Stan Lee and the Rise and Fall of the American Comic Book

[Dick Pontoon]

I thought it was a very good read, more analytical than 'Tales to Astonish' by Ro. The authors seemed to have done their homework in checking out Stan's Lee's memory of events. The description of the Atlas years was a bit confusing -- but then again so were the years. I'd like to find a more detailed account of Kirby's and Ditko's beginnings at Atlas/Marvel.

 

The Ro book was a letdown. I wasn't very far into it before I realized his research seemed to consist of just cobbling things together and not checking facts - he certainly didn't check out Jack's memory of events, often just quoting or paraphrasing from previously published interviews.

 

The author also made major factual goofs, such as attributing the Godzilla series to Daiei and not Toho Studios. If he got that wrong, how many other mistakes or false premises did he make?

 

I doubt if much about Ditko's early years will come to light, but we Kirby fans can hold out for Mark Evanier's exhaustive biography, to be finished someday.

[OldGuy]

Huh? How old are you, 3?

 

JC...I must admit that I usually find your unprovoked, smart- posts like the one above very amusing and one of the more entertaining aspects of this board. You always shoot from the hip and seem to have no trouble putting into words the negative or mocking thoughts many of us have when someone posts something we think is foolish or naive. That being said...I've often wondered if you were like that in real life? I mean, is this just your "online personality" and you are really a nice guy in person? Or, do you actually say stuff like that to your friends, family, co-workers, strangers...etc...?

 

 

If was was this way in real life he'd get his azz kicked every day.

[Silver]

It didn't fall, yet.

 

It fell, and hard - it just hasn't totally died yet.

 

guess I didn't get the memo...

 

Huh? How old are you, 3?

 

Here's an easy way to spell it out to you:

 

The monthly circulation of a very popular Golden Age comic could exceed the ENTIRE Diamond Top 100 Comics List right now, and some like Captain Marvel in his heyday, would come close to matching the Top 300.

 

Do the math.

 

Looking at it from pure circulation numbers you could say it has been falling since the late forties.

 

With that being said, is there a man woman or child that doesn't know what a comic book is today? No. Sure it isn't selling like it used to, but the comic book as a media format is still alive. How could ANY LCS's be in business if it wasn't?

 

As a collectible, do you deny that the hobby isn't strong? If you do, then maybe your the three year old.

[Inhuman Fiend]

If he was this way in real life he'd get his azz kicked every day.

 

...and divorced!

[Flaming_Telepath]

Sure it isn't selling like it used to, but the comic book as a media format is still alive. How could ANY LCS's be in business if it wasn't?

 

As a collectible, do you deny that the hobby isn't strong? If you do, then maybe your the three year old.

 

Your LCS is only still in business because of the other products it sells...the cards, the busts, the DVDs, the TPBs. Comics alone would not pay the rent...but they used to, and not that long ago.

 

So 'strong' is not a word I would use.

 

'Assisted living' is closer to the truth, I'm sad to say.

[Cody_Starbuck]

The monthly circulation of a very popular Golden Age comic could exceed the ENTIRE Diamond Top 100 Comics List right now, and some like Captain Marvel in his heyday, would come close to matching the Top 300.

 

Do the math.

 

Comics back then were returnable. I wonder what the average return rate on comics was in the 50s and 60s.

[october]

Sure it isn't selling like it used to, but the comic book as a media format is still alive. How could ANY LCS's be in business if it wasn't?

 

As a collectible, do you deny that the hobby isn't strong? If you do, then maybe your the three year old.

 

Your LCS is only still in business because of the other products it sells...the cards, the busts, the DVDs, the TPBs. Comics alone would not pay the rent...but they used to, and not that long ago.

 

So 'strong' is not a word I would use.

 

'Assisted living' is closer to the truth, I'm sad to say.

 

He said "deny that the hobby isn't strong". Those tricky double negatives.

