Doug's Fantastic Fours 103-200

[THE_BEYONDER]

Miswrapped books with white at the spine do better at cgc. They don't fault you for the miswrap and at the same time any spine stress is much harder to see against the white. So you actually have a system where miswraps, IMO, get better grades

 

All anyone has to do is hold the book at an angle to the light to see spine breaks on that white spine. Of course...these miswrapped books are great candidates for pressing as there is no color to break on the spine.

[Silver Surfer]

I hate miswrapped books myself, rather have a sharp 9.6 than a miswrapped 9.8. The #198 and #189 I picked up are sole top census books and great covers so I'm all over them for $150 a pop. #147 is one of two books but this one is from the Winnipeg collection which I am a big fan of and its another great cover. For me the price was right as these books really bring me back to my first days of collecting. High grade BA books with some of my favorite series growing up are as special to me as my GA collection and I'm sure I could recover my money on these if I had to sell them.

[MutantKeys]

Miswrapped books with white at the spine do better at cgc. They don't fault you for the miswrap and at the same time any spine stress is much harder to see against the white. So you actually have a system where miswraps, IMO, get better grades

 

All anyone has to do is hold the book at an angle to the light to see spine breaks on that white spine. Of course...these miswrapped books are great candidates for pressing as there is no color to break on the spine.

[Foolkiller]

A couple points on some of the issues being brought up - if these books are really only "one or two census updates" from being matched/surpassed on the census, at these prices, we'll find out soon enough! However, the census is pretty mature now, unlike 5-6 years ago when every high grade book submitted was coming back top census.

 

Pre-CGC, multiples were being paid for a NM+ copy versus a NM- copy, and as one dealer's NM+ could easily be another dealers NM-, the inconsistency was even worse pre-CGC, yet the multiples were still being paid. Collectors want the best, and are apparently putting more stock in CGC's take on what constitutes the best than they used to put in Metros/Four Colors/PCEs/etc.,. take on it. I think unless one really collects the uber-grades (raw or not), it's difficult to differentiate between a 9.4, 9.6, and a 9.8 - but at some point copy "X" will indeed be better than copy "Y", even if it's only due to a 1/32" corner crease difference.

 

Yes multiples were being paid, but not at nearly the craziness you see now. Here's the issue with the current state of the market: you now have an even worse situation because the standard (CGC) has set what the 9.8 or 9.6 or whatever is the given grade across the board. People now believe there is a number to chase as a uniform marker for what is "the best" grade. When in fact this doesn't really exist to me. Yes, someone assigned a number, and yes, somebody has bought into the fact that a book exists in 9.8 -- but if in the subjective world of grading, this 9.8 may not look as nice as other 9.8s, but still a top price is paid -- why? because it has that "number" on it.

 

I have looked at many, many 9.6s v. 9.8s and many times the 9.6 is the better book. The problem I have isn't with the theoretical concept that a 9.8 is better than a 9.6 but that it can be determined with any real consistency.

 

The problem with the Mercedes argument Roy is that the person overpaying for the Mercedes still gets a Mercedes. The person buying a CGC 9.8 "might" be getting a really nice 9.8 book, or may be getting a loosely graded book that would grade at resub lower. The problem is once you get into those upper tiers that exceed 9.4 or 9.6 I challenge whether it can really be discerned with any kind of consistency... if you look at the evidence we have (the 9.8 books themselves) the answer is a resounding no. My next question is, if you can't tell a 9.8 with consistency, why pay huge multiples to get something that may not even really be what it purports to be, beyond simply the certification and a label with a number on it.

 

I saw those prices being paid for the 9.8 FFs and just thought -- well, someone must really want high grade copies -- and that's all well and good -- so long as the buyer doesn't think they are truly buying "the best".

[Davenport]

A couple points on some of the issues being brought up - if these books are really only "one or two census updates" from being matched/surpassed on the census, at these prices, we'll find out soon enough! However, the census is pretty mature now, unlike 5-6 years ago when every high grade book submitted was coming back top census.

 

That same FF 107 was listed in his September 2004 Market Report as selling for $1050 :

"Fantastic Four 107 9.8 1,050 0083487001"

 

If the sales are legit it's not exactly a huge investment windfall to gain a couple of hundred bucks a couple of years later, before paying any consignment fees.

