56K for first Superman and 83K for the reprint

[bluechip]

The point is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide.

 

Bob,

we have been back and forth on this issue before.....you and I. I disagree and think this is unfair to CGC.....they can't slow down their production line like business to write up a multi-faceted, extremely detailed, as much info as humanly possible summary so the consumer can have a 100% crystal clear picture of exactly what has been done to a book down to the atomic level. Furthermore, I don't see a public outcry due to market consideration that calls for a 1" piece replacement to be noted due to a sharp drop in appeal or value if there is a 2" piece replacement instead....our marketplace is not that anal ( yet ) where 1" is Ok and 2" isn't....I just don't see it. Can you imagine seeing an Action 1 come up for sale, and a potential serious buyer says to himself "what a shame...I was ready to bid $45k on that book, but it has a 2" tear seal......if it was only a 1.25" tear seal I would have gone for it"

 

Just like you, I want as much information as possible ... but I don't think CGC has a responsibilty to provide more than they are presently offering. Their purple labels are great, their slight, moderate and extensive designations are great, and their single line summary of work performed is fine for me.......I get the picture every time I read their labels. They are a 3rd party grading service....not a room full of scientists who have to turn in a report that gets read to Congress so tough decisions can be made about global warming.

 

YES --

 

people would be more inclined to buy a book if they knew what was done and they knew it was relatively little.

 

Attempting to belittle it by inventing quotes the sound silly about "a 1.215 tear seal" does not change that.

 

And it doesn't change the fact that such nitpicking is precisely what goes on with people who are obsessed about condition.

 

Purple labels are only great if a person wants to keep the information vague and wants to avoid differentiating between books.

 

They're also "great" if a person wants to drive down the value of restored books.

 

They're "great" if a person -- like an owner of CGC -- doesn't deal in restored books and wants people to focus on condition over content in ways that bolster the value of their own collection and make "more affordable" the items in other people's collections.

 

Finally, and once again, if you don't want the information, then why do you care that other people want it?

 

The bears repeating.-- if you don't want the information, then why do you care that other people want it?

 

Presently the details are absurdly vague. As illustrated by the latest action 1 listed with virtally the same notes as virtually every other restored copy -- pieces added, tears sealed, etc. And people on this board examining speculating whether it has a rebuilt spine.

 

What -- it's too much trouble for CGC tp write the words "rebuilt spine"?

 

We cannot expect them to do that for the money they charge?

 

That suggestion becomes even more absurd when you favtor in that everybody on this board knows tht CGC spends a great deal of time on each high grade copy of Cviil War Unlimited or GI Joe #21.

 

It is ridiculous to say that it's worthwhile to the customer for CGC to take the time to isolate the tiny, almost microscopic differences btween a 9.6 or a 9.9 copy of Wol verine Unlimited #189, but that we simnply and positively cannot expect CGC to differente between restored copies of Action 1 -- the most important comic of all -- to determine which one does or does not have a restored spine.

 

 

 

CGC could easily charge more for the service.

 

 

By the way, look at the posts on this board from fellow members whom you respect and you will see that several of them looked carefully at the book and considered buying it and that at least one of them backed away after concluding the spine was rebuilt -- not from the CGC notes but from his own inspection.

 

He makes it clear that the rebuilt spine puts it over the tiop. Would you belittle him for saying (in a paraphrase of your email) "gee I'd have gone for it if I could verify the spine wasn't rebuilt."?

 

What if CGC restored labels reoutinely did indicate whether a spine was rebuilt, and he'd been able to verify to his satisfaction it wasn't?

 

You've gone on record here as saying you'd like key restored books if they were cheap enough. Is this about your really not caring whether CGC priovides info but about your liking the fact they don't because you fdigure it will help you obtain one cheaper?

[showcase4]

Purple labels are only great if a person wants to keep the information vague and wants to avoid differentiating between books.

They're also "great" if a person wants to drive down the value of restored books.

 

Bob,

I really enjoy your posts, wisdom, and insight........but the conspiracy theory you believe exists to devalue restored books is a bit

[bluechip]

Since is apparently doesn't matter how much a book is restored once it passes the level of "extensive," I am contemplating have ny Superman pages only copy of Action 1 transformed into 7 separate copies of extensively restored Action 1a. Each will have one double-sided page of original action 1 material, and the rest will be restored. The label, I am guessing, will say "pieces added, tears sealed, color touch"

 

Taking pre-oprders now for all 7 copies. I will sell them for even less than the extensively restored ciopy just went from Heritage.

