9.8's ( What goes up, must come down )

[Shadow]

To enjoy this site, I came to the realization long ago to enjoy what I collect and not worry about the others. I enjoy seeing what others collect but I would drive myself mad if I was over-ridingly concerned with the "grade". When I first started posting here, I thought I had a great copy of a book (let's say a 9.0) only to see scans of higher grades of the same book. I felt like it was some sort of competition, even though it was never presented that way or meant by most here. After taking a break, I came back and realized that this is a hobby for me and to enjoy seeing what others had and to, overall, have a forum to share our passion of comics with. While owning a HG comic means something too me, it is not the reason I collect. (Heck, I don't intend to sell my collection. ) It's the nostalgia, the "chase", the "discovery", etc. that does it for me. I'm not someone who spends thousands of dollars at a show. I wish I could, but taking $400, for example, to a show makes me happy. It probably means that a Fine or better copy of Brave & The Bold #28 will always be out of reach for me. But a nice Good+ copy will probably do for me.

 

I don't understand the lure of the 9.8 Moderns, or the stuff Wizard shills. But, then again, I don't understand the desire for BA DC Romance comics. It's a classic "to each, their own". If someone loves the challenge of collecting 9.8's, have at it and enjoy.

 

But, it is interesting to discuss what may come of trends, etc. I think, over time, the market works itself out. Sadly, at times, it means someone get's caught holding the proverbial bag. Perhaps it's a bag of HG Modern Comics that people realize aren't as rare as thought?

[batman_fan]

I have been around for some time. Started collecting in 1972. Numerous times in the past a collective group of us has said "can't go any higher". This has been true for several "hot" books but in general, most things have continued to go up. I don't understand it, but that is the trend. Myself, I hate it as I have slowed my buying in the last few years because of prices. I have recently started to sell 1970/1980/1990 stuff to help fund some bigger purchases. Some of this stuff I paid literally $0.35 that I now sell for $75 (minus the grading fee).

[the blob]

But the difference is, you never see the high grade collectors coming here to laugh at you about the way you collect.

 

------------------------------------

 

I don't know about 'laugh", but plenty of high grade collectors make statements like ___ era comics are worthless (or can't retain value) in less than 9.2/9.4/9.6 or whatever.

[tth2]

One aspect of this discussion has been considered at length: the variance in the CGC numerical grading. Another aspect that receives far less attention is the overall quality, irrespective of the numerical grade. Cover color preservation, cover whiteness preservation, cleanliness, cover wrap, staple placement, gloss, and page quality are just some of the additional characteristics that contribute to the "eye appeal" of comics but don't factor much if at all in the CGC numerical grade.

 

The craziness I see in the marketplace is not simply the earth-shattering prices being paid for ultra-high grade copies but these same prices being realized for a subset of these copies, the ones with excellent structural preservation (i.e., high numerical grades), but badly flawed eye appeal. That's the part that, for me, is truly nutso.

 

A very good point!! Eye appeal is truly the one indicator I go on when looking at a book. Everyone will have different opinions on what has the best eye appeal to him/her and that's the way it should be. What is disturbing to me is someone paying $6,400.00 for Ghost Rider #1 in 9.8 when a 9.2 is priced at $120.00 and often sells for much less.

 

Why the *spoon* do you care? Why is that disturbing to you? It isn't YOUR money. Seriously, what do you care what somebody else pays for a book? Is it ANY of your business? NO, and what that person does with his/her money is his/her business.

 

Every six months this same *spoon* comes up againandagainandagainandagain.

 

Buy what you like. Don't worry about what anybody else buys. The marketplace will be just fine. Capitalism works.

[tth2]

The craziness I see in the marketplace is not simply the earth-shattering prices being paid for ultra-high grade copies but these same prices being realized for a subset of these copies, the ones with excellent structural preservation (i.e., high numerical grades), but badly flawed eye appeal. That's the part that, for me, is truly nutso.

 

Very simple explanation for this phenonemon.

