So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[Aman619]

give him a call!

 

just dont tell him to read this thread first. : )

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is another thread from the GCD located at www.comics.org

this is part of a longer thread archived at the GCD.

 

 

Jerry Bails wrote:

 

Bill Finger regularly supplied Kane with stills from Doug Fairbanks movies,

books, etc. I saw his rather large collection of such material. The face of

the Joker in Batman #1 came directly from Bill's copy of _The Man Who Laughs_.

At the time of the interview (mid-60s), I assumed that these swipes helped

Kane achieve a more realistic style. Now, I think he simply passed the swipes

along to his ghost.

 

Bob Wood, like many artists effected two styles: one was cartoony, the other

was more after Chester Gould. He used the latter on his heroic strips. Then

the addition of the dark inking style of Robinson & Roussos, and one gets the

Batman of Batman #1.

 

I have never seen Jerry Robinson claim that he pencilled any of Batman #1.

Does he do that some place?

 

When Jerry finally does the entire art on Batman, he has a fully mature style

of his own, and makes no undo attempts to follow the ''Bob Kane'' style

sheet. Of course, he is a brilliant man who learned quickly, so it is possible

that he moved on by 1942 and left others to mimic something he did a couple of

years earlier. However, there is usually some sign of continuity -- some little

thing -- that even a growing, stretching artist like Jerry reveals. One can

see such continuity in the growing skills of Kubert, Krigstein, Gil Kane,

Novick, etc., but I don't see any hint in Jerry's own Batman full art in 1942 that

indicates that he was pencilling Batman #1. He & Inky Roussos simply claimed

to me to be inking. They shared credits that are ''sneaked'' onto the fronts

of buildings.

 

The only place I see the pencils I called ''Bob Kane'' in my youth is on

adventure features pencilled by Bob Wood. No one else is even close.

 

Considering how utterly secretive Kane was about his collaborators, I think

he managed to keep the biggest secret of all. He was not the penciler who set

the style for Batman. All those art changes Bill claims he suggested, like

adding gauntlets with fins, the utility belt, etc. were later additions and

while Kane approved them, I serious question that he drew up the style sheets that

were followed my Lew Schwartz and later Moldoff.

 

----------

 

 

[MF]

 

I'm not an expert on either Kane or Wood styles. I see a consistency in the early, 1936-8, signed by Kane, pre-Moldoff and Robinson. It is fairly evident in the RUSTY, CLIP CARSON, and off-and-on in earliest BATMAN episodes. It's primitive and poorly executed, but there are identifiable tics. The exaggerated square jaw is one, overused but mangled profiles, is another. Kane's staging was terrible.

 

It's throwing out a wild card, but there may be another artist, still unidentified, who was Kane's sometimes ghost. I don't have enough Bob Wood to make a fair judgement on, but get the impression he too had problems at the beginning, and relied on help. I say this, because the stuff that he does at Gleason, say 1943 onward is pretty raw, has it's own look, and has nothing reminiscent of BATMAN. I think some of the 1943-4 BATMAN strips, credited to Kane, are his. The look is there.

 

This all gets messy, because, as pointed out, Kane may later have been aping his own ghost. If there are 1938-40 Bob Wood adventure stories that look like the early BATMAN, I'd be interested to know and see examples. How much of this type did Wood actually do, in that period?

 

 

Mike Feldman

 

 

_______________________________________________

Grand Comic-Book Database Project

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[BLBcomics-migration]

give him a call!

 

just dont tell him to read this thread first. : )

 

better done in person, is how i do these things

 

you got his phone number?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is something from Mike Catron over at the GCD which i direct readers to go check out, scroll down the page to see where swipes originated re Batman in Tec 27 and 33

 

http://henryvallely.blogspot.com/

 

Go check out the side by side art examples:

 

Gang Busters! (Secret Origins of Batman Part 1)

 

My first encounter with the work of Henry Vallely occurred around 1986 while attending one of Bruce Schwartz’s conventions at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. My friend Dan Riba picked up one of the Big Little Books a vendor had on the table and started flipping through the pages. He pointed out one of the illustrations and asked me if it looked familiar. We were both lifelong comic book fans and were well versed in the “classics” of the golden and silver age so within a heartbeat I realized that we were looking at a swipe from Detective Comics #33 from November of 1939, specifically the panel in which Bruce Wayne contemplates the nature of criminals (“… a superstitious and cowardly lot…”). Or so we thought. As it turned out, the copyright of the book (Gang Busters In Action, BLB 1451) was 1938 and we realized that it was Bob Kane who had done the swiping! Further perusal revealed at least a half dozen other poses familiar to Batfans, some of which I plan to upload in the future. In the meantime, compare the two for yourself.

