To Be A Gerber "9" Or Not To Be, That Is The Question!

[esquirecomics]

Hardly ever see All-Negro comics. Disagree with All-American #4. Think Ian Levine had a much harder time finding All-American #2. After he scoured the Earth, I sold him my 2 incomplete copies so he could rebuild them into 1 complete #2.

 

There is an All-Negro comics on ebay right now. Only $6,000!

 

All Negro Comics

[action1kid]

In my experience[only] I would give [All Negro # 1]... a Peter 8.

[rjpb]

I'm sure if Famous Funnies #82 started selling for crazy money , the floodgates would open.

 

It's often difficult to seperate absolute scarcity from lack of availability for purchase. As we have all seen, many formerly "rare" books that had been locked up in collections, suddenly become readily available when the price gets high enough.

[Theagenes]

That is a fantastic book! It just hit my want list!

 

Yeah, it's a great cover, totally overlooked IMO. If I had an undercopy I would be happy to sell it to you. Believe me it's not for a lack of looking. If I had seen any more for sale in the last couple of years I guarantee I would have had 2 or 3 copies to post in the "Double your Pleasure" thread.

[Theagenes]

I'm sure if Famous Funnies #82 started selling for crazy money , the floodgates would open.

 

It's often difficult to seperate absolute scarcity from lack of availability for purchase. As we have all seen, many formerly "rare" books that had been locked up in collections, suddenly become readily available when the price gets high enough.

 

I agree, that this is the most likely explanation for it's apparent scarcity. It has a cool enough cover that owners would rather just keep it instead of selling it for the peanuts that the guide says it's worth. If the price were raised we'd see more of them I'm sure.

 

Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd try gifflefunk's market scarcity formula on this issue. According to a memo found in the 90's (See CBM 36, p. 34), Famous Funnies had a print run of 180,000 in 1942 (#82 is 5/41). If you put the number of copies in existence at around 100, which would put it in the middle of the Gerber 6 range (which is more likely IMO than it's listed Gerber 5 rating) and say that 1 a year is available (I saw 3 in 3 years) than it would come out like this:

 

A=180,000

B=100

C=1

 

M={[(A-B)/A]+[(B-C)/B]}/2

 

M={[(180,000 - 100) / 180,000] + [(100-1) / 100]} / 2

 

M={[179900 / 180000] + [99 / 100]} / 2

 

M={.99944 + .99} / 2

 

M=.994722

[bmxman]

]

 

There is an All-Negro comics on ebay right now. Only $6,000!

 

All Negro Comics

 

I have 2 copies so far. I have been trying to get this one but the seller is pretty unreasonable. I have serious doubts about their grading accuracy...D

[ciorac]

]

 

There is an All-Negro comics on ebay right now. Only $6,000!

 

All Negro Comics

 

I have 2 copies so far. I have been trying to get this one but the seller is pretty unreasonable. I have serious doubts about their grading accuracy...D

 

One look at the scan should cement the fact that he can't grade to save his life.

[esquirecomics]

 

Can any of these books from Volume 1 be eliminated outright as a Gerber "9" (if I missed any, please add it):

 

(7) Captain Aero Comics #9

 

Picked up a copy from one of our fellow board members. Rockford copy, and apparently the issue used for the supplemental photo that was issued years after the Photo Journals (where it is not pictured).

 

 

[ashrael]

Very nice!

[Monster's Coll]

 

Can any of these books from Volume 1 be eliminated outright as a Gerber "9" (if I missed any, please add it):

 

(7) Captain Aero Comics #9

 

Picked up a copy from one of our fellow board members. Rockford copy, and apparently the issue used for the supplemental photo that was issued years after the Photo Journals (where it is not pictured).

 

 

Since I thought I could offer a little info on this topic, I figured I would post about it. For several years, I scoured the country looking for the rarest and 'coolest cover' books. Practically every day I would spend hours on the phone, travelling to and from cons (stopping in every little comic shop along the way) and running ads, etc trying to find these books. Bear in mind, I always offered multiples of guide to help 'ferret' these books out.

 

This all being said, for the books I was really after, I found out in short order what was truly rare and what wasn't.

 

As far as particulars in this thread, so far, the Rockford Capt Aero #9 that Mark pictured above, I bought out of the run when Vincent Z. and Carbonaro brought the first of the Rockford books to the Novi show. That was the first copy I had ever seen - and by far the nicest. After that, I found 2 others, but both were low grade. It is a truly tough book. A '9', not sure, but I would feel comfortable calling it an '8'.