 

These are the newbies or the day traders who don't really know anything about comics at all except for the CGC number. They are the ones who spend big money buying the labels without even taking a look at the book itself.

 

But then again, who am I to say what people should be spending their money on. To each their own, I guess as it's a free marketplace.

 

There are collectors to whom the "structural grade", for lack of a better term, is vastly more important than the other factors that you cite. This phenomenon pre-dates CGC, although the general acceptance of their grading standards by the marketplace may have expanded the pool of collectors to whom these other qualities matter little in their overall purchasing decision.

Count me in the "structural grade" group. I've always viewed obsession with perfect centering as a baseball card thing, where they have the luxury of dwelling over such manufacturing defects because it's generally much easier to find cards that are free of handling defects than comics.

 

Do I prefer my comics to be perfectly centered? Of course. But I'm much more lenient about manufacturer's defects as opposed to handling defects. Given the choice of picking up a GL #7 in 9.6 with a slightly slanted band of white showing on the spine or buying the next best slabbed copy (which is a 8.5 and I have no idea if it's perfectly centered or not, but let's assume it is), I'll take the perfect spine and sharp corners of the 9.6 copy over the slightly worn 8.5 EVERY time.

[lou_fine]

To the rest of the world spending 6K on a 9.8 GR#1 looks no crazier than spending the same on some beater GA "key" featuring a hero that no one recalls (Amazing Man #5), or a 9.6 copy of some non-key Ditko ASM.

 

To me there is a significant difference between the two and serves to illustrate the polarity in this marketplace.

 

From my point of view, a collector who is paying multiples of guide for what would amount to a low grade in-demand GA book is paying for the actual comic book itself. This price is being paid due to the underlying price strength in the comic book itself.

 

A purchaser who is willing to spend $6K on an uber HG Modern or BA key book is most likely paying for the label only. Especially if the book itself can only be sold at a discount to guide in low grade, mid grade, or possibly even high grade conditions. There is no relative underlying price strength, as the price really derives from what the label says. These are the types of books that are prone to have big drops in price once another higher graded copy or equally graded copy shows up in the marketplace.

 

The polarity is that one is a collector of comic books while the other is really more a collector of CGC labels.

 

You are most likely a GA collector, am I wrong? In all honesty, I think a lot of high grade GA collectors buy the label, not the other ages. Fact is high grade labels for GA demand more of a premium and numerous examples posted showing gradual climbs in grades by books, a lot of them were GA books. The price jump is more immediate on them due to collectors chasing more.

 

Sid;

 

Actually, I am a collector of all ages as I have been buying books on and off the newsstand since the early 70's along with back issues from earlier time periods. I must admit, however, that the majority of my spending since the late 80's has been geared more towards GA books.

 

I don't think there are pure HG collectors in the GA market similar to what you have in the BA and Modern Age markets. All of the biggest collectors that I know of in the GA market also picks up both low grade and mid grade copies of books for their collections. I don't believe this is happening anywhere near the same extent with HG BA and Modern age collectors.

 

Definitely agree with you that HG GA books do sell for a big premium. From a percentage point of view, however, a lot of the in-demand VG and F condition copies also sell for the same type of multiples even in raw condition. I don't see this same phenomenon happening with the non-HG BA and Modern age books.

 

From a label point of view, I don't really see GA collectors paying multiples more for a 9.8 as compared to a 9.4 condition book. In fact, a particular issue is often times even lucky to have one in 9.4 condition. As a result, the multiple paid for a 9.6 is actually pretty close to what a 9.4 would have gone for anyways. GA collectors are often just happy to find the book, let alone in high grade

 

The argument that SA and BA books are more common in high grades therefore shouldn't get a premium is played out IMO. A 9.8 bronze with it's crazy premiums is still a lot cheaper then similarly graded GA, and most collectors can't afford 9.4+ GAs, while silver/bronze would still be a possiblity. The market is bigger, wider and definately less tolerant of lower graded books due to those facts. So, why is it a big deal if SA/bronze/Copper collectors pay premiums?

