So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[Kakapo]

We all know that he made good use of some very talented assistants, but I was listening to one of the World Talk Radio shows (the Joe Sinnott one, I think), and the conversation turned to Jerry Robinson and his creating the Joker (which was Batman 1, after all, with only a handful of Detectives predating it). Presumably this took place while Bob Kane reclined in his office, with his feet on his desk, puffing a large cigar, pausing only to mutter, "Yeah, that'll do, Jerry."

 

So if Sprang drew a lot of the stories, and Jerry Robinson others, and Sheldon Moldoff still others, how much of an artistic body of work did Kane leave behind? Did he bother doing breakdowns for his assistants, or just leave them to it, safe in the knowledge that his name was still on the splash page? How many stories are indisputably pure Kane?

[aardvark88]

An excellent question. Seems like Bob Kane had a studio working on his behalf. I believe, Heritage sold several Bob Kane studio twice up GA original art to Batman #11 with Joker x-over. They were partially pencilled interior pages with some brush india ink. Beautiful originals but probably never touched by the hand of Kane.

[Kakapo]

And of course he didn't -script the dialogue, either... But apparently a shrewd businessman. Would Batman have become the icon he has, had Kane been forced to do it himself? Presumably he felt his assistants were doing at least as good a job as he could, with the obvious bonus that it left him more free time.

 

No Joker, poorer artwork...he might have gone the way of Hourman or Doctor Mid-Nite!

 

I'm quite fond of Starman myself. Dreadful costume, stupid cosmic rod, but great artwork and stories that hold up well.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Remember back in 1989 when the first Batman movie was new and fresh, Bob Kane did a portfolio of i think it was four paintings, S&N, well, supposedly by Bob hisself

 

Actually Greg Theakston did those paintings, as yet another ghost

 

I have less than zero respect for Bob kane; all one has to say is Bill Finger

[ciorac]

Remember back in 1989 when the first Batman movie was new and fresh, Bob Kane did a portfolio of i think it was four paintings, S&N, well, supposedly by Bob hisself

 

Actually Greg Theakston did those paintings, as yet another ghost

 

I have less than zero respect for Bob kane; all one has to say is Bill Finger

 

I used to have a large original painting by Bob Kane, that he painted while staying at a friends house. It was quite nice, and they watched him paint it. No ghost that time.

[batman_fan]

An excellent question. Seems like Bob Kane had a studio working on his behalf. I believe, Heritage sold several Bob Kane studio twice up GA original art to Batman #11 with Joker x-over. They were partially pencilled interior pages with some brush india ink. Beautiful originals but probably never touched by the hand of Kane.

 

I own one that I picked up on Heritage.

[lou_fine]

And of course he didn't -script the dialogue, either... But apparently a shrewd businessman. Would Batman have become the icon he has, had Kane been forced to do it himself? Presumably he felt his assistants were doing at least as good a job as he could, with the obvious bonus that it left him more free time.

 

The part about Kane being a shrewd businessman is definitely correct as he was the only person to ever really outsmart Jack Liebowitz. Managed to bluff Liebowitz into giving him partial ownership rights to Batman. Certainly not a very likeable person as he apparently stabbed Seigel and Shuster in the back as they were going after the Superman rights.

 

Kane also took all the credit for the creation of Batman when it probably really belonged more to Bill Finger. Don't believe he drew a single line or wrote a single word after the first year or so of Batman. Kane was really unable to draw or write anywhere close to what the ghosts in his studio were able to. As a result, he simply sat back, let them do all the work while he collected all of the money and credit.

 

One part of the Batman mythos that reflects Kane's life was that he was actually able to live out the lifestyle of Bruce Wayne in real life. Basically a wealthy man who was able to date models and Hollywood starlets. Totally selfish as he always looked out for himself at the expense of everybody else.

[CGCMINT]

"So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?"

 

I think he signed his name on the covers and inside pages.

 

John

[Kakapo]

"So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?"

 

I think he signed his name on the covers and inside pages.

 

John

 

You mean that wasn't a stat?

 

Thanks for the replies, everyone, interesting stuff. The massive contrast between the deal Kane managed to obtain and that which Siegel and Shuster ended up with is quite shocking! And they actually, you know, did stuff. What type of ownership rights did the creators of Hourman (Baily, was it?), Nodell's Green Lantern etc. get?

[SignatureSelect]

Kane and Marston were the only people to originally get rights to the characters. No body else got rights. Not Seigal and shuster(Superman), Not Nodel(Alan Scott), not Bernard Baily(Hourman), Not EE Hibbard or Carmine Infantino(Flash) nor Creig Flessel( Crimson avengers and Sandman) Now body got rights.