Bruce Wayne is © DC Comics.

posted by DSK at 18:29 | 11 comments links to this post

 

Secret Origins of Batman Part 2

 

Today we return to 1938s Gang Busters In Action (BLB 1451) and two panels (pages 57 and 49) which it's safe to say were somewhat influential to the Batman mythos. The bottom panel is again from Detective Comics #33 (November, 1939) which was the first appearance of Batman's origin. For years Bob Kane was given sole credit for the art, but in the recently released Batman Chronicles Volume One he finally shares credit with Sheldon Moldoff on inks. Careful observers will note that the same pose of the killer (Joe Chill) made an earlier appearance in Detective Comics #27 (May, 1939) on the second page, bottom, middle panel. For that issue Bob Kane maintains sole art credit. To this day Henry E. Vallely receives none.

Bruce Wayne, Thomas Wayne, Martha Wayne and Joe Chill are all © DC Comics

posted by DSK at 20:43 | 6 comments links to this post

 

They're D..Dead (Secret Origins of Batman Part 3)

 

At first glance this may not be the most obvious example of an artist plagiarizing the work of Henry Vallely, but further perusal of Junior G-Men and the Counterfeiters (BLB 1442) reveals that it is peppered with the above character (know as Bill Boyd) who is clearly the model for not only young Bruce Wayne in Detective Comics #33, but young circus performer Grayson in Detective Comics #38 (April 1940) prior to becoming Robin. In this case Bob Kane (or whoever was ghosting for him) dug back a little further to 1937.

Bruce Wayne is © DC Comics.

 

Captain Olson (Secret Origins of Batman Part 4)

 

In previous posts I examined Henry Vallely's influence on Bob Kane in Detective Comics 1933, but here we see an even earlier influence. From the comic book which featured the first appearance of Batman, the 3rd panel of Detective Comics #27 (cover dated May 1939) gives us our first good look at Commissioner Gordon. Returning once again to 1938's Gang Busters In Action (BLB 1451), we find on page 11 a character in a familiar pose who may well be the prototype for Commissioner Gordon. Coincidentally this character is also a member of the police force, named Captain Olson.

Commissioner Gordon is © DC Comics.

[BLBcomics-migration]

a bit more from GCD discussing the Gangbusters BLB art swipes. I have the Gangbusters In Action and the G-Men BLBs mentioned on the Vallely art site - the swipes are stark

 

<< The G-Men story that I refered to was a topic a few months ago which

mentioned that the Batman origin contained panels lifted from the G-Men strip

which may have been reprinted in a BLB. My memory may be faulty here too since I

don't have a copy but just wondering what the relationship is.

 

Bruce >>

 

I wasn't a party to the discussion of G-Men. I don't know much about BLBs.

Early Batman story & art seemed to run parallel to work that Chester Gould was

doing on Tracy. Some of it was ahead of Gould, but clearly much of it

was inspired by Gould's use of strange villains that met ironic ends.

 

If someone is familiar with the BLB G-men, then I'd enjoy hearing what they

can tell us. I don't doubt that swipes were used freely in those days. To some

extent, one was considered stupid not to. There was a lot of self-loathing

on the part of people working in comics. Many wanted to get out of comics just

as quickly as they could.

 

--Jerry

[Aman619]

give him a call!

 

just dont tell him to read this thread first. : )

 

better done in person, is how i do these things

 

you got his phone number?

 

POW Entertainment in LA

[ciorac]

a bit more from GCD discussing the Gangbusters BLB art swipes. I have the Gangbusters In Action and the G-Men BLBs mentioned on the Vallely art site - the swipes are stark

 

<< The G-Men story that I refered to was a topic a few months ago which

mentioned that the Batman origin contained panels lifted from the G-Men strip

which may have been reprinted in a BLB. My memory may be faulty here too since I

don't have a copy but just wondering what the relationship is.

 

Bruce >>

 

I wasn't a party to the discussion of G-Men. I don't know much about BLBs.

Early Batman story & art seemed to run parallel to work that Chester Gould was

doing on Tracy. Some of it was ahead of Gould, but clearly much of it

was inspired by Gould's use of strange villains that met ironic ends.

 

If someone is familiar with the BLB G-men, then I'd enjoy hearing what they

can tell us. I don't doubt that swipes were used freely in those days. To some

extent, one was considered stupid not to. There was a lot of self-loathing

on the part of people working in comics. Many wanted to get out of comics just

as quickly as they could.