 

What doesn't make sense is Heritage showing Fantastic Four #107 Pacific Coast pedigree CGC NM+ 9.6 White pages $293.25

So in the wacky world of HG collecting a 9.6 Pedigree is $300, but a 9.8 is $1300???

[Monstro]

what would be in it for cgc to give that book a 9.8?

cause there is no way they looked at that book with

the chip, the blunted llc and the miswrap and decided

it should be a 9.8.

[nik]

Well said.

 

Its not always about how much but more about nostalgia for me. Do I think paying crazy money for 9.8s is ridiculous, absolutely.

 

Do I pay sometimes crazy money for 9.8s, absolutely.

 

Loved these books growing up and when I have a chance to pick up one that means something, or brings back memories and is in HG, if I can afford it at the time, I will buy it.

 

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

[brasseye]

A couple points on some of the issues being brought up - if these books are really only "one or two census updates" from being matched/surpassed on the census, at these prices, we'll find out soon enough! However, the census is pretty mature now, unlike 5-6 years ago when every high grade book submitted was coming back top census.

 

Pre-CGC, multiples were being paid for a NM+ copy versus a NM- copy, and as one dealer's NM+ could easily be another dealers NM-, the inconsistency was even worse pre-CGC, yet the multiples were still being paid. Collectors want the best, and are apparently putting more stock in CGC's take on what constitutes the best than they used to put in Metros/Four Colors/PCEs/etc.,. take on it. I think unless one really collects the uber-grades (raw or not), it's difficult to differentiate between a 9.4, 9.6, and a 9.8 - but at some point copy "X" will indeed be better than copy "Y", even if it's only due to a 1/32" corner crease difference.

 

DrB, I like your comments, I would just like to add that because the discrepancy between a 9.4/9.6/9.8 is quite small in some intances. That people are not flocking to slab books from the bronze age, particuarly from such a heavily collected, and abundant title. But once they do reach slabbing, the chances of other 9.8's turning up is fairly good from my observations.

So yes we do have a maturing census. No new super pedigree's, nearly every top census spot filled, or in most cases brimming with examples. But there's certainly a lot more to come, particularly in the bronze era.

[burntboy]

Well said.

 

Its not always about how much but more about nostalgia for me. Do I think paying crazy money for 9.8s is ridiculous, absolutely.

 

Do I pay sometimes crazy money for 9.8s, absolutely.

 

Loved these books growing up and when I have a chance to pick up one that means something, or brings back memories and is in HG, if I can afford it at the time, I will buy it.

 

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

 

 

 

Nik; you are wise beyond your years.......................

 

Surfers rationale resonates with me, as well..............

[skybolt]

I've given up purchasing any 9.8 graded books unless they're priced under $100 (mostly moderns). In my opinion, in the long run, the book has to hold its value whether it's encapsulated or not. If God forbid CGC closes shop after 10 years, and their grades become somewhat obsolete, would these books still fetch 10, 20, 30 times guide due to the 9.8 label!? I'd personally rather not take the chance.

[joe_collector]

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

 

I agree to a point, but cars are totally different than CGC comics. One has a real-world use (even a Mercedes can get you to the supermarket), while the other does not (unless you need to prop up a table). Heck, even paintings can be used to decorate your home.

 

Slabbed comics can only be compared to similar items like graded sportscards, toys, and other collectibles, that provide intrinsic value, but have no real-world use.

[brasseye]

Though worth noting, why did Doug pick 103 and up?

It's the first Bronze age book for the title.

 

He knows what everyone else knows all too well.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

 

What we're actually talking about here is one person buying a Merc for $45,000 and another person buying exactly the same Merc with additional back seat foot mats for $225,000.

 

Oh, and when the Merc goes in for service, you're very likely to find that the foot mats have been taken back.

 

That is the stupidity.

[skybolt]

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

 

I agree to a point, but cars are totally different than CGC comics. One has a real-world use (even a Mercedes can get you to the supermarket), while the other does not (unless you need to prop up a table). Heck, even paintings can be used to decorate your home.