 

Never said that a HG SA/BA/CA or Modern Age book should not be getting a premium. All HG books from any era should be getting some type of premium. Just stating my opinion that the HG GA and early SA books multiples are probably more secured since a lot of these rarer books will also sell for a premium across all condition grades. Simply can't say the same thing about the more recent books.

 

With a lot of the GA books, a collector is just happy to find a copy in reasonable condition whereas with the more recent books, the focus is much more on the CGC label because the books are just so abundant in all grades except for the census topping copies.

 

 

Simply put, people collect comic books for a lot of different reasons and each collector should be well left alone by everyone no matter what their choices are. These type of threads with general bashing is sad and plain stupid. Everyone has rights to do whatever they please with their money, if they start to spend yours then by all means put up this BS but until then leave everyone alone to their own habits.

 

For this your get one of these:

[tth2]

Why the *spoon* do you care? Why is that disturbing to you? It isn't YOUR money. Seriously, what do you care what somebody else pays for a book? Is it ANY of your business? NO, and what that person does with his/her money is his/her business.

 

Every six months this same *spoon* comes up againandagainandagainandagain.

 

Buy what you like. Don't worry about what anybody else buys. The marketplace will be just fine. Capitalism works.

 

You make a fair point Flying Donut, it isn't my money. But it's disturbing because it sets a precedant that it's somehow ok to spend thousands more because a book is subjectively given 0.6 points higher. That seems ok to you... the books aren't one of a kind You're right... capitalism does work but you take away the buyers with their "wants" and capitalism doesn't work very well in a market that doesn't supply "staple goods" In 1998, you would've looked at a 9.8 and 9.2 book and called it NM with no destinction of 0.2 points either way.

Actually, back in 1998, I recall books being graded as VF/NM, NM-, NM, NM+ and NM/M, by many dealers. Take a look at an ad for the Pacific Coast collection and you'll see Roter making even finer distinctions.

 

Dad, I don't want to get on your case, but I'm just curious whether you gave this same book vs. label lecture to Doug Schmell when you were drooling over his books. I mean, this is a guy who wasn't satisfied with a mere 9.6 on his X-Men #1 and resubbed it to get a 9.8, right? And resubbed his FF #1, which was already at the top of the heap as a 9.6, in order to get a higher page quality designation? BTW, this is not meant as a criticism of Doug, who is free to do what he wants with his books. I'm just curious if there's a double standard for your book vs. label philosophy (i.e., okay for top-of-census SA keys but not okay for common BA/Moderns).

[Sid]

Reduced!

 

Well I agree with most everything you say, except I don't see a 9.6/9.8 GA fetching anywhere in the vicinity of 9.2/9.4 But then again I am making an assumption on that based solely on what I think and what you said. The high grades are extremely rare and thus I believe it will and rightfully get extreme premiums.

 

My argument is simply, for me to buy a 9.8 BA I would maybe have to sleep on it or give it thought, as opposed to GA I wouldn't even bother. This might be the reason the pool is so much bigger for the later books and more people willing to go the distance on the books jacking up the premium. Demand in comparasion to GA I imagine is higher, and guide prices etc. might disagree with the premiums but obviously it fetches them easily. I disagree that anyone should be getting irritated over issues like this though as buisness is buisness and hobbys are meant to be fun.

 

I am thinking, we are basically saying the same thing just differently.

[tth2]

From a label point of view, I don't really see GA collectors paying multiples more for a 9.8 as compared to a 9.4 condition book. In fact, a particular issue is often times even lucky to have one in 9.4 condition. As a result, the multiple paid for a 9.6 is actually pretty close to what a 9.4 would have gone for anyways. GA collectors are often just happy to find the book, let alone in high grade

Lou, while I believe that you believe what you're saying, I think you're being extremely naive. If what you said were true, then Master Chef's "Manufactured Gold" thread wouldn't be filled with copy after copy of "improved" GA books, and we wouldn't know of so many "improved" Church books. If GA collectors really weren't paying more for incrementally higher grades, then the crack-and-resub game would've died out a long time ago.