 

--Jerry

 

Everyone swiped then, and probably still do now. Another good friend of mine who has since passed away, Dan Barry, a wonderful artist, had an enourmous swipe file. He knew just about everyone from the golden age, and he told me they all had swipe files, even Kirby.

[ciorac]

 

 

100% full agreement re follow the money

 

And it is obvious that Goodman wanted all the money, which is a natural human condition for many - and i will definitely be writing good things about Stan as he did do good things

 

He also was involved with not do good things in the comics business - but that is also part of the slice of life

and you did not answer what i wrote, taking the focus in a different direction:

 

We are talking apples & oranges here. I have not denigrated Lee's contribs to Marvel, only elevating Kirby and Ditko's input. which Lee pushed to the side beginning around the time Siegel and Shuster were beginning their push to recover the copyright on Superman when the first 28 years were up.

 

We all must keep in mind that Goodman had steady interaction with the publishers of DC National, Archie (MLJ), Harvey, as they would get together for various functions.

 

I think Stan was following orders from corporate suits who owned the company he had his life wrapped up in, but never owned. What he sought was his salary and bonus - like any body else making a living.

 

Was there a question in there somewhere for me to answer? The only direction I've taken this all along, while navigating your attempts to derail it and your repeated resume writing, is to say that you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. Plain and simple. You are on an island of denial on this one Bob my boy. Many may agree with you that Stan and Bob overstated their contributions, and you may have many more supporters on the over all value of what Kane contributed ( I, however, am not amongst those as I loved his artwork on the early Detectives). But, I doubt there are many serious collectors and/or historians who do not credit Stan Lee for the lion share of the CREATION as well as writing of the early Silver Age Marvel characters.

 

And since we are on the subject of resumes (one of your favorite topics), I have been dealing and collecting comics for 36 years. Owned two very successful comic stores, both of which are still in operation. Researched the hobby my entire life, have written articles on comics history, including ones on Batman published in major comic trade magazines, and most importantly, maintained CLOSE personal relationships with several golden and silver age creators, that lasted many years. Some, still to this day. I didn't interview them once or twice at a comic show, or have a phone call or two with them, or exchange letters with them. We were/are FRIENDS who talked all the time about this stuff. No matter what you read, or talk to other collectors about, or your opinions are, they were THERE when it happened. All of there stories jive. The variations are so slight it is like just using a different camera angle to take a picture of the same image. And, coincidentally I have talked to Stan Lee, about 12 years ago I had the honor of talking to him in person, for nearly an hour. He struck me as kind, brilliant, honest, enthusiastic and spoke just like he wrote. I believed every word that came out of his mouth.

 

So there it is.

[BLBcomics-migration]

a bit more from GCD discussing the Gangbusters BLB art swipes. I have the Gangbusters In Action and the G-Men BLBs mentioned on the Vallely art site - the swipes are stark

 

<< The G-Men story that I refered to was a topic a few months ago which

mentioned that the Batman origin contained panels lifted from the G-Men strip

which may have been reprinted in a BLB. My memory may be faulty here too since I

don't have a copy but just wondering what the relationship is.

 

Bruce >>

 

I wasn't a party to the discussion of G-Men. I don't know much about BLBs.

Early Batman story & art seemed to run parallel to work that Chester Gould was

doing on Tracy. Some of it was ahead of Gould, but clearly much of it

was inspired by Gould's use of strange villains that met ironic ends.

 

If someone is familiar with the BLB G-men, then I'd enjoy hearing what they

can tell us. I don't doubt that swipes were used freely in those days. To some

extent, one was considered stupid not to. There was a lot of self-loathing

on the part of people working in comics. Many wanted to get out of comics just

as quickly as they could.

 

--Jerry

 

Everyone swiped then, and probably still do now. Another good friend of mine who has since passed away, Dan Barry, a wonderful artist, had an enourmous swipe file. He knew just about everyone from the golden age, and he told me they all had swipe files, even Kirby.

 

um, actually, this thread is ostensibly titled "So How Much Work Did Bob Kane Actually Do?"

 

I knew Dan Barry also, met him many a time

 

It has gone off into many tangents

 

So, art experts out there in funny book land have been figuring out "how much, indeed" and the consensus seems to be, "not much"

 

I think it might be time do dig out Steranko's Comics History #1 and re-read that now.

