Doug's Fantastic Fours 103-200

[brasseye]

One final point. I just picked up a Thor #337 CGC 9.8 on these boards and I have been looking for a copy for a long, long time. According to GPA only one copy has been sold in the last year and a half. Now logic siggest there should be hundreds of them around but do I want to wait another 5 years and hope to scoop a decent looking copy up for cheap, probably not. Whatever floats your boat.

 

Very good point. If not waiting is worth it to you, then buy all means it's a justified spend. But like all collectors you've probably got a 100 books on your want-list, so why grab the first one in front of you when the price isn't that good, and you know eventaully it'll turn up again?

[VintageComics]

Brian (and anyone else) I was just trying to make the point that when money is not an issue, then you can throw rational thinking out the window when it comes finding value in something. It becomes a "who can have the best" shootout. That's all. I was not trying to imply that a 9.8 is a Benz. I can say that cause i drive a $1300 CGC 4.5 Benz.

[Ze-man]

No thats like saying there is nothing wrong with a person spending X amount for an AC #1 in 9.4 or another person spending 10xX amount for an AC #1 in 9.8 if they can afford it.

 

Cars comparisons aside.

 

I agree with Nik on this issue.

 

To try and figure out the how's and whys of buying 9.8 books is folly. Once people are willing to play the 9.8 game, normal rules do not apply. Throw out whatever rational you normally apply when buying because the prices realized for what you get do not make sense.(to me)

 

I think Niko's point was if the person is happy, THAT is what matters. Wether they buy them for personal enjoyment or as an investment does not matter. They know they are greatly overpaying for them, and are still willing to do so for whatever the reason.

 

I personally would not buy a 9.8 unless it was one of the few books I consider a childhood grail that I am constantly looking to upgrade. And if they became available I would probably throw out my normal buying rules and just buy it , because it made me happy.

 

Ze-

[brasseye]

No thats like saying there is nothing wrong with a person spending X amount for an AC #1 in 9.4 or another person spending 10xX amount for an AC #1 in 9.8 if they can afford it.

 

Cars comparisons aside.

 

I agree with Nik on this issue.

 

To try and figure out the how's and whys of buying 9.8 books is folly. Once people are willing to play the 9.8 game, normal rules do not apply. Throw out whatever rational you normally apply when buying because the prices realized for what you get do not make sense.(to me)

 

I think Niko's point was if the person is happy, THAT is what matters. Wether they buy them for personal enjoyment or as an investment does not matter. They know they are greatly overpaying for them, and are still willing to do so for whatever the reason.

 

I personally would not buy a 9.8 unless it was one of the few books I consider a childhood grail that I am constantly looking to upgrade. And if they became available I would probably throw out my normal buying rules and just buy it , because it made me happy.

 

Ze-

 

Great final wrap up!

[joe_collector]

I agree with Nik on this issue.

 

Me too (car comparisons aside), but this is also a free country and if I see something I feel is whacky, I can talk about it to my heart's content.

 

And I do think those prices paid are whacky, and I also truly hope the buyer is independently wealthy.

[Ze-man]

You won't get an argument from me JC.

 

Maybe the buyers are smoking Wacky Tobacky?

 

[drbanner]

However, the census is pretty mature now, unlike 5-6 years ago when every high grade book submitted was coming back top census.

 

It's not mature at all for Bronze books.

 

 

If you look at the number of new "top census" copies of BA FF's appearing in each census update, I bet the '06 numbers will show a dramatic decrease compared to the '02/03/04 numbers. Fortunately, our local superhero Valiantman has the numbers on these, although "Comics graded for the first time during the specified timeframe are not included." I don't know how many issues that would affect, but I bet it's very few, especially after 2002.

 

Here are the numbers for the newest "top census" FF's showing up in the Census for the years 2001 through 2005:

 

In 2001, there were 20 new "top census" FF's in the 100's.

In 2002, there were 43 new "top census" FF's in the 100's.

In 2003, there were 19 new "top census" FF's in the 100's (5 were price variants).

In 2004, there were 14 new "top census" FF's in the 100's (3 were price variants).