 

Take my word for this, Catman #13 is rare. It has always been expensive/sought after and that still has not brought out many copies over the years. #9 is like most other pre-Cole covers = very tough (7), but by far and away the rarest issue is #15. I helped put together one of the only complete runs of Catmans and the #15 was absolutely impossible until Metro came up with a copy around 2000. The only other copy that I have ever seen is the MH which sold in Heritage, which is the only graded copy. I would feel comfortable saying it's a true '9', maybe, dare I say it, '10'.

 

The only Ernie Gerber story I have to relate is 1 year I was set-up at SD Con, an older gentleman stopped in front of the booth and had what I would consider a blank stare on his face. I asked him if I could help him with anything and he replied that he had never seen so many of the books that motivated him to make the photojournals as sitting on the wall in front of him. I explained to him that it was his PJs that prompted me to collect/deal in these books to begin with and that it was a passion of mine to bring as many of these books 'out' so others could enjoy them as well.

 

We talked about a number of them that he had never seen before, as I had most of the 'un-pictured' books on the wall, along with multiple copies of most of the best covers: Punch #12, Suspense #3, Capt Flight #12, Fight Against Crime #20, etc...

 

He thanked me for being able to look at them all and left to check out more books around the con.

 

I had no idea he died. I'm very sorry to hear that...

 

If there are other specific books in the pre-code, cool cover, or early pre-40 era that are of question as to scarcity, that's what I primarily was after and have a little experience with.

[esquirecomics]

Great post! (thumbs u

 

Anyone with experience in collecting these scarce/rare books knows how, understandably, flawed some of the data might be within the Gerber books. Overall Ernie did pretty well though given the footwork that needed to be done.

 

I would submit that, other than for some of the warehouse finds that eviscerated the earlier notions of scarcity of a book, what needs to be modified is not the Gerber re-designation of a book from the "9" category to an "8", but more likely simply a redefinition of what constitutes a "9" or an "8", i.e., less than 5 copies becomes less than 10 copies, less than 20 copies becomes less than 50 copies, etc.

[MrBedrock]

Ken,

Nice tribute to Gerber, but something about this line just doesn't sound right...

I explained to him that it was his PJs that prompted me

Didn't Bruce Wayne say the same thing about Grayson?

[Straw-Man]

Ken,

Nice tribute to Gerber, but something about this line just doesn't sound right...

I explained to him that it was his PJs that prompted me

Didn't Bruce Wayne say the same thing about Grayson?

 

all wrong; it was the tights that made Bruce's tiddly wink, not the baggy pj's.

[Monster's Coll]

Ken,

Nice tribute to Gerber, but something about this line just doesn't sound right...

I explained to him that it was his PJs that prompted me

Didn't Bruce Wayne say the same thing about Grayson?

 

Ya know... Carey made an off-handed remark about some intimate knowledge of YOUR PJs, but I never brought THAT up before! That's for calling me out, Richard...

[Blind Owl]

Great post! (thumbs u

 

Anyone with experience in collecting these scarce/rare books knows how, understandably, flawed some of the data might be within the Gerber books. Overall Ernie did pretty well though given the footwork that needed to be done.

 

I would submit that, other than for some of the warehouse finds that eviscerated the earlier notions of scarcity of a book, what needs to be modified is not the Gerber re-designation of a book from the "9" category to an "8", but more likely simply a redefinition of what constitutes a "9" or an "8", i.e., less than 5 copies becomes less than 10 copies, less than 20 copies becomes less than 50 copies, etc.

 

Not sure if I follow you here!!! I'm not a lawyer!!!

 

But if you're talking about books being discovered that were once considered "9's" are now plentiful enough to designated as "8's" then to me they are now "8's". Nothing needs to be changed except the fact that these '9's" are no longer "9's" but now "8's". Am I making sense, or am I just too tired coming home from work to make sense???

[esquirecomics]

Great post! (thumbs u

 

Anyone with experience in collecting these scarce/rare books knows how, understandably, flawed some of the data might be within the Gerber books. Overall Ernie did pretty well though given the footwork that needed to be done.

 

I would submit that, other than for some of the warehouse finds that eviscerated the earlier notions of scarcity of a book, what needs to be modified is not the Gerber re-designation of a book from the "9" category to an "8", but more likely simply a redefinition of what constitutes a "9" or an "8", i.e., less than 5 copies becomes less than 10 copies, less than 20 copies becomes less than 50 copies, etc.

 

Not sure if I follow you here!!! I'm not a lawyer!!!

 

But if you're talking about books being discovered that were once considered "9's" are now plentiful enough to designated as "8's" then to me they are now "8's". Nothing needs to be changed except the fact that these '9's" are no longer "9's" but now "8's". Am I making sense, or am I just too tired coming home from work to make sense???

 

Ok, let me try it this way.