 

Say 45,000 apiece.

 

(that's nearly 12,000 less than the Heritage copy, which I undestand is completely equivalent)

[G.A.tor]

Since is apparently doesn't matter how much a book is restored once it passes the level of "extensive," I am contemplating have ny Superman pages only copy of Action 1 transformed into 7 separate copies of extensively restored Action 1a. Each will have one double-sided page of original action 1 material, and the rest will be restored. The label, I am guessing, will say "pieces added, tears sealed, color touch"

 

Taking pre-oprders now for all 7 copies. I will sell them for even less than the extensively restored ciopy just went from Heritage.

 

Say 45,000 apiece.

 

(that's nearly 12,000 less than the Heritage copy, which I undestand is completely equivalent)

[bluechip]

Purple labels are only great if a person wants to keep the information vague and wants to avoid differentiating between books.

They're also "great" if a person wants to drive down the value of restored books.

 

Bob,

I really enjoy your posts, wisdom, and insight........but the conspiracy theory you believe exists to devalue restored books is a bit

 

I appreciate the compliment. Want to point out I did not say there was a conspiracy, nor does anything in the quotes you pulled suggest I have called it a conspiracy. It's a plain fact that purple lbels can be great for a person wanting to buy restored books low, and that fact has been reiterated here many times by others.

 

It has also been stated many times by people on this board, including yourself, that some people, including you.,like it when misinformation or lack of informatun keeps prices down because that makes things cheaper.

[Aman619]

I do not care for restored books, as I have stated many times here. However, I agree with those who advocate more descriptions from CGC of the work that was performed on them way beyond the classic simple 'pieces added, tear seal, color touch.' I also agree that it shouldnt take more than $10 - $20 worth of time (billable or better - - "free of charge") to notate up to three sentences of detailed descriptive copy for posterity for each Purple labeled book. And if CGC ever adopted a full 10-point reevaluation of their restored grading process, all the better. But for now Id settle for a 3 sentence description so that a potential buyer can have more choices in weighing how much work is TOO much work for them. The analogy to the early G, F, M grading scale is spot on to my ears.

 

How can more info ever be a bad thing here? The descriptions now are just too vague to be of any use. I dont see a conspiracy, but perhaps a patiality against restored books. Remember - - CGCs mission was to root out the restored from the unrestored books in our midsts so that collectors without such skills would no longer be at an advantage. I see this as the mindset stemming from those who did not collect restored books, seeking rather to select OUT the wheat from the chaff (sp?). I am one of these too!

 

But Its clear they were never interested in providing detailed notes to those collectors who dont mind a restored book in their collection. Or prefer them. Why shouldnt these collectors expect or seek for CGC to serve THEIR collecting interests as well as the rest of us?

 

So summing up, I never minded all restored books being lumped in a purple pile with just a quick phrase on them all. But I now understand it from the other side.... and it makes just as much sense to specify the level of restoration as the condition grade ... so sue me!

[bluechip]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

 

I, in fact, do.

 

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration grading we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

 

Ciorac displays a fine command of reasoning here.

 

As a one time collegiate champ of the arcane art of symbolic logic I can attest that his argument would map out formulaically as a thing of sinple beauty.,

[bluechip]

Since is apparently doesn't matter how much a book is restored once it passes the level of "extensive," I am contemplating have ny Superman pages only copy of Action 1 transformed into 7 separate copies of extensively restored Action 1a. Each will have one double-sided page of original action 1 material, and the rest will be restored. The label, I am guessing, will say "pieces added, tears sealed, color touch"

 

Taking pre-oprders now for all 7 copies. I will sell them for even less than the extensively restored ciopy just went from Heritage.

 

Say 45,000 apiece.

 

(that's nearly 12,000 less than the Heritage copy, which I undestand is completely equivalent)

 

Eric,

 

for you I'll knock off another 20 percent. (but don't spread it around)

[Aman619]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

 

I, in fact, do.

 

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration grading we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

 

Ciorac displays a fine command of reasoning here.

 

As the one time champ of symbolic logic at the diploma mill I called my university, I can attest that his argument would map out formulaically as a thing of sinple beauty.,

 

this soecific post persuaded me too. Imagine the market in that top 10% of purple books that have demonstrably less work than others. This NEW class of copies would easily show increased demand after the High and Mid grade unrestoreds and compete against the low grades.