[Dad&Son-migration]

Dad, I don't want to get on your case, but I'm just curious whether you gave this same book vs. label lecture to Doug Schmell when you were drooling over his books. I mean, this is a guy who wasn't satisfied with a mere 9.6 on his X-Men #1 and resubbed it to get a 9.8, right? And resubbed his FF #1, which was already at the top of the heap as a 9.6, in order to get a higher page quality designation? BTW, this is not meant as a criticism of Doug, who is free to do what he wants with his books. I'm just curious if there's a double standard for your book vs. label philosophy (i.e., okay for top-of-census SA keys but not okay for common BA/Moderns).

 

Actually Tim, I did have discussions with Doug around this topic. It was very light but we agreed on many things. I guess that's why I'm not dumping on the collectors of high grade books either...Doug is the ultimate fanboy of nice books..you can see it in the way he gets excited about discussing books ... truly an awesome guy to talk books with. I'm just floored at the prices paid for a 9.8 over a 9.2 book. Simple as that!!!

[Sid]

From a label point of view, I don't really see GA collectors paying multiples more for a 9.8 as compared to a 9.4 condition book. In fact, a particular issue is often times even lucky to have one in 9.4 condition. As a result, the multiple paid for a 9.6 is actually pretty close to what a 9.4 would have gone for anyways. GA collectors are often just happy to find the book, let alone in high grade

Lou, while I believe that you believe what you're saying, I think you're being extremely naive. If what you said were true, then Master Chef's "Manufactured Gold" thread wouldn't be filled with copy after copy of "improved" GA books, and we wouldn't know of so many "improved" Church books. If GA collectors really weren't paying more for incrementally higher grades, then the crack-and-resub game would've died out a long time ago.

 

Exactly my point but I had no specifics. You da man.

[Scheradon]

Dad, I don't want to get on your case, but I'm just curious whether you gave this same book vs. label lecture to Doug Schmell when you were drooling over his books. I mean, this is a guy who wasn't satisfied with a mere 9.6 on his X-Men #1 and resubbed it to get a 9.8, right? And resubbed his FF #1, which was already at the top of the heap as a 9.6, in order to get a higher page quality designation? BTW, this is not meant as a criticism of Doug, who is free to do what he wants with his books. I'm just curious if there's a double standard for your book vs. label philosophy (i.e., okay for top-of-census SA keys but not okay for common BA/Moderns).

 

Actually Tim, I did have discussions with Doug around this topic. It was very light but we agreed on many things. I guess that's why I'm not dumping on the collectors of high grade books either...Doug is the ultimate fanboy of nice books..you can see it in the way he gets excited about discussing books ... truly an awesome guy to talk books with. I'm just floored at the prices paid for a 9.8 over a 9.2 book. Simple as that!!!

 

Be prepared to be floored!

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/BRONZE-AGE-IRON-FIST...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

I see both sides to a degree. I myself collect 9.8 books and am surely guilty of paying what others would consider ridiculous prices for some of them, but at the same time, I see sales like the one above and and have to scratch my head.

 

The key thing is, that whatever any of us buy and spend on what we buy, that we are happy with it I guess.

[Darthdiesel]

I'd pay that for the variant

[CycleGirl]

<<snip>>

 

Actually Tim, I did have discussions with Doug around this topic. It was very light but we agreed on many things. I guess that's why I'm not dumping on the collectors of high grade books either...Doug is the ultimate fanboy of nice books..you can see it in the way he gets excited about discussing books ... truly an awesome guy to talk books with. I'm just floored at the prices paid for a 9.8 over a 9.2 book. Simple as that!!!

 

Or for that matter, the difference between the price of a 9.8 and a 9.6!

 

On one hand, I can see your point, Dad. I'm sure that I'm not good enough to tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 . So why should one have more value than the other? I believe, however, that there is a justification for higher grades commanding much higher prices.

 

Before I spend significant $$ on a book I always look at the census, this puts the prices in a more meaningful context.

