the Kirby run was the four issue, "The Skrull takes a Slave", guest starring Torgo (if my memory serves me well), the toughest slave in all the galaxy and a characiture of Edward G. Robinson who, I believe, was one of Kirby's homies in the Jewish ghetto in which he was brought up.

 

I understand that this story was largely derived from a Star Trek episode which I remain unfamiliar with. Still, I love this story as much as any FF story.

 

I loved so much of the Stan and Jack stuff that it has been hard to point out the worst of their collaborations. But for worst FF story I respectfully nominate the "Creature from the Black Lagoon" story, done very late in their run.

 

Any other nominations?

"A House There Was" (#88-89). Crystal's initiation in #81 is all very pointless - they took a whole issue to do what would have been done in 3 pages back when the creativity was pumping.

 

Even FF #100 is all set piece with the barest threads of a plot. It's the literary equivalent of a McDonald's hamburger. I'm glad I didn't pay a whole lot for my copy.

[selegue]

 

Even FF #100 is all set piece with the barest threads of a plot. It's the literary equivalent of a McDonald's hamburger. I'm glad I didn't pay a whole lot for my copy.

 

Exactly my dividing line!

I paid 12¢ for #100 in 1970, $1 for 101 (some time after 1995).

 

I have to agree that 35 was the transition from very good to great. Some of the full-page panels in that issue are terrific. But what the heck was Medusa's hair hanging from on #36's cover, and the Thing looks like a squished bug on #38's.

 

Jack