[ciorac]

a bit more from GCD discussing the Gangbusters BLB art swipes. I have the Gangbusters In Action and the G-Men BLBs mentioned on the Vallely art site - the swipes are stark

 

<< The G-Men story that I refered to was a topic a few months ago which

mentioned that the Batman origin contained panels lifted from the G-Men strip

which may have been reprinted in a BLB. My memory may be faulty here too since I

don't have a copy but just wondering what the relationship is.

 

Bruce >>

 

I wasn't a party to the discussion of G-Men. I don't know much about BLBs.

Early Batman story & art seemed to run parallel to work that Chester Gould was

doing on Tracy. Some of it was ahead of Gould, but clearly much of it

was inspired by Gould's use of strange villains that met ironic ends.

 

If someone is familiar with the BLB G-men, then I'd enjoy hearing what they

can tell us. I don't doubt that swipes were used freely in those days. To some

extent, one was considered stupid not to. There was a lot of self-loathing

on the part of people working in comics. Many wanted to get out of comics just

as quickly as they could.

 

--Jerry

 

Everyone swiped then, and probably still do now. Another good friend of mine who has since passed away, Dan Barry, a wonderful artist, had an enourmous swipe file. He knew just about everyone from the golden age, and he told me they all had swipe files, even Kirby.

 

um, actually, this thread is ostensibly titled "So How Much Work Did Bob Kane Actually Do?"

 

I knew Dan Barry also, met him many a time

 

It has gone off into many tangents

 

So, art experts out there in funny book land have been figuring out "how much, indeed" and the consensus seems to be, "not much"

 

I think it might be time do dig out Steranko's Comics History #1 and re-read that now.

 

I know what the thread is about, you, I and many others have taken it in other directions, including Stan Lee. Your posts and links seemed slanted towards showing how Kane's artwork was swiped from someone elses. That is what I was replying to. Seems right on topic to me.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Was there a question in there somewhere for me to answer? The only direction I've taken this all along, while navigating your attempts to derail it and your repeated resume writing, is to say that you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. Plain and simple. You are on an island of denial on this one Bob my boy. Many may agree with you that Stan and Bob overstated their contributions, and you may have many more supporters on the over all value of what Kane contributed ( I, however, am not amongst those as I loved his artwork on the early Detectives). But, I doubt there are many serious collectors and/or historians who do not credit Stan Lee for the lion share of the CREATION as well as writing of the early Silver Age Marvel characters.

 

And since we are on the subject of resumes (one of your favorite topics), I have been dealing and collecting comics for 36 years. Owned two very successful comic stores, both of which are still in operation. Researched the hobby my entire life, have written articles on comics history, including ones on Batman published in major comic trade magazines, and most importantly, maintained CLOSE personal relationships with several golden and silver age creators, that lasted many years. Some, still to this day. I didn't interview them once or twice at a comic show, or have a phone call or two with them, or exchange letters with them. We were/are FRIENDS who talked all the time about this stuff. No matter what you read, or talk to other collectors about, or your opinions are, they were THERE when it happened. All of there stories jive. The variations are so slight it is like just using a different camera angle to take a picture of the same image. And, coincidentally I have talked to Stan Lee, about 12 years ago I had the honor of talking to him in person, for nearly an hour. He struck me as kind, brilliant, honest, enthusiastic and spoke just like he wrote. I believed every word that came out of his mouth.

 

So there it is.

 

Nope, there was no question in there for you, specifically, to answer.

 

Your bogus trumped up charge(s) of you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. is so much BS. Laughable, at best.

 

You state you loved Bob Kane's art work on early Batman - and the concept just keeps on growing that he did not do that much at all - even from the get-go, and i would take your opine, and that of any other lister here, at less value than what Jerry Bails knows of art iD concepts.

 

Resume writing? I have been self-employed for 35 years now in the comics business. I am not writing a resume here - what for? - you are side tracking the issues here. Again, so much BS while you attempt the change the subject, or, alter its focus.

 

I have been friends with a great many comics creators over the years. 100s in fact.

 

I was asked if i had ever interviewed Stan Lee. The answer is no. I have been gathering my info and data before i tackle this one, as memory jogging will be in huge order here, so the stories go re his bad memory.

 

I always do my home work and develop query lists before tackling one of these interviews

 

For example, I prepped for weeks before i sat down with Carmine Infantino in his NYC apartment for 6-7 hours of taped interviews minutely dissecting among other things his last week working for DC National as publisher, going thru the story hour by hour, in some parts minute by minute. We covered the concept of affidavit return fraud leading into DC National entering the Direct Sales Market.