 

Let's look, for example, at an X-Men #139, a fairly popular book from the BA. There are 12 copies in 9.8 and 145 copies in 9.6 . Are the 9.8 copies better than the 9.6 copies? Probably they are. Would I pay more for a 9.8 than a 9.6? Of course I would, they're better! Given a chance, I'm pretty sure that I would trade 3 copies in 9.6 for one copy in 9.8 of that book. Why? Well, why wouldn't I want to have the best? I mean, Kitty Pride joined the X-Men in that issue - Woo hoo!

 

Obviously, for any collectible to have value, it must (1) be in demand and (2) have some degree of scarcity. For many BA issues, a 9.8 is an order of magnitude more scarce than a 9.6 or 9.4. Should it fetch 5 or 10 times the price?

 

To answer that, I'll need to quote Adam Smith

 

The word value . . . has two different meanings, and sometimes expresses the utility of some particular object, and sometimes the power of purchasing other goods which the possession of that object conveys. The one may be called “value in use”; the other, “value in exchange.” The things which have the greatest value in use have frequently little or no value in exchange; and on the contrary, those which have the greatest value in

exchange have frequently little or no value in use. Nothing is more useful than water: scarce anything can be had in exchange for it. A diamond, on the contrary, has scarce any value in use, but a very great quantity of other goods may frequently be had in exchange for it.

 

Let's face it, a run-of-the-mill copy of a BA book is like water. They are a dime-a-dozen. They are certainly as fun to read, and for some, just as fun to own as a NM copy. However, that beauty in 9.8 is a diamond.

 

One collector on the X-Men thread put it this way "I like the challenge of the higher grades." That's a cool way to look at it if you ask me. It seems that most of as collectors set challenges for ourselves. The challenge is only worthwhile if there is a degree of difficulty. If my challenge is, "I'm going to own every issue of the BA X-Men in VF or better." Well, that is a challenge. If I decide that I'm going to challenge myself to have them all in 9.6 or better, it would be lot more difficult! Going for higher grade is a way to make the quest more difficult.

 

CG

[rjpb]

To the rest of the world spending 6K on a 9.8 GR#1 looks no crazier than spending the same on some beater GA "key" featuring a hero that no one recalls (Amazing Man #5), or a 9.6 copy of some non-key Ditko ASM.

 

To me there is a significant difference between the two and serves to illustrate the polarity in this marketplace.

 

From my point of view, a collector who is paying multiples of guide for what would amount to a low grade in-demand GA book is paying for the actual comic book itself. This price is being paid due to the underlying price strength in the comic book itself.

 

A purchaser who is willing to spend $6K on an uber HG Modern or BA key book is most likely paying for the label only. Especially if the book itself can only be sold at a discount to guide in low grade, mid grade, or possibly even high grade conditions. There is no relative underlying price strength, as the price really derives from what the label says. These are the types of books that are prone to have big drops in price once another higher graded copy or equally graded copy shows up in the marketplace.

 

The polarity is that one is a collector of comic books while the other is really more a collector of CGC labels.

 

You'll get no argument from me there - probably why I collect Golden Age as well, but every time I spend a few hundred dollars on a what was meant to be a cheap disposable commodity a little voice in the back of my head is asking "What are you, nuts?" The few times I've crossed into the low 4 figures that voice gets a bit more agitated, I'd hate to have to listen to it if I started spending serious money on funny books.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Let's look, for example, at an X-Men #139, a fairly popular book from the BA. There are 12 copies in 9.8 and 145 copies in 9.6 . Are the 9.8 copies better than the 9.6 copies? Probably they are. Would I pay more for a 9.8 than a 9.6? Of course I would, they're better! Given a chance, I'm pretty sure that I would trade 3 copies in 9.6 for one copy in 9.8 of that book. Why? Well, why wouldn't I want to have the best? I mean, Kitty Pride joined the X-Men in that issue - Woo hoo

 

Why trade 3 9.6s for a single 9.8 that could very well come back a 9.6 upon resub? The better move would be to resub the 3 9.6 copies.....