In 2005, there were 4 new "top census" FF's in the 100's (2 were price variants).

 

The data for 2006 is not yet available.

 

Interesting...wonder what the Hulk numbers look like? I'll look at those shortly...

[joe_collector]

In 2005, there were 4 new "top census" FF's in the 100's (2 were price variants).

 

Wait a minute, you're actually telling us that in all of 2005, only 2 standard issues reached or matched "census highs"?

 

I call total BS on that one, and I think you're talking about books that SURPASSED the Census High, not ones that added to the current CGC 9.8 Census High stack. That means nothing, as once you reached 9.8-9.9, there's not much room to move up.

 

If three new CGC 9.8's joined the current Census High 9.8 copy, then that is naturally three more new "top census" FF's, right? They're new and they're top census.

[FlyingDonut]

Having had (and sold for a very nice price on Pedigree) many of the top census Bronze Age Fantastic Fours, I can assure you that several of those books are VERY hard to find in uber-high grade. Even 9.6s in certain issues (155, 163, 169) are tough because of the black covers. Are those 9.8 prices a good "investment"? - not at all, as they have remained essentially flat for a couple of years, but those mythical "batches and batches" of high grade books I just don't see out there. Further, high grade RAW copies of Bronze Age FFs have gone through the roof.

[Foolkiller]

No thats like saying there is nothing wrong with a person spending X amount for an AC #1 in 9.4 or another person spending 10xX amount for an AC #1 in 9.8 if they can afford it.

 

Cars comparisons aside.

 

I agree with Nik on this issue.

 

To try and figure out the how's and whys of buying 9.8 books is folly. Once people are willing to play the 9.8 game, normal rules do not apply. Throw out whatever rational you normally apply when buying because the prices realized for what you get do not make sense.(to me)

 

I think Niko's point was if the person is happy, THAT is what matters. Wether they buy them for personal enjoyment or as an investment does not matter. They know they are greatly overpaying for them, and are still willing to do so for whatever the reason.

 

I personally would not buy a 9.8 unless it was one of the few books I consider a childhood grail that I am constantly looking to upgrade. And if they became available I would probably throw out my normal buying rules and just buy it , because it made me happy.

 

Ze-

 

Great final wrap up!

 

My point isn't "why do people buy 9.8s" but rather "people are buying something that may not really be a 9.8 beyond the label saying it is" thus, 9.8 isn't a great place to put money when you are buying "the best" that may not in reality, be a 9.8 comic and demonstrates the inconsistency when grading books in that realm.

[Silver Surfer]

Good points FD. Look at how quick raw Avengers books get scooped off the rack whenever they are offered for sale and just try and find those slabbed 9.8's from issues 155-188. I think Mile High Chuck says that the BA Avengers is probably his best selling title.

 

If you can you find them you better act fast before the listing shows "sale pending".

[ronm3-migration]

Not to begin this debate again, but this is an example of buying what is to me, a number that is just in someone's head. I mean -- yes, I suppose 9.8s exist -- but with the inconsistency in what is called a 9.8 and what is not, it makes the whole idea behind collecting 9.6s and 9.8s almost impossible when you start looking for that level of perfection. I've looked at many 9.8s and asked why they were 9.8s and many 9.6s and asked why they were not.

 

Given this level of inconsistency in the grading, putting money behind 9.8s just doesn't seem wise in the long run. Or again, this being an area with these FFs where somebody bought a label, and not the book.

 

Brian you are so right. I started collecting 9.4's and 9.6's at much lower prices because for every 9.6 I can find five 9.4's that look as good.

[Paul_Maul]

Not to begin this debate again, but this is an example of buying what is to me, a number that is just in someone's head. I mean -- yes, I suppose 9.8s exist -- but with the inconsistency in what is called a 9.8 and what is not, it makes the whole idea behind collecting 9.6s and 9.8s almost impossible when you start looking for that level of perfection. I've looked at many 9.8s and asked why they were 9.8s and many 9.6s and asked why they were not.