 

I have been talking with my friends in the comics business for decades. I do not interview the people i have interviewed at comicons. I am too busy buying & selling old comics plus the distractions at comicons are too much for me to want to deal with.

 

Go ahead and believe every word out of Stan Lee's mouth.

 

I do not

 

You denigrate my talking with Steve Ditko on the phone a couple times, then exchanging letters for several years, some how elevating an hour talk with Stan the Man as some how more real.

 

More power to you, young man

 

You spout off about all these friends who were "there" without identifying them - or even one.

 

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

[ciorac]

 

Was there a question in there somewhere for me to answer? The only direction I've taken this all along, while navigating your attempts to derail it and your repeated resume writing, is to say that you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. Plain and simple. You are on an island of denial on this one Bob my boy. Many may agree with you that Stan and Bob overstated their contributions, and you may have many more supporters on the over all value of what Kane contributed ( I, however, am not amongst those as I loved his artwork on the early Detectives). But, I doubt there are many serious collectors and/or historians who do not credit Stan Lee for the lion share of the CREATION as well as writing of the early Silver Age Marvel characters.

 

And since we are on the subject of resumes (one of your favorite topics), I have been dealing and collecting comics for 36 years. Owned two very successful comic stores, both of which are still in operation. Researched the hobby my entire life, have written articles on comics history, including ones on Batman published in major comic trade magazines, and most importantly, maintained CLOSE personal relationships with several golden and silver age creators, that lasted many years. Some, still to this day. I didn't interview them once or twice at a comic show, or have a phone call or two with them, or exchange letters with them. We were/are FRIENDS who talked all the time about this stuff. No matter what you read, or talk to other collectors about, or your opinions are, they were THERE when it happened. All of there stories jive. The variations are so slight it is like just using a different camera angle to take a picture of the same image. And, coincidentally I have talked to Stan Lee, about 12 years ago I had the honor of talking to him in person, for nearly an hour. He struck me as kind, brilliant, honest, enthusiastic and spoke just like he wrote. I believed every word that came out of his mouth.

 

So there it is.

 

Nope, there was no question in there for you, specifically, to answer.

 

Your bogus trumped up charge(s) of you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. is so much BS. Laughable, at best.

 

You state you loved Bob Kane's art work on early Batman - and the concept just keeps on growing that he did not do that much at all - even from the get-go, and i would take your opine, and that of any other lister here, at less value than what Jerry Bails knows of art iD concepts.

 

Resume writing? I have been self-employed for 35 years now in the comics business. I am not writing a resume here - what for? - you are side tracking the issues here. Again, so much BS while you attempt the change the subject, or, alter its focus.

 

I have been friends with a great many comics creators over the years. 100s in fact.

 

I was asked if i had ever interviewed Stan Lee. The answer is no. I have been gathering my info and data before i tackle this one, as memory jogging will be in huge order here, so the stories go re his bad memory.

 

I always do my home work and develop query lists before tackling one of these interviews

 

For example, I prepped for weeks before i sat down with Carmine Infantino in his NYC apartment for 6-7 hours of taped interviews minutely dissecting among other things his last week working for DC National as publisher, going thru the story hour by hour, in some parts minute by minute. We covered the concept of affidavit return fraud leading into DC National entering the Direct Sales Market.

 

I have been talking with my friends in the comics business for decades. I do not interview the people i have interviewed at comicons. I am too busy buying & selling old comics plus the distractions at comicons are too much for me to want to deal with.

 

Go ahead and believe every word out of Stan Lee's mouth.

 

I do not

 

You denigrate my talking with Steve Ditko on the phone a couple times, then exchanging letters for several years, some how elevating an hour talk with Stan the Man as some how more real.

 

More power to you, young man

 

You spout off about all these friends who were "there" without identifying them - or even one.

 

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

 

Not even one? Did I not JUST mention Dan Barry? Have I not repeatedly mentioned Shelly Moldoff and Roy Thomas? How about Jim Starlin? Any of these ring a bell?

 

My mention of my chat with Stan Lee was to illustrate a point, that at LEAST I have talked to the man face to face that you have slammed repeatedly in this thread.

 

you have read the Batman article it was in Comic Book Marketplace, and is mentioned here:

 

Batman Articles

[BLBcomics-migration]

I know what the thread is about, you, I and many others have taken it in other directions, including Stan Lee. Your posts and links seemed slanted towards showing how Kane's artwork was swiped from someone elses. That is what I was replying to. Seems right on topic to me.

