How is a pedigree book validated?

[sfilosa]

In reality, I would rather have more named pedigrees then less. That is because, I DON'T have to pay a PREMIUM for these books if I don't want to. Just because it is a PEDIGREE (which now seems to be defined by CGC), doesn' t mean it will automatically command higher prices then non-pedigree books.

 

I've stated this several times, but what makes owning Pedigree books worthwhile to me is seeing UNIFORMED runs of books from the same title. Just owning one Mile High doesn't create the effect as own five issues in a row.

 

Therefore, if Joe Blow really did buy a bunch of books, right off the newstand and they are all High Grade, even if there are no keys, I would be interested to know all the books came from him. Maybe I buy one book and really like the gloss. So now I might want to get more books from this collection. Having it labeled as a pedigree, helps me find these books.

 

I DETERMINE, what if any PREMIUM, I'm willing to pay for any book, pedigreed or not.

 

[Moriarty]

Well...if you believe the seller, Steve Geppi doesn't think that it's a joke and have offered a substantial offer in the 6 figures. Personally, I think that no one other than Geppi would offer that much because the titles aren't the mainstream titles!

 

Interestingly, I also heard Geppi offered in the region of $100k for the whole collection but was turned down by the seller. Heritage on the other hand, tried a more realistic figure of approx. $35k. Most of the books in the collection, according to a very reliable scource, originated from the Comstock Collection (Sp?), so not sure if this had anything to do with the new pedigree designation .

[greggy]

Well...if you believe the seller, Steve Geppi doesn't think that it's a joke and have offered a substantial offer in the 6 figures. Personally, I think that no one other than Geppi would offer that much because the titles aren't the mainstream titles!

 

Interestingly, I also heard Geppi offered in the region of $100k for the whole collection but was turned down by the seller. Heritage on the other hand, tried a more realistic figure of approx. $35k. Most of the books in the collection, according to a very reliable scource, originated from the Comstock Collection (Sp?), so not sure if this had anything to do with the new pedigree designation .

 

Well..the figure quoted to me was substantially higher which if true, the seller is a total insufficiently_thoughtful_person to not have accepted it. The collection while high grade, doesn't have books that the major dealers would rush towards to buy and sell to their clients. I can understand why Geppi would like these books but anyone else? Unlikely as a lot!

[NoImSpartacus]

I gave all of you 5 stars each. Im a little new to this Star rating thing. Can you all throw some stars my way. Is my first time rating people. Anyway, this post on Pedigrees may help alot of people. There seems to be good general rules that collectors go by to determine Pedigree. If Overstreet or CGC set specific rules for exactly what constitutes a pedigree collection, it would be great and it would take the remaining guessing out of the Pedigree problem. The reason I asked the question is because I had purchased a collection of about 200 Bronze Age books from a person. All high grade, but who really knows if they are pedigree or not. He got them from his father. Did his father get them from a store or newstand. The son and me do not have a clue. But the books all look really good and sorta look the same in quality. Another question I guess would be. How many books constitute a pedigree. Suppose instead of 4000 books a person found only 40 books that met the general pedigree description. Would that be a pedigree? I guess its hard to say at what point in numbers the collection would become recognized?

[aardvark88]

Borg,

Very interesting to hear the RUMOR that some of the 245 in the Vancouver pedigree may have come from the Comstock. Did not know that the Comstock included Timely #1's that were 9.2 or better with pure wht pages.

Greggy & I know the finder of the Vancouver pedigree & he would NOT have paid a decent % of guide to get the books from Comstock as he usually handles estates/comicshop bankruptcies/overstock at 10 cents on the $ or less.

[shadroch]

A pedigree is declared by the dealer who is selling the original collection. There are no hard fast rules nor a governing body that grants pedigrees. If the quality of the books is superior, the pedigree catches onand a premium may become attached.

 

I have to disagree with that. The concept of a pedigree does require that the books be from a single collection obtained first-run by the original collector. That is what MAKES it a pedigree.

 

Anyon can g out and buy a slew of high gradde copies from various sources. The proper term for that is Collection.

 

 

No disagreement whatsoever. You are simply clarifing what I had said elsewhere inmy post.

[fantastic_four]

However, CGC did give pedigree status to the new Vancouver collection. The grades are far superior but has no major keys.

 

Link to the new Vancouver pedigree!