 

Seigal and Shuster sued and later got credit and some money

 

Carmine Infantino sued and got some money for helping recreat the Flash (Barry Allen) but EE Hibbard, Harry Lampert nor Gardner Fox ever got money or rights.

 

Bernard Baily and Creig Flessel never really got anything.

[ciorac]

[quote

Kane also took all the credit for the creation of Batman when it probably really belonged more to Bill Finger. Don't believe he drew a single line or wrote a single word after the first year or so of Batman. Kane was really unable to draw or write anywhere close to what the ghosts in his studio were able to. As a result, he simply sat back, let them do all the work while he collected all of the money and credit.

.

 

While I agree with you that Bill Finger was a major contributor to the early success of Batman and should be given enormous credit, Kane should not be stripped of all credit. To imply such is absurd. In fact, as you mentioned he was the primary artist/writer for the first year of the character. Wasn't that the best year Batman had in the Golden Age? After Robin came along, Batman became cartoonish shortly thereafter.. I always preferred the somewhat shadowy, crudely drawn Batman of the first 11 issues. Thankfully they returned to that style beginning with Adams (with much better aart of course!). Certainly Adams was influenced by the Kane era.

[lou_fine]

Kane also took all the credit for the creation of Batman when it probably really belonged more to Bill Finger. Don't believe he drew a single line or wrote a single word after the first year or so of Batman. Kane was really unable to draw or write anywhere close to what the ghosts in his studio were able to. As a result, he simply sat back, let them do all the work while he collected all of the money and credit.

.

 

While I agree with you that Bill Finger was a major contributor to the early success of Batman and should be given enormous credit, Kane should not be stripped of all credit. To imply such is absurd. In fact, as you mentioned he was the primary artist/writer for the first year of the character. Wasn't that the best year Batman had in the Golden Age? After Robin came along, Batman became cartoonish shortly thereafter.. I always preferred the somewhat shadowy, crudely drawn Batman of the first 11 issues. Thankfully they returned to that style beginning with Adams (with much better aart of course!). Certainly Adams was influenced by the Kane era.

 

ciroac;

 

From my earlier statement, I did not meant that Kane should be stripped of all credits for the creation of Batman. I was implying that the creation of Batman should probably be attributed to Finger and Kane (or vice versa), similar to how Superman has now been rightfully attributed to Siegal and Shuster.

 

It should also be pointed out that Kane was most likely not the driving force behind the initial dark and moody Batman look. Apparently when Kane was asked to come up with a customed hero over the weekend, his initial concept was a bright red costumed hero with wings called "Bird-Man" or something silly like that. Only upon input from his friend, Bill Finger, was the concept changed to a darker, more mysterious pulp-like figure. It was Finger who actually initially thought up the Bat-Man concept.

 

Apparently, it were these preliminary ideas and sketches that Kane then presented to the DC editors on Monday morning who then gave the go-ahead for a six-page story. Being the sly and crafty businessman, Kane failed to mentioned the input from Finger, refused the standard page rate payment, sought legal advice to cut a better deal for himself, and never mentioned the long-term deal to Finger.

 

Apparently the cover for the first Batmen story ('Tec 27) was not even drawn by Kane as the art style did not match Kane's clunky artistic look. In addition, the artist for the second Batman story has not yet been identified, but Jerry Robinson was clearly on board by the third issue. Based upon this, Kane was clearly responsible for the first issue interiors, and posibbly some of the subsequent design work in later issues. As a result, I may have been a bit too generous in my initial statement regarding Kane's involvement with the first year of Batman, as his primary direct invlovement may have only been limited to the first issue.

 

I am sure that there are many conflicting viewpoints as to the entent of Kane's involement with Batman, including apparently, many conflicting and shifting after the fact stories by Kane himself. Just sad to see that Kane was able to live the life of a wealthy playboy while Finger died in poverty and never receiving the credit that he deserved.

[Norrin_Radd]

Here is a previous thread on the topic.

[Kakapo]

Interesting stuff - has DC made any gesture to acknowledge this since Kane's death, such as adding Bill Finger's name to the "Batman created by Bob Kane" square that appeared on every splash page? If Kane's dead, he can't sue, no matter how awesome his contract was.

[Theagenes]

Here is a previous thread on the topic.

 

Man, that 1965 letter from Kane linked in the other thread was crazy. Jerry Bails obviously touched a nerve with his Finger article. All I can say about Kane is, "methinks the lady doth protest too much."

[BLBcomics-migration]

Here is a previous thread on the topic.

 

Man, that 1965 letter from Kane linked in the other thread was crazy. Jerry Bails obviously touched a nerve with his Finger article. All I can say about Kane is, "methinks the lady doth protest too much."