 

So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

 

not much

 

The swipes from Gangbusters and G-Men Big Little Books dating just a year or two before Batman shows up in Tec 27 are one thing. Those are very real. I happen to have those BLBs and checked em out closely today.

 

Comics art ID experts are coming together that Bob Kane's use of ghosts began much earlier than suspected just a little while ago. The more important posts i have cut & pasted here form else where, where serious comics research has been conducted for more than a decade now on the Net over at the GCD www.comics.org, have ID'd Bob Wood as Bob Kane's earliest ghost.

 

the man was not doing much of any thing on Batman other than constantly claiming credit for a legion of ghosts for decades and all your belly-aching can not change that concept, as much as you would like it to. sorry

[Zonker]

I believed every word that came out of his mouth.

 

I kinda doubt that Stan himself believes every word that comes out of his mouth.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Not even one? Did I not JUST mention Dan Barry? Have I not repeatedly mentioned Shelly Moldoff and Roy Thomas? How about Jim Starlin? Any of these ring a bell?

 

My mention of my chat with Stan Lee was to illustrate a point, that at LEAST I have talked to the man face to face that you have slammed repeatedly in this thread.

 

you have read the Batman article it was in Comic Book Marketplace, and is mentioned here:

 

Batman Articles

 

No, you have not mentioned Roy Thomas before, a good friend of mine as well.

 

Shelly Moldoff, yes, i talked with him many a times, good guy, has such wonderful Bob Kane stories, especially when Bob wanted to out to lunch with Shelly

 

Dan Barry? I knew him also -

 

Jim Starlin? Knew him well out in california - he was at my house for Christmas 1974 soon after he moved out from back east, when the "Marvel Bullpen West" was in operation which included Steve Engelhart, Frank Brunner, Alan Weiss, Orzechowski, the guys Mike Friedrich brought out with him in the lead up to Star Reach debuting back in 1974.

 

As a matter of fact, i hooked Jim up with Steve Leialoha (sp?), garnering Steve his first Marvel work when Jim needed help on Capt Marvel to get thru a deadline - and Steve became steady work with Jim, then leading into his ink jobs with Brunner on Howard the Duck followed by hisi stint with Chaykin on Star Wars. Steve brought in the pages for me to read as he worked his way thru the stack. I almost did not go to Star Wars at first in 1977 cuz i had already read the original art

 

But i digress -

[BLBcomics-migration]

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

 

Not even one? Did I not JUST mention Dan Barry? Have I not repeatedly mentioned Shelly Moldoff and Roy Thomas? How about Jim Starlin? Any of these ring a bell?

 

My mention of my chat with Stan Lee was to illustrate a point, that at LEAST I have talked to the man face to face that you have slammed repeatedly in this thread.

 

you have read the Batman article it was in Comic Book Marketplace, and is mentioned here:

 

Batman Articles

 

Two questions for you here, Bill, just for you

 

Which one in that list is yours? I do not mind reading all of them, but the first one listed i clicked on and it has no writer credit as to who did it - or all of them yours that do not state the writer

 

And so a one hour homage with Stan the Man 12 years ago unravels all the queries about how the world evolved?

 

Wow - i am jealous

[BLBcomics-migration]

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

 

you have read the Batman article it was in Comic Book Marketplace, and is mentioned here:

 

Batman Articles

 

OK, I found it, sorry about that

 

Batman #1 v Superman #1 - Bill Ponseti

 

But it will not open for me - all i get is a small blue ? in a box

 

no article

 

and where is the URL for the home page?

[ciorac]

 

Was there a question in there somewhere for me to answer? The only direction I've taken this all along, while navigating your attempts to derail it and your repeated resume writing, is to say that you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. Plain and simple. You are on an island of denial on this one Bob my boy. Many may agree with you that Stan and Bob overstated their contributions, and you may have many more supporters on the over all value of what Kane contributed ( I, however, am not amongst those as I loved his artwork on the early Detectives). But, I doubt there are many serious collectors and/or historians who do not credit Stan Lee for the lion share of the CREATION as well as writing of the early Silver Age Marvel characters.

 

And since we are on the subject of resumes (one of your favorite topics), I have been dealing and collecting comics for 36 years. Owned two very successful comic stores, both of which are still in operation. Researched the hobby my entire life, have written articles on comics history, including ones on Batman published in major comic trade magazines, and most importantly, maintained CLOSE personal relationships with several golden and silver age creators, that lasted many years. Some, still to this day. I didn't interview them once or twice at a comic show, or have a phone call or two with them, or exchange letters with them. We were/are FRIENDS who talked all the time about this stuff. No matter what you read, or talk to other collectors about, or your opinions are, they were THERE when it happened. All of there stories jive. The variations are so slight it is like just using a different camera angle to take a picture of the same image. And, coincidentally I have talked to Stan Lee, about 12 years ago I had the honor of talking to him in person, for nearly an hour. He struck me as kind, brilliant, honest, enthusiastic and spoke just like he wrote. I believed every word that came out of his mouth.