 

A number of the more recent pedigrees have been "declared" as such by CGC at the request of dealers, including Western Penn, Curator, and the others mentioned here. I'm in the process of doing research for a series of articles documenting the stories behind a lot of the newer or previously undocumented pedigrees, and I've already interviewed Chris, the discoverer of this new Vancouver collection. I should have an article done for it by this weekend to be published in an upcoming issue of the Comics Buyer's Guide. Most of the other pedigrees are taking longer to research and I won't be done with them for months.

 

I've begun research on around 6 or 7 pedigrees by interviewing several original purchasers as well as Mark Haspel from CGC, and from what I've been able to gather, the original purchaser of the collections are the most often-used source to validate that a comic is from a particular pedigree. However, when the original purchaser isn't available, there are a large number of physical characteristics of the books which can identify them, including date stamps, writing, or exceptional condition attributes such as page whiteness, page suppleness, cover gloss, structure, etc. If a pedigree has no unique physical characteristics, and none of the original purchasers or owners are available to validate the chain of custody on a given copy, then I've heard several stories where CGC has refused to identify a comic as a pedigree.

 

For example, the Curator collection is probably impossible to validate the chain of custody for because of the way the original owner sold it off...I'm finding that one to be a really interesting story and I can't wait to finish the research so I can share the details. The newer a pedigree is, the more likely it is that you've got to rely on the people involved with the initial sale of the collection to validate which copies came from it; Silver and Bronze books are more often in great shape and just don't have writing on them as commonly as Golden Age books do.

[Zonker]

A Pedigree is a Marketing gimmick, no more no less.

Look at Metro's attempt with the Devil's Lake (Butter) Pedigree.

If the Marketing gimmick is successful, then it becomes recognized as a pedigree. If it is not, then we never hear about it again. The comments above are a good guide to what collectors are looking for and recognize in pedigrees, therefore a good guide to what will likely be a successful Marketing ploy.

 

But I also agree CGC will become the seal of approval for recognizing Pedigrees. Might be an incentive to slab some of those mega-books locked up in collections: even if ya had no intention to sell, ya might want to authenticate the pedigree (as for example before the distinctive smell wears off! )

 

Cheers,

Z.

[deathlok]

Is there a distiction between these two models:

 

1. Collector A interested in comic books in 1995, decides he would like to collect more comic books. He starts with zero books. Over the course of the next few years he buys others books, he buys back issues from shops, and orders online. By now, he has amasses a large selection of various publishers, about 5000 books. Many of the books are silver, bronze, and some modern age issues. All are Fine to NM, all raw of course.

 

2. Collector B started collecting when he was a child, in the seventies. He would buy books right off the rack when the books were sold. After purchase the he would store well, attempting to preserve their condition. Over the next several years he has about 5000 books of various publishers. Again he has many bronze and modern age books, although he does have some silver obtained through trades from friends.

 

Both collectors have pretty much the same issues, should there be a distiction between someone who has sought books later and someone who collected them as published?

[PovertyRow]

Both collectors have pretty much the same issues, should there be a distiction between someone who has sought books later and someone who collected them as published?

 

That very neatly sums up the pedigree (the off-the-rack buyer). The real bottom line, the thing that even MADE the idea of Pedigree come into existence is, in my opinion, provenance. The off-the-rack collection - those books have real provenance. The one who acquired books at shows, back issue bins etc - there is no provenance to those books.

 

In the world of antiques, provenance has always provided increased value to an item. For example, a piece of antique jewelry accompained by an original recipet from the store and a photograph of someone's granny wearing it - that same piece has more value because of the provenance provided by the accompanying documentation.

[sfilosa]

Both collectors have pretty much the same issues, should there be a distiction between someone who has sought books later and someone who collected them as published?

 

Collectors A books DO NOT have UNIFORMITY to them.

 

Most of Collectors B books WILL HAVE UNIFORMITY to them.

 

Therefore, Collector B's books could be a pedigree.

 

The reason I probably wouldn't call either one pedigrees is because I believe pedigree collections should have many books that are pre-1965. After 1965, it is much easier to find, beautiful high grade copies with very little wear or age shown on the book.

 

 

[Rip]

"Both collectors have pretty much the same issues, should there be a distiction between someone who has sought books later and someone who collected them as published?"

 

I'd like to try and answer this question.

 

If collector B started collecting in the 70's I would say the books would have to be of "very high quality" to make them stand apart. But if he started buying books from, say the 50's. Then it starts to become distinctive. What makes collection B more desirable is...

