What do you love and what do you hate about pedigrees?

[fantastic_four]

For most of the three years I've been back in collecting, I haven't liked the concept of a pedigree much. I really don't like most subtle sales and marketing tactics, and until recently, I've looked at most pedigrees as pure salesmanship.

 

However, after seeing the incredibly consistent nice material in the Mile High and Western Penn collections, and after hearing the CGC census-topping tales of the Curator collection, I've become a bit more interested in the stories behind the pedigrees. If nothing else, they can be an interesting tale about other collectors like yourself who for whatever reason collected comics, and in most instances, kept them in a lot better shape than most other people around them did.

 

So...do you like or dislike pedigrees, and why?

[murph0]

Like

Being able to know about the history of the book

Glossiness, color, and alround superior look to regular copies

Ability to make a "Western Penn" ASM run.. for example

Knowing you'll get an awesome book

Dislike

Additional multiple ontop of regular CGC multiple

Difficulty of finding some

Fake pedigrees and CGC accepted pedigrees that don't really have any business being considered one.

 

Brian

[Foolkiller]

To me high grade is high grade... although the story behind certain pedigrees is sort of interesting, I can't say that it really makes all that much of a difference to me... it's sort of like saying, hey, this book is naturally better because it's part of the Winnepeg or Oakland collection... I don't think there should be "extra" value attached to them... the Church collection is kind of unique since it's part of the best examples of Golden age books.

 

Pedigrees were always thought of to be the best example of certain kinds of books, and what I think we've seen is that most books, especially Marvels, aren't going to have one grouping of books that are "the best"... there are 9.6s and 9.8s in several collections.

 

When some guy dies with a huge high grade collection are we going to have another "pedigree"... I don't think it really matters.

[murph0]

I think they had far more pertinance pre-CGC b/c you knew you were buying an above avg copy of the book in superior grade. I enjoy knowing where my book is from and about the original owner.. but I certainly wouldn't buy a book just for that info.

 

Brian

[sfilosa]

I've own probably 30 pedigree books from different sources (ie. Mile High, Gaines, White Mountain, Western Penn, Curator, etc.).

 

In most cases I like, and would pay a premium for a pedigree copy because the front and back cover is clean and free of yellowing). It kills me to see books get a NM- or NM grade yet the cover is all yellow. If you look at Heritage's Signature Auction, look at the back covers of most of the White Mountain books. They are WHITE. Now look at the back of many of the non-pedigree books and they don't look the same, even in higher grade. And of course the yellowing really stinks on white cover keys like DD #1, Avengers #4, etc.

 

I agree that some pedigrees should not really be called pedigrees. PLUS, just because CGC notes a "NAME" doesn't necessarily make that a pedigree. Example, Harvey "FILE COPY". While the covers of most of these books have great colors and gloss, the back covers look yellowed and the page quality is low. I don't consider it a pedigree.

 

So, do I pay more for a pedigree? If it from a pedigree that I like, yes I do.

[shadroch]

I think a pedigreed book from a known owner is kind of neat. I'd rather have a book that Stan Lee or Jack Kirby used as a reference than something owned by some guy in the white mountains. With the advent of CGC I expected demand for the lesser graded pedigrees to slow to a trickle, but that doesn't seem to be happening.As in just about everything CGC has done,with the exception to this board, they are just not consistent enough on what gets pedigreed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Which pedigrees do you think shouldn't be well-known but are, and why do you think they're not worthy of the designation?

[Kevin76]

There is a differance between collection and pedigree,Brian. Nicholas Cage had a Collection, that is why you see "FROM the collection of Nic Cage" not Allentown,Boston,Mile High ect...Mile High 2 is not a pedigree,just a warehouse find.Anyway,Back to the real pedigrees' Boston books are really nice,no writing or date stamps,just nice off white to white pages,nice crisp copies.It's neat that people have saved books from a time when no one else did and amassed an amazing collection in high grade.Pedigrees are over rated sometimes,I'd pay a little more for the pedigree but not crazy money,If i find a book in 9.4 that has the same page quality and looks just as nice as the pedigree,I'll take the non-pedigree for a cheaper price.It doesn't matter to me if the book is a pedigree or not.If it is,it's a bonus.I'm not inot paying an extra 1000.00 to get a Label.

[fantastic_four]

I agree about not overpaying just for the pedigree designation. The stories behind them are sometimes interesting, and they might help bias me towards buying a given book as opposed to not buying it, but it doesn't matter enough to pay more for it unless the grade warrants it.

[sfilosa]

The best arguement I ever heard regarding paying more for a pedigee is this:

 

One person could have a run of ASM issue #10-20 all CGC NM.

Another person could have a run of ASM issue #10-20 all CGC NM from say the Western Penn collection.

 

There would a uniformity to the look of the Western Penn run, but probably not to the non-pedigree (pieced together) run.

 

Therefore, seeing several books in a run from a pedigree collection creates a "sum is greater than the parts" run.

 

BUT AS A SIDE NOTE, I really do believe that all graders (including CGC) are more likely to overgrade a book slightly, if they know it comes from a pedigree collection.

 

[clobberintime]

I think pedigrees should be obsolete if CGC is doing their job. It is neat to know about these weirdo collectors who were so anal and bizarre about how they preserved their 10 cent treasures, but as far as pusuing the collections etc. I think it is a waste of money and effort if you are buying cgc books in high grade. PresumABLY A CGC 9.4 wHITE mTN SHOULD BE AS nice as a 9.4 Pacific Coast right? And a 9.4 Pedigree should have the same quality as a 9.4 from the collection of Irving Forbush or Joe Blow. That is what professional grading is supposed to be about. also one would assume that books from a pedigree would be restoration free. Now, everyone accepts that cgc can check for this safely. Nowadays I think pedigrees are the province of the big spenders who want bragging rights. I have a few books from just about all the different real pedigrees and they look no nicer than the other 9.2 to 9.6 books I have. Some even have full names written on the cover! Yet they are still considered high grade.