 

It just seems obvious that at some point the hobby will take a second look at the huge Purple Pile to see just whats in there! And pick out some gems worth another look. In the same way that th ehobby has ALWAYS awakend to the gems and value in a previously discarded segment ,... books after 1970 anyone? It wasnt that long ago that major dealers voiced loud disdain for all 15 and 20 cent comics as "plentiful, cheap and junk with no fanbase whatsoever. HAH! Look at em now! ... and weep if you never got on board the Bronze train..

[Aman619]

I liked sinple better!

[ciorac]

The poiint is that the customer looking at a slabbed restored book in this case is not being served by the amount of information provide. And the customer who paid to have the book slabbed in the first place may have actually spent money to have the book devalued with bad information that ioncorrectly puts it on the same level as a book that's had major portions of art recreated.

If you think that CGC is artificially depressing the market by not providing enough information about restored books and describing restored books with overly broad categories, then I will say what I've said in the past to Lou Fine and others here who made the same complaint: vote with your feet (or your wallet), exploit this discrepancy in information and start scooping up all these undervalued gems. If every person who I've heard complain about PLODs being underpriced by the market would actually put their money where their mouth is and start bidding these books up to the value they claim they should be, the negative perception of PLODs would vanish literally overnight.

 

I, in fact, do.

 

But that aside, I would like to hear your analysis as to how a more specific scale would not in fact also contribute to price escalation. Don't you agree that we have come a long way from GD, FN and MT?? Hasn't the grading scale and encapsulation helped drive prices upward? So using that logic and empirical evidence it is safe to assume that if the same, or similar standards, were applied to restoration grading we would also experience, and enjoy, an upward swing in many of the classes of reestoration, save "frankenbooks" I'd wager.

 

Ciorac displays a fine command of reasoning here.

 

As a one time collegiate champ of the arcane art of symbolic logic I can attest that his argument would map out formulaically as a thing of sinple beauty.,

 

Why thank you Bob, I appreciate the kind words. Debate was my absolute favorite elective in school. I stayed on the team throughout school and into college.

 

It is more fun debating something you are passionate about, and I am very passionate about comics, I'm pretty sure that shows in my posts!

[bluechip]

I do not care for restored books, as I have stated many times here. However, I agree with those who advocate more descriptions from CGC of the work that was performed on them way beyond the classic simple 'pieces added, tear seal, color touch.' I also agree that it shouldnt take more than $10 - $20 worth of time (billable or better - - "free of charge") to notate up to three sentences of detailed descriptive copy for posterity for each Purple labeled book. And if CGC ever adopted a full 10-point reevaluation of their restored grading process, all the better. But for now Id settle for a 3 sentence description so that a potential buyer can have more choices in weighing how much work is TOO much work for them. The analogy to the early G, F, M grading scale is spot on to my ears.

 

How can more info ever be a bad thing here? The descriptions now are just too vague to be of any use. I dont see a conspiracy, but perhaps a patiality against restored books. Remember - - CGCs mission was to root out the restored from the unrestored books in our midsts so that collectors without such skills would no longer be at an advantage. I see this as the mindset stemming from those who did not collect restored books, seeking rather to select OUT the wheat from the chaff (sp?). I am one of these too!

 

But Its clear they were never interested in providing detailed notes to those collectors who dont mind a restored book in their collection. Or prefer them. Why shouldnt these collectors expect or seek for CGC to serve THEIR collecting interests as well as the rest of us?

 

So summing up, I never minded all restored books being lumped in a purple pile with just a quick phrase on them all. But I now understand it from the other side.... and it makes just as much sense to specify the level of restoration as the condition grade ... so sue me!

 

I am happily awash in unassaiable logic today!

 

[tth2]

And if you want to see some non-frakenbook nicely restored golden age key hoarding, stop by some time when you are stateside!

[Apotheosis]

Are you saying they formed the board itself? Or that they provide funds for it? Even if so I wojldn't feel obligated to say only good things about them and ignore anything trouibling.

 

I know I don't read the boards as closely as I should, but I can't think of a time when you said any good thing about CGC. It's always negative. That's not exactly fair either.

 

Oh... I'd pick the Action 1 on this one. I've never really liked the Supes 1 and resto doesn't bother me that much on something that rare.