 

1. More than likely collection B will have better page quality. Both whiter pages and higher gloss.

The books have been moved around less, handled less and subjected to less light.

 

2. More than likely collection B will have a less chance at nasty surprizes. (Restoration)

If some did have color touches put on upon them, the original owner is right there to tell you.

 

3. Collection B will be something new. It funny but many collectors like to own something that hasn't been around the block.

 

4. Collection B will many times have a more uniform quailty to them. When putting together runs of these, the books will tend to have the same fresh looking high technical and physical appearance.

 

Now that you have CGC (to the best of there ability) determine the technical grade and possible restoration, what stands out most in a pedigree IMO is EXCEPTIONAL DISTINCTIVE gloss and page quality. When you buy a pedigree many times that VF pedigree copy will be more desirable than the VF+ non pedigree. When you start looking at 60's books and before, this very exceptional quality and "UNIFORM APPEARANCE" really begins to stand out. With 70's books and up this "EXCEPTIONAL QUALITY" needs is to be EVEN MORE DISTINCTIVE. The stronger the books live up to these high qualities, the stronger pedigree name will achieve consumer confidance, there by achieving a higher price.

I for one WILL pay MORE for these type of books and WILL continue to do so.

[PedigreeMan]

Geez, I step away from the forums for a bit and miss out on the bulk of this interesting conversation. That'll teach me! Break out the handcuffs and chain me to my PC, already!!

 

Anyway, everyone has pretty much answered the way I would have, but I would like to expand on a few comments:

 

sfilosa wrote:

I've stated this several times, but what makes owning Pedigree books worthwhile to me is seeing UNIFORMED runs of books from the same title. Just owning one Mile High doesn't create the effect as own five issues in a row.

 

Very true, and this does remain the ultimate goal for all of us pedigree collectors. However, owning a single pedigree copy can also be quite fulfilling: I got actual chills when I opened my first Cosmic Aeroplane book and saw all those obsessive little check marks I had read about.

 

sfilosa also wrote:

Maybe I buy one book and really like the gloss. So now I might want to get more books from this collection. Having it labeled as a pedigree, helps me find these books.

 

This is really how the whole pedigree thing started. Long before Chuck brought the Edgar Church collection to market, high grade collectors were asking for "those Larson books" or "those Tom Reilly books," because they would consistently see those distinguishing marks on a number of the issues they were purchasing.

 

Of course, after the 22,000+ Church books were released, collectors with the above trait increased exponentially, leading to a greater desire among dealers to label their finds. All of this came to a head in the '90s when bought-second-hand collections like the laughable "IRS Pedigree" and Bob Overstreet's hoard came on the market. This ultimately led to an attempt at determining just "What is a pedigree?" and can be felt most profoundly in the various articles in CBM #32. Everyone should track down a copy ASAP.

 

Zonker wrote:

A Pedigree is a Marketing gimmick, no more no less.

 

While I agree with this statement for the most part, I have to take issue with the "no more, no less" qualifier. Just like there are collectors of western books or romance books or shark-covers books or price variants, there are collectors who seek out pedigrees. In my own case, I've always enjoyed the story or memory behind a comic book more than the content itself! I wouldn't be able to tell you one plot point about 99% of the comics I've read, but you can bet I would be able to relate an anecdote about most of their purchases or readings. Unique? Absolutely. But one can see how it would dovetail nicely with being a pedigree collector.

 

Zonker also wrote:

If the Marketing gimmick is successful, then it becomes recognized as a pedigree. If it is not, then we never hear about it again.

 

Absolutely! A prime example of this is the Okajima pedigree. Despite being a rather smallish collection of non-keys, Alan Bahr truly loved these books and promoted the heck out of them. They're also quite prevalent on eBay and Heritage, which serves to keep their name out there among the collectors.

 

Where CGC comes into all this is to simply provide the information that a book is from such-and-such pedigree or collection, leaving it up to the collector to decide if it is worth owning. In the end, decisions about pedigrees are like those that deal with pornography: You know them when you see them. And just like the definition of pornography, everyone is bound to have a different interpretation. With a bit of research (again, everyone track down a copy of CBM #32) and experience, a collector will eventually obtain their own comfort level of which pedigrees are "good" or "true" versus which are "bad" or "stupid."

 

Alan

[Moriarty]

Well..the figure quoted to me was substantially higher which if true, the seller is a total insufficiently_thoughtful_person to not have accepted it. The collection while high grade, doesn't have books that the major dealers would rush towards to buy and sell to their clients. I can understand why Geppi would like these books but anyone else? Unlikely as a lot!