 

Basically if you look at the list of books that Gerber had as "9" and "10", you would have very, very few books still remaining in those categories either because they don't fit the criteria of scarcity that Gerber had created or due to the fact that they likely shouldn't be included there in the first place (i.e., ashcans).

 

I would submit we still want books that we can discuss on a scarcity/rarity scale of "1" - "10", or "11" as it were, which means we need to adjust the # of copies that fit within that criteria rather than simply moving books down the list to the next numbered category.

 

Does that work?

[Blind Owl]

Hi Mark, I think I understand what you're trying to get at!!!

Correct me please;

 

If I find a bundle of 50 copies of Jumbo 31 (Gerber 9), are you telling me it's still a Gerber 9 but now the Scarcity Index is raised to 50 more copies, so 5-10 copies is no longer the criteria for a Gerber 9 book.

 

If you're saying that, why not just make Jumbo 31 a Gerber 6 book because 50 more exist than what was thought previously. This way every time we discover books all we do is change the Gerber scarcity index only on that particular book.

 

I don't see where it matters if they are Ashcans (Gerber 10's) or whatever they are. If I find 10 more Action 1 ashcans, guess what, it's now a Gerber 7.

 

Maybe we're still talking Apples & Oranges here. I have worked a lot today and am a little tired!!!

Is this what you are saying???

 

[lou_fine]

If I find a bundle of 50 copies of Jumbo 31 (Gerber 9), are you telling me it's still a Gerber 9 but now the Scarcity Index is raised to 50 more copies, so 5-10 copies is no longer the criteria for a Gerber 9 book.

 

If you're saying that, why not just make Jumbo 31 a Gerber 6 book because 50 more exist than what was thought previously. This way every time we discover books all we do is change the Gerber scarcity index only on that particular book.

 

Is this what you are saying???

 

No, what your are trying to say is to change the SI rating for a particular indivisual book only if there is actual evidence of more copies than Gerber's index.

 

What Mark is saying and I agree with him, is that based upon what we know today compard to when Ernie put the index together back in the early 90's, there are just more copies of all GA books in existence than initially thought. As a result, the simplest way to correct the SI ratings is to change the overall number of books designated for each SI category.

 

A quick and simple way to fix the SI index as opposed to correcting the SI rating for each individual book. (thumbs u

[esquirecomics]

Hi Mark, I think I understand what you're trying to get at!!!

Correct me please;

 

If I find a bundle of 50 copies of Jumbo 31 (Gerber 9), are you telling me it's still a Gerber 9 but now the Scarcity Index is raised to 50 more copies, so 5-10 copies is no longer the criteria for a Gerber 9 book.

 

If you're saying that, why not just make Jumbo 31 a Gerber 6 book because 50 more exist than what was thought previously. This way every time we discover books all we do is change the Gerber scarcity index only on that particular book.

 

I don't see where it matters if they are Ashcans (Gerber 10's) or whatever they are. If I find 10 more Action 1 ashcans, guess what, it's now a Gerber 7.

 

Maybe we're still talking Apples & Oranges here. I have worked a lot today and am a little tired!!!

Is this what you are saying???

 

The confusion is probably because I am not speaking in absolutes. There is actually a combination of thoughts I have here that need to be applied. Let me try and spell it out more succinctly.

 

First, I don't believe ashcans should be included because they really don't fit into the appropriate category of published comics. Action #1 had at least 300,000 copies made, of which approximately 100-150 are believed to exist. So, perhaps .0005% remain. The Nickel Comics ashcan had probably 3-5 copies created of which 2 are known to exist, which is 40% to 67% of the population The ashcans were automatically Gerber "10"s from the very day they were created. Sure, it is true that a book that has 3 copies in existence out of 1,000,000 is just as rare as a book that has 3 copies in existence out of 3, but the significance is different. I view them as a special category.

 

Second, my reasoning for modifying the Gerber ranges stems from the general perception that just about every book he addressed in 1989 actually has more copies in 2008 than suspected or known. The rarity/scarcity factor has modified as a general rule for all of the categories and books. That needs to be re-evaluated. We still need Gerber "9"s and "10"s, but there are basically none left. We still need books that are rare and scarce, but what those terms mean in the comic community simply need redefinition.

 

Third, once the category numbers are re-evaluated if there are significant shifts, such as you describe where 10-50 copies of a book are located, than that book needs to move downward into another category. I am not advocating continually shifting the numbers all the time, but the Gerber index has not been modified since it first came out and it needs to be.

 

Finally, I am just writing these thoughts basically off the top of my head so there may be better ideas out there. These is just my initial thought on the subject.

 

[Blind Owl]

Thanks Lou, for clearing it up for me!!! (thumbs u

 

That does make sense!!! Now who's gonna fix it!!!

 

Think I need another Black 'N' Tan now!!!