 

So there it is.

 

Nope, there was no question in there for you, specifically, to answer.

 

Your bogus trumped up charge(s) of you have unfairly painted Bob Kane and Stan Lee as charlatons, opportunists, glorifed office boy (in Stan's case), corporate lackeys, no talent hacks, etc., is that you are wrong. is so much BS. Laughable, at best.

 

You state you loved Bob Kane's art work on early Batman - and the concept just keeps on growing that he did not do that much at all - even from the get-go, and i would take your opine, and that of any other lister here, at less value than what Jerry Bails knows of art iD concepts.

 

Resume writing? I have been self-employed for 35 years now in the comics business. I am not writing a resume here - what for? - you are side tracking the issues here. Again, so much BS while you attempt the change the subject, or, alter its focus.

 

I have been friends with a great many comics creators over the years. 100s in fact.

 

I was asked if i had ever interviewed Stan Lee. The answer is no. I have been gathering my info and data before i tackle this one, as memory jogging will be in huge order here, so the stories go re his bad memory.

 

I always do my home work and develop query lists before tackling one of these interviews

 

For example, I prepped for weeks before i sat down with Carmine Infantino in his NYC apartment for 6-7 hours of taped interviews minutely dissecting among other things his last week working for DC National as publisher, going thru the story hour by hour, in some parts minute by minute. We covered the concept of affidavit return fraud leading into DC National entering the Direct Sales Market.

 

I have been talking with my friends in the comics business for decades. I do not interview the people i have interviewed at comicons. I am too busy buying & selling old comics plus the distractions at comicons are too much for me to want to deal with.

 

Go ahead and believe every word out of Stan Lee's mouth.

 

I do not

 

You denigrate my talking with Steve Ditko on the phone a couple times, then exchanging letters for several years, some how elevating an hour talk with Stan the Man as some how more real.

 

More power to you, young man

 

You spout off about all these friends who were "there" without identifying them - or even one.

 

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

 

Oh, and thanks for calling me "young man". These days I don't really feel it.

 

I forgot to mention Julie Schwartz in my list above, but you had already mentioned that he came on baord too late to know anything about how Batman came about. Since he was pretty much the father of comics fandom, and editor of DC comics, I just assumed he might be an authoritative source. Guess I was wrong.

 

Have you read the Golden Age of Comics Fandom by Bill Schelly? There are two guys pictured, one on the back cover, the other inside, and mentioned prominently in the book who I was very well acquainted with. Leonard Brown and Larry Raybourne. Know them? Probably not.

 

However, Larry knew Bob Kane so well that Bob did him the favor one day and had Larry featured as a villain in a Batman comic book! Batman #200 no less. Bob was kind enough to not even change Larry's name. He told me lots of stories about Bob. Some of which were unflattering, but many that weren't. You've been quoted as saying Bob Kane was an "SOB". Hard to square that with a guy who would put a fanboy that he developed a friendship with into comic book immortality. Isn't it? Larry was a friend and a customer of mine for many years, he was partners with another person you hold in high esteem....Robert Crumb. When Crumb worked for American Greeting cards, Larry wrote the jokes to Crumb's artwork. He still has all of them, the originals. I've seen them with my own eyes.

 

So yes, Bob, I know a good many people who were either directly involved with the beginnings of the Golden Age, the Silver Age and Fandom. And they have taught me much about the history of this business.

 

Lastly, when Bob Overstreet and Steve Geppi called together all of the comic book experts they held in high esteem for the first ever "Overstreet Advisors Conference in the early 90's, I don't recall seeing you there.....has my memory faded that much? Or were you not invited? I double checked the 25th anniversary edition of the price guide to see if your name was mentioned on the first page of the guide (after the first couple of ad pages) along with the other invitees. Perhaps Bob left it off by mistake? I do see mine there though...

 

I have given you your respect for what you have brought to this hobby repeatedly in this thread and several other threads in which we have debated. When I felt you were wrong, I called you on it. No need to question my standing in the hobby, it has been secure for a long time and unless I do something to change that, I have no reason to assume that will change...