 

It really wouldn't surprise me if Geppi wanted to purchase the entire collection just for the sake of acquiring the Micky Mouse book & then hold on to it for a couple of years then flip it like all his other books. Yeah, a collection devoid of any keys/main stream titles shouldn't even warrant a pedigree designation IMHO.

[Moriarty]

Borg,

Very interesting to hear the RUMOR that some of the 245 in the Vancouver pedigree may have come from the Comstock. Did not know that the Comstock included Timely #1's that were 9.2 or better with pure wht pages.

Greggy & I know the finder of the Vancouver pedigree & he would NOT have paid a decent % of guide to get the books from Comstock as he usually handles estates/comicshop bankruptcies/overstock at 10 cents on the $ or less.

 

Let's just say the info came from one of the top guys' in the biz. What's the story on the Comstock collection anyway, don't think I've heard much regarding it's provenance from CBM back issues or Overstreet for that matter.

 

Who knows what could've happened to the previous owner of these books. Just think back to last December when that Italian-treasure guy decided to liquidate all his high-end books at Heritage. Now no one would have even suspected he was in financial difficulties considering his prowess on eBay & on the convention floor.

[sfilosa]

This ultimately led to an attempt at determining just "What is a pedigree?" and can be felt most profoundly in the various articles in CBM #32. Everyone should track down a copy ASAP.

 

 

It's where I got a lot of my ideas, especially the uniformity of runs.

 

Plus, I do own only one Cosmic Airplane pedigree book, and it was very cool to see those check marks for the first time.

 

 

 

 

[Moriarty]

A number of the more recent pedigrees have been "declared" as such by CGC at the request of dealers, including Western Penn, Curator, and the others mentioned here. I'm in the process of doing research for a series of articles documenting the stories behind a lot of the newer or previously undocumented pedigrees, and I've already interviewed Chris, the discoverer of this new Vancouver collection. I should have an article done for it by this weekend to be published in an upcoming issue of the Comics Buyer's Guide. Most of the other pedigrees are taking longer to research and I won't be done with them for months.

 

FF,

 

Any chance you can give the guys/gals here a sneak preview of your upcoming articles after you've finished writing it this weekend.

[Moriarty]

This ultimately led to an attempt at determining just "What is a pedigree?" and can be felt most profoundly in the various articles in CBM #32. Everyone should track down a copy ASAP.

 

 

It's where I got a lot of my ideas, especially the uniformity of runs.

 

Plus, I do own only one Cosmic Airplane pedigree book, and it was very cool to see those check marks for the first time.

 

 

 

 

Oh don't worry about CBM # 32, I've got 2 copies on file. Not only is that issue supa cool, everyone should also check out Overstreets Gold & Silver Quarterly # 6, where Jon Berk did that masterpiece on Lamont Larson & how he came about tracking him down at Nebraska.

[PedigreeMan]

This ultimately led to an attempt at determining just "What is a pedigree?" and can be felt most profoundly in the various articles in CBM #32. Everyone should track down a copy ASAP.

 

 

It's where I got a lot of my ideas, especially the uniformity of runs.

 

Plus, I do own only one Cosmic Airplane pedigree book, and it was very cool to see those check marks for the first time.

 

Oh don't worry about CBM # 32, I've got 2 copies on file. Not only is that issue supa cool, everyone should also check out Overstreets Gold & Silver Quarterly # 6, where Jon Berk did that masterpiece on Lamont Larson & how he came about tracking him down at Nebraska.

 

There's a cool follow-up to the Larson story in CBM #75.

[fantastic_four]

A Pedigree is a Marketing gimmick, no more no less.

 

In most cases, I agree. However, there are certain collections that are so comparatively nice (Mile High, San Francisco, Curator) or that have such interesting stories behind them (San Francisco, Green River, Curator) that it's just interesting to hear the stories; San Francisco particularly just tugs at the heartstrings. My girlfriend and her sister could care less about high grade, but when I told them the stories of Mile High and San Francisco, they were fascinated and said "somebody should make a movie about that!" And I guess they did, sorta...the story in "Comic Book Villains" is loosely based upon the pedigree concept.

 

Pedigrees don't make me want to pay more for a comic, but I still like some of the stories. It was hearing only half or none of the stories behind them that made me want to research them in the first place.