[Mushroom]

I love pedigrees. For me....it is the whole providence/story angle. I like looking at a group of books and thinking that some guy built that collection. Let's face it..these collections weren't put together for CGC purposes or for flipping purposes or for any profit motive. They bought them cause they loved comics. The fact that they kept them in such pristine condition is lucky for us.

 

Every time I see a red date stamp on an SA book I think Bethlehem

 

 

[aardvark88]

I don't like the silver DC or Marvel "file copies" that Danny Dupchak (Fantazia) sold many years ago to big time hi-grade collector/dealers. They were resold to unsupecting collectors as silver age file copies. The books were shorter than normal on all 3 sides so they could fit into the file cabinet.

[Aman619]

CGC had already diminished the importance and reliance on pedigrees to guarantee a comic in high grade. Its obvious that a 9.6 no-name book is better than a White Mountain 9.4 (Im assuming that reliance on CGC's standard and fair grading of both on their merits is a given...) And that if both were 9.4s, you could save money on the non-pedigree and not have an "inferior book" since they are both the same grade.

 

I think its a shame since Pedigrees were cool books to have and conveyed confidence in the buyer that he was buying a quality book. But if the grade is the thing, pedigrees will mean less and less to the price of th ebook,

[greggy]

Which pedigrees do you think shouldn't be well-known but are, and why do you think they're not worthy of the designation?

 

In terms of CGC pedigrees and not necessarily well accepted pedigrees, one that boggles the mind is the Bowling Green collection. Personally, the best book that I have seen from this collection on eBay is an Amazing Spider-man 100 CGC 9.8. I have seen some mid-grade Silver DCs but no major high grade keys. Personally, I feel that in order to be considered a Silver Age pedigree, the collection should have most of the Silver Age major keys in relatively high grade. I'm sure that the Western Penn has all the major keys but the only early Marvel #1 that I've seen sold from the collection was a Daredevil 1 that was sold raw by Chris Cole in early 2000 for around $5,500. He told me via EMAIL that he heard that it was graded a CGC 9.6.

 

Using the criteria that it should have the major keys, one could argue that the Boston and the Oakland copies may not be deserving. I love both of these collections, as they have a real nice selection of high grade DCs from the mid 1960s to the early 1970s. But what major key is in these collections? Just my 2 cents. Comments?

[murph0]

Let's not forget the Ohio pedigree.. from what I've seen the only books in this are mid-grade (6.0-7.5) ASM's in the 20-40 area.. and an 8.5 Cap book.

 

Brian

[500Club]

For most of the three years I've been back in collecting, I haven't liked the concept of a pedigree much. I really don't like most subtle sales and marketing tactics, and until recently, I've looked at most pedigrees as pure salesmanship.

 

However, after seeing the incredibly consistent nice material in the Mile High and Western Penn collections, and after hearing the CGC census-topping tales of the Curator collection, I've become a bit more interested in the stories behind the pedigrees. If nothing else, they can be an interesting tale about other collectors like yourself who for whatever reason collected comics, and in most instances, kept them in a lot better shape than most other people around them did.

 

So...do you like or dislike pedigrees, and why?

 

I agree with you, James. The stories and history attached to pedigrees are their biggest drawing card at this point. At one time, a pedigree was a reassurance of quality, but CGC has pretty much made the need for this reassurance redundant.

[sfilosa]

Like I said before, more than likely, a pedigree book will have less natual aging than a non-pedigree book even in the same condition.

 

I don't assume that a 9.6 is necessarily a better book. It is only better based on CGC criteria, which many people including myself don't always agree with.

 

I would much rather have a Daredevil #1 in NM-(9.2) with a nice white cover than a NM (9.4) with a lot of yellowing. Would I PAY more for the NM, YES, because I know someone out there will pay more for it. Would I rather have the NM- in my collection, YES, because its "eye appeal" will be better.

 

And that is what most pedigree books have "EYE APPEAL".

[COI]

But what major key is in these collections? Just my 2 cents. Comments?

 

Greggy, it's impossible to determine unless you can find complete lists of these collections. It took the DD #7 Western P.A, and a few other random auctions(like the STT #136 I bought and sold) for me to realize that Western Penn extended that far back. I find gathering info on these collections difficult(although I haven't really pursued it) and because the best stuff will generally be sold privately and not be seen on the open Market, I would hesitate to try to peg a collection solely based on what has been seen.

[greggy]

But what major key is in these collections? Just my 2 cents. Comments?

 

Greggy, it's impossible to determine unless you can find complete lists of these collections. It took the DD #7 Western P.A, and a few other random auctions(like the STT #136 I bought and sold) for me to realize that Western Penn extended that far back. I find gathering info on these collections difficult(although I haven't really pursued it) and because the best stuff will generally be sold privately and not be seen on the open Market, I would hesitate to try to peg a collection solely based on what has been seen.

 

Yeah...I understand that the Western Penn collection probably has the major keys . The first time that I heard about the Western Penn collection was in around 1992 when Keith Contarino was praising the collection as the only Silver Age collection to date to deserve be be pedigreed. He mentioned a structurally perfect Strange Tales 110 that he downgraded to NM- due to Marvel yellowing.

 

But, I strongly doubt that the Boston or the Oakland collection has any major keys. I'm pretty sure about the Oakland collection. Belcharra told me that the original owner of the Boston collection started buying 5-6 copies of every DC and Marvel in around 1965. The books in this collection are really nice no doubt but does if deserve being pedigreed if there are no major keys?