 

I remember reading Jerry's letter back when Biljo's Batmania zine was new, i had a sub to it, thought Kane's response to be weak at best - one should talk with Shelly Moldoff about Bob Kane, he has some great stories re BK as well

 

And i even contributed stuff into that BATMAN AND ME book back in 1989, winding up in the acknowledgements - but only cuz Kane was supposed to acknowledge Finger therein, which he kinda did

[Kakapo]

Just in case anyone reading this thread isn't yet convinced that Kane was a jerk:

"I worked for Bob Kane as a ghost from ' 53 to ' 67. DC didn't know that I was involved; that was the handshake agreement I had with Bob: 'You do the work don't say anything, Shelly, and you've got steady work'. No, he didn't pay great, but it was steady work, it was security. I knew that we had to do a minimum of 350 to 360 pages a year. Also, I was doing other work at the same time for [editors] Jack Schiff and Murray Boltinoff at DC. They didn't know I was working on Batman for Bob. ... So I was busy. Between the two, I never had a dull year, which is the compensation I got for being Bob's ghost, for keeping myself anonymous".

 

That's from wikipedia's entry for Sheldon Moldoff, I think taken from an Alter Ego interview.

 

So to summarise, it wasn't even Kane who thought "I'm going to come up with a superhero to rival Superman"; he was asked to do that by DC. He then came up with "an idea for a character called 'Batman', and he'd like me to see the drawings. I went over to Kane's, and he had drawn a character who looked very much like Superman with kind of ... reddish tights, I believe, with boots ... no gloves, no gauntlets ... with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope. He had two stiff wings that were sticking out,looking like bat wings. And under it was a big sign ... BATMAN." - so said Bill Finger at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane

 

It gets better: "Finger said he offered such suggestions as giving the character a cowl, and a scalloped cape instead of wings; adding gloves; and removing the bright red sections of the original costume, suggesting instead a gray-and-black color scheme. Finger additionally said his suggestions were influenced by Lee Falk's extremely popular The Phantom, a syndicated newspaper comic strip character with which Kane was familiar as well; the suggestions included leaving the mask's eyeholes blank to connote mystery."

 

Then it says that DC's editors asked for a sidekick, and Jerry Robinson suggested the name "Robin".

 

So that reduces Kane's contribution to drawing the original story from Tec 27, and the name of the character.

 

Note also that the actual origin panel of Bruce's parents being murdered was a swipe, as recently discussed in the "Bob Kane: Swipe Artist" thread in this very forum.

 

I shall stop now, since I've made myself dizzy through continually shaking my head as I've researched this.

[ciorac]

Kane also took all the credit for the creation of Batman when it probably really belonged more to Bill Finger. Don't believe he drew a single line or wrote a single word after the first year or so of Batman. Kane was really unable to draw or write anywhere close to what the ghosts in his studio were able to. As a result, he simply sat back, let them do all the work while he collected all of the money and credit.

.

 

While I agree with you that Bill Finger was a major contributor to the early success of Batman and should be given enormous credit, Kane should not be stripped of all credit. To imply such is absurd. In fact, as you mentioned he was the primary artist/writer for the first year of the character. Wasn't that the best year Batman had in the Golden Age? After Robin came along, Batman became cartoonish shortly thereafter.. I always preferred the somewhat shadowy, crudely drawn Batman of the first 11 issues. Thankfully they returned to that style beginning with Adams (with much better aart of course!). Certainly Adams was influenced by the Kane era.

 

ciroac;

 

From my earlier statement, I did not meant that Kane should be stripped of all credits for the creation of Batman. I was implying that the creation of Batman should probably be attributed to Finger and Kane (or vice versa), similar to how Superman has now been rightfully attributed to Siegal and Shuster.

 

It should also be pointed out that Kane was most likely not the driving force behind the initial dark and moody Batman look. Apparently when Kane was asked to come up with a customed hero over the weekend, his initial concept was a bright red costumed hero with wings called "Bird-Man" or something silly like that. Only upon input from his friend, Bill Finger, was the concept changed to a darker, more mysterious pulp-like figure. It was Finger who actually initially thought up the Bat-Man concept.

 

Apparently, it were these preliminary ideas and sketches that Kane then presented to the DC editors on Monday morning who then gave the go-ahead for a six-page story. Being the sly and crafty businessman, Kane failed to mentioned the input from Finger, refused the standard page rate payment, sought legal advice to cut a better deal for himself, and never mentioned the long-term deal to Finger.