[Zonker]

The monthly circulation of a very popular Golden Age comic could exceed the ENTIRE Diamond Top 100 Comics List right now, and some like Captain Marvel in his heyday, would come close to matching the Top 300.

 

Do the math.

 

Comics back then were returnable. I wonder what the average return rate on comics was in the 50s and 60s.

 

The data I've seen is from the Krause Standard Guide, which takes the published Statements of Ownership at face value. While I don't recall 50s/60s data, the late 1960s and early 1970s return rate was about 50%.

[Zonker]

Since it came up is there a website where historical print runs of books can be viewed? I would really like to see how large these seemingly giant print runs of books actually were.

 

The How Many Exist? thread right here on the forums

[skinny_white_boy]

I haven't been constructive for 2800 posts.

 

 

2,833

2860

[ComicSupply]

Sure it isn't selling like it used to, but the comic book as a media format is still alive. How could ANY LCS's be in business if it wasn't?

 

As a collectible, do you deny that the hobby isn't strong? If you do, then maybe your the three year old.

 

Your LCS is only still in business because of the other products it sells...the cards, the busts, the DVDs, the TPBs. Comics alone would not pay the rent...but they used to, and not that long ago.

 

So 'strong' is not a word I would use.

 

'Assisted living' is closer to the truth, I'm sad to say.

 

I have often wondered this.

 

If a comic book store only just sold comics. As in new comics, back issue comics and trades would/could it survive?

 

A lot of the DVD's, the busts the cards all have a cost involved. When the product is old, it is "cold product." The costs involved is just money sitting on a rack gathering dust. Take MTG for instance. The new set is always hot, but what about the older sets? Each one of those packs/boxes was bought and paid for by the owner and now it just sits. Once would rationalize that I already made all my money on the other packs, but what if you didn't buy that extra box or two?

 

If a comic store just bought comics and just sold comics would/could it survive?

 

I would like to think that it could.

[joe_collector]

The monthly circulation of a very popular Golden Age comic could exceed the ENTIRE Diamond Top 100 Comics List right now, and some like Captain Marvel in his heyday, would come close to matching the Top 300.

 

Do the math.

 

Comics back then were returnable. I wonder what the average return rate on comics was in the 50s and 60s.

 

But I am referrring to the paid circulation numbers, not the total print run. I wouldn't want to think about how many millions upon millions were printed back then.

[joe_collector]

If a comic store just bought comics and just sold comics would/could it survive?

 

No way, and I've spoken to a few of my LCS owners about just this thing. It turns out you are mistaken that these guys are holding tons of non-comic backstock. Most operate on a box to box basis on many cards, and during the holidays, they'd have a guy running down to Walmart/Zellers/Kmart/etc. to get refills of hot issues that sold out.

 

Same with hot toys (remember Beyblades?), and they'd have 5-10 guys sitting down at Toys R Us waiting in line for the "2 per Customer" allotments. Comics are also taking up less and less retail space in the stores, and in one, comics are way in the back, in a segregated U-shaped shelving unit.

 

Here's the way the retail environment works whenever I'm there buying supplies/boxes or looking through the TPBs:

 

Lots of kids and parents shopping at the toy/card/action figures/poster areas, not a soul in the comics area. Brisk to moderate sales elsewhere, but no comics activity. Then suddenly a fat nerd with a backpack stumbles in, gets in line, and when he reaches the cash, the clerk slams a a few huge bags/stacks of comics down on the counter. The guys pays, then leaves.

 

Normal business resumes.

 

I often wonder why these stores even put new comics on display, as they seem to exist on subscription sales alone. That must be why the comics area is shrinking, as it seems like a poor use of space.

 

Personally, I don't even think there are "comic stores" anymore, just places that continue to sell comics along with the other toys, action figures, games, card and other multi-media items. And from what I've seen, these guys are hustling to make a buck anyway they can, and the "new comics" area seems to be one of the least profitable.

[That Ron Dude]

The Stan Lee book was excellent. It discussed Lee's limitations as a writer/editor and his human foibles without getting into hatred or cynicism. It also talked about his many attributes. By reading it I knew a lot more about Lee's contribution to comics and his workings within the Silver Age Marvel subculture.