 

Slabbed comics can only be compared to similar items like sportscards, toys, and other collectibles, that provide intrinsic value, but have no real-world use.

 

I can certainly understand the nostalgia involved in picking up the best existing copy. However, the car analogy does not relate here. Choosing between a 9.4 and a 9.8 copy of a given issue is not the same as choosing between a Honda Civic and a Mercedes. It's more like chossing between a new Mercedes, vs. paying 5 times extra for a brand spankin new Mercedes (of the same model) with extra shine!

[skybolt]

Sorry F_T, you're one step ahead of me.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I've given up purchasing any 9.8 graded books unless they're priced under $100 (mostly moderns). In my opinion, in the long run, the book has to hold its value whether it's encapsulated or not. If God forbid CGC closes shop after 10 years, and their grades become somewhat obsolete, would these books still fetch 10, 20, 30 times guide due to the 9.8 label!? I'd personally rather not take the chance.

This is a key point, and one everyone buying these books needs to consider.

 

Think about the current market. That FF 107 gets $1300 because it's a CGC 9.8

 

Crack that book out right now & offer it raw...

 

What do you get for it?

 

Not much.

 

If CGC closes shop....the collectors/investors of these "Top Census" copies are the ones who stand to lose their shirts.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Sorry F_T, you're one step ahead of me.

 

 

Now, if I could only get the same advantage on the missus....

[fantastic_four]

However, the census is pretty mature now, unlike 5-6 years ago when every high grade book submitted was coming back top census.

 

It's not mature at all for Bronze books.

 

These prices were higher than I would pay, but a few of the issues made sense to me--I've never seen 10% to 20% of those books in 9.6 or better. That 124 is insane--I couldn't find a copy of that issue in 9.4/9.6 for five years when I was looking regularly, much less 9.8. I've always found the early Bronze Fantastic Four books harder to find than most of the Silver Age issues beyond #40.

 

Were these books listed on the site sold from the moment they were visible? This seems like a run Doug could easily pre-sell at a premium to a collector who didn't want to compete to get them first on the site--that was my first guess as to how they sold when I just saw how high the sale prices were this morning.

[Foolkiller]

Well said.

 

Its not always about how much but more about nostalgia for me. Do I think paying crazy money for 9.8s is ridiculous, absolutely.

 

Do I pay sometimes crazy money for 9.8s, absolutely.

 

Loved these books growing up and when I have a chance to pick up one that means something, or brings back memories and is in HG, if I can afford it at the time, I will buy it.

 

I can use an analogy as to why someone would pay $45k for a vehicle when he can purchase another one for half of that. Simple, some people are willing to pay more for what they consider the finer things in life. Wrong or right, its not my place to critisize them for it.

 

Nik -- to me it's not about the higher quality and the crazy price. It's that if you buy the "higher" quality you many times are not even actually getting something that is in "reality" higher quality. And that's the difference between the car analogy. It's okay to pay $200k for a Bentley, so long as you get the Bentley. In the 9.8 world, i am seeing prices paid for books that are priced liked Bentleys, but really just ordinary BMWs. and sometimes a Chevy.

 

People can spend money on HG, I know I do, but I want quality for my money. Once you cross into the 9.8 world, the books in those slabs reach such a point of inconsistency it becomes problematic, moreover, the tiniest damage (SCS or the like) completely takes the value away from the top end...

[Silver Surfer]

So what is your point to all this?

 

They paid top dollar for books that will in their top census spots, be replicated many times over for those positions with new additions to the census.

So why pay prices the set a bench mark that will never be matched for many years to come!

 

Thought that was already obvious....

 

Maybe, maybe not. I use to own issue #195 before selling it over a year ago and its still the only one at 9.8 in the census. However there are a half dozen copies of issue #199 so who knows. Bottom line is that these books and the series are so popular that if in 5 years another 10 issues show up in the census the market will easily absorb them at similar prices. Someone explain to me why a great cover like issue #214 that presumably would have been preserved by many collecters but has no 9.8's for issue #214 (the 9.8 was damaged, just ask the Beyonder ) after all these years? Maybe people can't be bothered to slabb the book or maybe they are just hard to find but if someone can find one let me know.