 

Apparently the cover for the first Batmen story ('Tec 27) was not even drawn by Kane as the art style did not match Kane's clunky artistic look. In addition, the artist for the second Batman story has not yet been identified, but Jerry Robinson was clearly on board by the third issue. Based upon this, Kane was clearly responsible for the first issue interiors, and posibbly some of the subsequent design work in later issues. As a result, I may have been a bit too generous in my initial statement regarding Kane's involvement with the first year of Batman, as his primary direct invlovement may have only been limited to the first issue.

 

I am sure that there are many conflicting viewpoints as to the entent of Kane's involement with Batman, including apparently, many conflicting and shifting after the fact stories by Kane himself. Just sad to see that Kane was able to live the life of a wealthy playboy while Finger died in poverty and never receiving the credit that he deserved.

 

We are basically in agreement. I believe, and Shelly Moldoff told me this himself, that Kane drew all of the interior art for Batman in 27 - 35. 36 is clearly not Kane, at least not completely. After that, who knows for sure. Shelly knew Kane as well as anybody, and had been working around DC prior to Detective 27. The art in 27 -35 is either Kane, or someone who drew JUST like him, which I doubt. For the record, I like Kane's "clunky" artistic work in those early issues. I think they are emblematic of the crudeness of the era and reek of the golden age.

 

In the same I way I appreciate and prefer Ditko's quirky Spiderman over the much more talented "artistically" John Romita.

 

Like my grandpappy used to say, "That's why they make Fords AND Chevys.

 

History is littered with stories of how someone took the brass ring when offered, leaving friends in the dust. Kane may have been a jerk for doing it, but who are we to judge?

 

Kane has his own version, Finger has his, Robinson has his, Shelly has his, they all can't be completely right or completely wrong. None of us were there (including Bob Beerbohm), so we can only have opinions.

 

Here is Kane's'...

 

Kane's Letter to Biljo

[lou_fine]

Kane and Marston were the only people to originally get rights to the characters. No body else got rights. Not Seigal and shuster(Superman), Not Nodel(Alan Scott), not Bernard Baily(Hourman), Not EE Hibbard or Carmine Infantino(Flash) nor Creig Flessel( Crimson avengers and Sandman) Now body got rights.

 

From what I have read, this is basically correct except for the fact that Siegel & Shuster did apparently have some monetary rights to the non-comic book Superman related products. Only problem was that Jack Liebowitz was a real numbers man and always able to show the company in a loss situation meaning that S&S's share of the proceeds were still a big fat zero. Jack, however, always tossed them a monetary bone to defuse the situation every time Jerry raised the issue. Actually, Jerry really should have asked for an official audit of the numbers instead of just taking Jack's word for it and stomping off in an angry mood.

 

Siegel & Shuster could have also approached Donefeld directly since he was much more of a happy go lucky guy and he probably would have been much more generous to the boys. Might not have made a difference since although Donefeld was the real owner of the company initially, Liebowitz was the guiding light and the one who really ran the company. Donefeld was too busy having a good time with the ladies and running with the boys through his mob connections. Siegel & Shuster really lost everything when they lost their initial lawsuit in the late 40's since they were viewed as being disloyal to the company and cut off from any further DC work.

 

From a business point of view, Liebowitz is the classic story of somebody going from rags to riches and making it on his own. Built up DC's network of companies from scratch, acquired the distribution rights to Playboy and Mad when they were just starting up, instrumental in the development and distribution of pocket books, driving force behind the TV series and various Superman licensing deals, took the company public in the 60's, etc. A real workaholic and still active on the board through the Warners, Time-Life, and Turner acquisitions. Apparently had a net worth in the hundreds of million of dollars and a real philanthropist.

 

Unfortuantely, none of it went to Siegel & Shuster or to any of the other creators of the comic books.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I interviewed Irwin Donenfeld over a couple year span for some 18 recorded hours plus brought him to San Diego comicon for a two hour stage interview co-hosted with Mark Evanier

 

Irwin was adamant Siegel & Shuster were well takeb care of financially in the 1940s, that their contract was re-written to reflect the Bob Kane deal for the 10 years it ran until 1948

 

If Jerry had never opted to sue Donenfeld, they would have continued to share in profits

 

The boys received some half a million dollars each in the 1940s from DC National

 

The boys got ALL the money from the news paper strip with its 20 million readers

 

They got all the money from the Fleischer cartoons

 

Bob Kane got royalties

 

Simon & Kirby got royalties, even after going off to war, from Boy Commandos

 

Irwin told me Joe Shuster had eye operations in the 1940s as he was going blind which Harry, his dad, paid for

 

After the law suit was settled way back when, Jerry & Joe lost out, but each time i brought up aspects, Irwin would bristle, defend his dad, saying Jerry & Joe would have been well taken care of, if they had not sued

 

bob beerbohm