[nik]

My question is a fairly simple one, and two-fold;

 

Has anyone here resubbed a 9.6 in hope of achieving a 9.8?

 

 

Why?

[CycleGirl]

Let's look, for example, at an X-Men #139, a fairly popular book from the BA. There are 12 copies in 9.8 and 145 copies in 9.6 . Are the 9.8 copies better than the 9.6 copies? Probably they are. Would I pay more for a 9.8 than a 9.6? Of course I would, they're better! Given a chance, I'm pretty sure that I would trade 3 copies in 9.6 for one copy in 9.8 of that book. Why? Well, why wouldn't I want to have the best? I mean, Kitty Pride joined the X-Men in that issue - Woo hoo

 

Why trade 3 9.6s for a single 9.8 that could very well come back a 9.6 upon resub? The better move would be to resub the 3 9.6 copies.....

 

With my luck I would end up with two 9.4's and one 9.6 .

 

Seriously, does this work?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Let's look, for example, at an X-Men #139, a fairly popular book from the BA. There are 12 copies in 9.8 and 145 copies in 9.6 . Are the 9.8 copies better than the 9.6 copies? Probably they are. Would I pay more for a 9.8 than a 9.6? Of course I would, they're better! Given a chance, I'm pretty sure that I would trade 3 copies in 9.6 for one copy in 9.8 of that book. Why? Well, why wouldn't I want to have the best? I mean, Kitty Pride joined the X-Men in that issue - Woo hoo

 

Why trade 3 9.6s for a single 9.8 that could very well come back a 9.6 upon resub? The better move would be to resub the 3 9.6 copies.....

 

With my luck I would end up with two 9.4's and one 9.6 .

 

Seriously, does this work?

 

Let's approach it from the other way....

 

Are you confident that if you cracked out all your 9.8 slabs & resubbed them...that you would get all 9.8s back?

[lou_fine]

From a label point of view, I don't really see GA collectors paying multiples more for a 9.8 as compared to a 9.4 condition book. In fact, a particular issue is often times even lucky to have one in 9.4 condition. As a result, the multiple paid for a 9.6 is actually pretty close to what a 9.4 would have gone for anyways. GA collectors are often just happy to find the book, let alone in high grade

Lou, while I believe that you believe what you're saying, I think you're being extremely naive. If what you said were true, then Master Chef's "Manufactured Gold" thread wouldn't be filled with copy after copy of "improved" GA books, and we wouldn't know of so many "improved" Church books. If GA collectors really weren't paying more for incrementally higher grades, then the crack-and-resub game would've died out a long time ago.

 

I guess that I simply don't buy the argument that GA collectors will step up and pay multiples more for a GA book that's in 9.6 condtion as opposed to one that is in only 9.4 condition. I believe that the premiums in GA is more simply determined based on what the book grades at relative to what other copies are grading at.

 

For example, the Allentown copy of 'Tec 38 sold for something like $126K back in 2005 or something like a sade over 2X guide. If this book had been graded at a 9.6, I still don't buy the argument that all of a sudden, GA collectors will be clamoring to pay $250K or 4X guide for this book just for this 0.2 incrmental bump.

 

Another example would be the 9.8 Allentown copy of Special Edition Comics #1. With this uber high grade, I guess the argument would go that GA collectors would be paying multiples through the roof for this book. Not so as the book sold for only $37K or less than 3X guide for the book. You can't convince me that this book would have gone for only $19K or less if it had came in at a 9.6 or only for $9K or less if it had come in at a 9.4.

 

We've had a lot of discussion about the Church copy of Action Comics #1 on the GA boards. Generally, most board member seems to feel the book would go for a certain price whether it came in at a 9.2. or as a 9.4. Just another example whereby the book itself determines the price, moreso than the actual grade.

 

With respect to the Manufactured Gold and similar threads, the majority of these improvements and where a lot of the gains are coming are not from the uber HG end of the specrtrum. I see a lot of these improvements and price gains coming from books in 6.5 condition going up to 9.0; 7.5's going up to 9.0; 8.5's going up to 9.2.