[ciorac]

And where was your Batman article published? I want to read it

 

you have read the Batman article it was in Comic Book Marketplace, and is mentioned here:

 

Batman Articles

 

OK, I found it, sorry about that

 

Batman #1 v Superman #1 - Bill Ponseti

 

But it will not open for me - all i get is a small blue ? in a box

 

no article

 

and where is the URL for the home page?

 

Maybe they don't post the archives anymore, I don't know. All of my CBM's and most of my Overstreet Golden Age Quarterlys, and monthly's were destroyed in Katrina, so I don't have copies of the articles I wrote in them or the many market reports. There was anohter fanzine/marketplace book that I used to write for too...Jack Mallette had a regular column in it called "Shaking the Bushes". What was that magazine called again?

 

If you have your First Quarterly, look at the people Bob mentions as being instrumental in getting it to become a reality, might just find my name there too...

[BLBcomics-migration]

I see i might have touched a nerve or two of yours with no Novocain, young man

 

Julius Schwartz was a friend to most every body, twas a pity that so many GA collectors denigrated him in the last few years of his life, as i firmly believe his Ambassadorship For DC Comics going to so many comicons kept him alive - and when that was taken away, he died

 

Julie was a great friend of mine - he edited my Big Bang Theory of Comic Book History article for CBM #50 - and i have over a dozen hours taped interviews with him on specific subjects including the origins of Superman. He put me in touch with Jack Williamson down in New Mexico, among others. JW had concepts Jerry Siegel used to invent Superman.

 

Re Shelly's Golden Age of Comics Fandom, actually, i am written about in that book albeit towards the back of it.

 

And to Bill S i supplied the data and cover repros on the earliest known comics fanzine PHANTASY WORLD by David Kyle - just ask Bill.

 

David K was getting old and i wanted him to see his name in print as having published the first comics fanzine back in 1936 before he died, as i knew my book would be a longer time incoming. Bill S & I had many a talk about his book.

 

Leonard Brown? Partners with Malcolm Willits in Collector's book Store in Hollywood? One time partner with Richard Olson, my co-writer of the comics history articles in Overstreet? Sure, good friends, i was even in his bank vault where they stored the high grade good stuff at Collectors, still the GREATEST comic book store for back issues there ever was, ever will be, Every time Leonard comes thru the San Diego comicon, he stops to chat up stuff. One dinosaur to another, albeit i am a young dinosaur compared to LB, who is shocked at the prices comics bring these days. I have interviewed him extensively for my comics business history book, going into areas not covered by Shelly in his comics fandom history book.

 

larry Raybourne? Nope, can't say i know that i have met him. Being a fan boy friend is maybe a bit different than working for the man.

 

I do know that Jerry Robinson asked me at the last Baltimore comicon to help him out with some things on his revamp of his THE COMICS history book which came out back in 1974.

 

An finally, the warehouse of my comic book company BEST OF TWO WORLDS suffered being mostly wiped out by flooding back in 1986. Most of my stores closed down, there used to be a million comic books in there, much of turned into paper mache bricks.

 

I dropped/forced out of the main stream of comics dealing, falling back into one store for a few years, absorbed with the aftermath fall out. Terry Zwigoff filmed parts of his CRUMB! docu-bio movie there, so that store is immortalized for ever in that CRUMB! movie.

 

My first mention in Overstreet is in #13 - prior to that i kept my data to myself. Knowledge being power in the comics world. Besides i went thru a period of railing the OPG cuz Bob O refused to place UGs in it.

 

In the early 1990s i was too busy feeling sorry for myself following the death of Rick Griffin in 1991, an artist quite famous in California, as i had created a Rick Griffin art gallery down inside San Francisco's Fisherman's Wharf,

 

Some say The Wharf is the 3rd largest tourist attraction in the world after Disneyworld and Disneyland. I lost $150,000 because of his death and my partner lost a quarter million. Rick left no will and we got sucked into a probate court trip between his es wife and ex girl friend. long story not for here

 

Then I spent a year, year and a half, recovering from a tumor cut out of my back 1993 or so. no health insurance.

 

Then again, i was invited by Those Powers That Be in Oct 1996 to begin presenting proper comics history in Overstreet. I am there every year because they want me to be, And have been doing same for a decade now - every year. Must be doing some thing correct

 

And none of this has anything to do with the fact that Bob Kane did a lot less on Batman than he kept claiming over the decades. Or some of the other factoids you choose to turn a deaf ear to/

 

And your Batman #1 VS Superman #1 article will not open for me - the only one which will not