 

"Tales to Astonish" was also good but if I had to compare them, I found it inferior to "RIse and Fall". I thought that the main fault of "Rise and Fall" was that the author liked Jack Kirby too much and seemed to excuse him too readily for his limitations. Still, he gave a great deal of information about Kirby's fall from the peak, around 1970, and I am able to decide myself why the fall took place.

 

I received both books as birthday gifts. They are both excellent reads and worth the money if you've got it.

 

May I ad that Gerard Jones' book on Harry Donenfeld and DC is even better than the aforementioned two. I just finished it and returned it to the library.

[FFB]

Sure it isn't selling like it used to, but the comic book as a media format is still alive. How could ANY LCS's be in business if it wasn't?

 

As a collectible, do you deny that the hobby isn't strong? If you do, then maybe your the three year old.

 

Your LCS is only still in business because of the other products it sells...the cards, the busts, the DVDs, the TPBs. Comics alone would not pay the rent...but they used to, and not that long ago.

 

So 'strong' is not a word I would use.

 

'Assisted living' is closer to the truth, I'm sad to say.

 

I have often wondered this.

 

If a comic book store only just sold comics. As in new comics, back issue comics and trades would/could it survive?

 

A lot of the DVD's, the busts the cards all have a cost involved. When the product is old, it is "cold product." The costs involved is just money sitting on a rack gathering dust. Take MTG for instance. The new set is always hot, but what about the older sets? Each one of those packs/boxes was bought and paid for by the owner and now it just sits. Once would rationalize that I already made all my money on the other packs, but what if you didn't buy that extra box or two?

 

If a comic store just bought comics and just sold comics would/could it survive?

 

I would like to think that it could.

 

My LCS in Santa Clara sells mostly comics (new and used) and TPBs. He has a few other items (a few boxes of cards on the counter and a couple of statues that never seem to sell), but probably 95% of his business is comics. He isn't setting the world on fire in terms of profits, but he seems to do ok and the store has been there for many years. Comic Collector Shop in Mountain View is pretty much the same way and Phil (the owner) seems to do pretty well.

[Aman619]

why should a "comics" store have to only sell comics? The only way that makes sense to state that is to buttress one's arguement that the comics industry is failing. But is it? And where is it written that a comics store must be limited to only selling comics? Name any other type of retail operation that would limit itself to one line of goods?

 

If there is money to nbemade, go for it: tshirts, games, cards, candy books jewelry, paints, model kits etc etc whatever!

[joe_collector]

why should a "comics" store have to only sell comics? The only way that makes sense to state that is to buttress one's arguement that the comics industry is failing. But is it? And where is it written that a comics store must be limited to only selling comics? Name any other type of retail operation that would limit itself to one line of goods?

 

But lots of "comic stores" (note the name) used to exist and ONLY sell comic books. That's the point, these have become a niche item now, and virtually no one is paying the rent selling only comics, like they used to in the 70's, 80's and 90's.

 

The print runs should give you a quick idea why.

[Silver]

My store Alternate Realities in Las Vegas sells pretty much only comics. Sure they have GN's, manga, etc. but they don't sell Magic cards or alot of toys. His bread and butter is comics and he has been there for many years. Another store in Las Vegas that is pure comics is Cosmic Comics on Tropicana Blvd next door to the greatest pinball arcade (150+ vintage machines in a rotating stock of 1000) you could hope to find. He sells only comics and trades GN's etc. His store is at least ten years old. I could go on about several other stores I know in town that have been here a long time. Certainly there are more stores here now than in the 70's when we only had two.

 

Does that mean the comics business is roaring strong, no...but it ain't dead either.

[Aman619]

100 pin machines??

 

whats the name of this magical palace of pin?

[Silver]

100 pin machines??

 

whats the name of this magical palace of pin?

 

Pinball Hall of Fame