 

Given this level of inconsistency in the grading, putting money behind 9.8s just doesn't seem wise in the long run. Or again, this being an area with these FFs where somebody bought a label, and not the book.

 

Brian you are so right. I started collecting 9.4's and 9.6's at much lower prices because for every 9.6 I can find five 9.4's that look as good.

 

I may not be in the majority, but this is the factor that keeps me from dropping big multiples every time. I'm just about ready to pay 5x guide for that 9.6 I've been dreaming about, and then I picture myself opening the package only to find a 9.2 due to SCS, erratic grading, poor QP, etc. I can stomach the multiple, but only if I'm certain of the quality, and I rarely feel that certainty.

[MutantKeys]

Not to begin this debate again, but this is an example of buying what is to me, a number that is just in someone's head. I mean -- yes, I suppose 9.8s exist -- but with the inconsistency in what is called a 9.8 and what is not, it makes the whole idea behind collecting 9.6s and 9.8s almost impossible when you start looking for that level of perfection. I've looked at many 9.8s and asked why they were 9.8s and many 9.6s and asked why they were not.

 

Given this level of inconsistency in the grading, putting money behind 9.8s just doesn't seem wise in the long run. Or again, this being an area with these FFs where somebody bought a label, and not the book.

 

Brian you are so right. I started collecting 9.4's and 9.6's at much lower prices because for every 9.6 I can find five 9.4's that look as good.

[Point Five]

 

[SuperBird]

 

[Sid]

And here come the gremlins

[icefires]

And take them out of the slab and they sell for a fraction of that. That's what is truly

 

 

Gotta agree with Foolkiller. Buy the book, not the label.

 

Greggy is always there to make sure I don't pay too much for top graded books.

 

Thank you Greggy!

[fantastic_four]

Who are you?

 

A Night Elf Hunter who stumbled across the wrong forum...

[fantastic_four]

Having had (and sold for a very nice price on Pedigree) many of the top census Bronze Age Fantastic Fours, I can assure you that several of those books are VERY hard to find in uber-high grade. Even 9.6s in certain issues (155, 163, 169) are tough because of the black covers.

 

I agree entirely. I also bet that you've found more of these early Bronze issues at cons, at comic shops, or in collections you've bought than you have early Silver stuff. I always feel like there's a chance I'm going to find some 20-cent Fantastic Fours at cons when I go because a dealer picked up a new collection and doesn't know how relatively hard to find these issues are in high grade and that most of them trade hands outside the radar of CGC dealers and collectors. In my experience, the average dealer or comic shop owner just doesn't have non-key Bronze on their radar as a book that would sell for multiples of guide in high grade. This is true of almost all the dealers at the Washington-area cons we both have bought from. I know we both have picked up tons of insanely nice 20-cent Bronze books over the years from that con, but a fraction that many of the 12-cent Silvers--yet the Census shows less or equivalent numbers of early Bronze as early Silver. The Census just isn't mature for non-key Bronze.

 

The fact that people DO submit non-key early high-grade Bronze is evident in an issue such as FF #108, which I suspect was part of the Mile High 2 find since there are so many of them available in CGC 9.6. The issue which is probably the most mature in the Census and hints at the real populations of the other issues is #112. A lot of people submit this one, yet it's a relatively hard issue to find in high grade. I bet the non-key issues are available in similar numbers to the Census figures on 112, with the exception of a few tough issues like #124 with its mostly-black cover.

 

Some of the issues are comparatively easier to find due to what I assume are warehouse finds. For example, I've always found it easy to find #125--I have 4 or 5 unslabbed 9.4 to 9.8 copies myself and have seen many others for sale. Yet 124 and 126 both are very, very tough. Some of Doug's books got high but understandable prices, and others that are more available sold for CLEARLY more than the available supply will allow them to resell for. Three issues I like a lot in that run are the Silver Surfer/Galactus issues in 121, 122, and 123. These issues aren't that hard to find in 9.6 or better. I think Doug's 122 9.6 white sold for $400--that was too high for that issue. I still bet these were mostly bought by the same person who didn't haggle too much on a per-issue basis.