No More Grades, Just BIG NUMBERS!

[BronzeBruce13]

On a related note, one other benefit of a numeric grade only is that it would reduce the old bait-and-switch tactic used by many sellers advertising "CGC NM" in the title, only to be trying to sell a 9.0 or 9.2. I hate that!

 

I mentioned that early on in one of the threads. I'm in agreement that if the text "NM" is nowhere on the label, that practice would decrease somewhat. How much, I don't know... some will still try and misdirect if they can.

 

REMEMBER TO TAKE THE POLL ON THE TOP OF PAGE 10.

so far....

 

Have you ever sent in an undamaged slab just to get a newer label?

(Total Votes: 16)

 

Yes, for personal preference............(0) 0%

Yes, for resale intentions only..........(1) 06%

No...................................................(13) 81%

No, but I would if I wasn't lazy..........(2) 12%

[comicwiz]

I have no idea why you think the new CGC numbers-only plan is going to mysteriously rehabilitate all of the EBay scammers?

 

"Oh no, numbers!!! Better sit up and fly right!"

 

Really!! MIkes theory sounds logical to me. Lets recap what you've managed to offer up so far, shall we:

 

Breaking News

CGC and all comic dealers who have used their services involved in an effort to collude. Plan designed to cheat and leech more sucka bucks from unassuming collectors.

 

After a long hiatus on the CGC forum, joe_collector offers up a new theory on the "new" CGC label, and other related conspriacies. Read All About It....

[musicmeta]

Bottom line for me is that removing the alpha grade obviously does more harm then good and having it there satisfies both worlds. BRING BACK THE ALPHA GRADE. Newbies will just have to learn just like the rest of us have. You can't jump into a hobby and be an expert overnight.

 

 

[lighthouse]

Bottom line for me is that removing the alpha grade obviously does more harm then good and having it there satisfies both worlds. BRING BACK THE ALPHA GRADE. Newbies will just have to learn just like the rest of us have. You can't jump into a hobby and be an expert overnight.

 

This kind of logic is why the US still hasn't adopted the 20th century metric system...

[OldGuy]

On a related note, one other benefit of a numeric grade only is that it would reduce the old bait-and-switch tactic used by many sellers advertising "CGC NM" in the title, only to be trying to sell a 9.0 or 9.2. I hate that!

 

I won't stop using the NM, VF, etc description in my auctions. Why would I?

[musicmeta]

I'm all for the Metric system, should have been on it years ago.

STILL WANT THAT ALPHA GRADE ON CGC COMICS!!!.

What is the harm leaving it on? I have more information that way.

 

 

[PovertyRow]

This kind of logic is why the US still hasn't adopted the 20th century metric system...

 

You are incorrect. If you look at many measuring devices today, like measuring cups, rulers etc you will see metric on one side/edge and our beloved foot/ounce type measurements on anotgher side/edge. They seem to co-exist nicely this way.

[drbanner]

I won't stop using the NM, VF, etc description in my auctions. Why would I?

 

Using the alpha grades (which is the only grading nomenclature I use on my raw books anyway) is not a problem...if the title matches the description!!

 

The problem is that some ebay sellers list their items with "CGC NM" in the title, but the description actually clarifies that it's a "CGC 9.2" (or whatever). People selling raw books do the same thing to some extent, but with the alpha-numeric combo grades it's easier to make it all a little fuzzy...

[lighthouse]

This kind of logic is why the US still hasn't adopted the 20th century metric system...

 

You are incorrect. If you look at many measuring devices today, like measuring cups, rulers etc you will see metric on one side/edge and our beloved foot/ounce type measurements on anotgher side/edge. They seem to co-exist nicely this way.

 

You're actually making my point for me here, POV...

 

The simultaneous use of two different standards deters the adoption of the new standard... We currently have both systems listed on measuring devices and food items... But we still buy our gas in gallons, measure our highway speeds in miles-per-hour, and describe our weather in Farenheit... None of those will ever change as long as we take the slow and gradual approach because it will never be the "right" time...

 

US kids have been taught the metric system in schools for decades. They all learn the metric system in all of their science classes. And then we send them out into society and say it's 85 degrees outside and you can't drive faster than 20 in a school zone... Every person in this country under the age of 40 has already learned the metric system, and still it's not in use... and the reason it's not in use is because "We should allow time for a transition to let people get used to the new system..."

 

 

[Darthdiesel]

This kind of logic is why the US still hasn't adopted the 20th century metric system...

 

You are incorrect. If you look at many measuring devices today, like measuring cups, rulers etc you will see metric on one side/edge and our beloved foot/ounce type measurements on anotgher side/edge. They seem to co-exist nicely this way.

 

Ludd.. Aw, hell, you know what's coming...

[PovertyRow]

The simultaneous use of two different standards deters the adoption of the new standard...

 

But they are NOT two different standards. And that is a point I have been trynig to make and no one seems to want to address it. They are two ways of EXPRESSING the same SAME standard.

 

As I have said before, This is part of what troubles me about your idea that alpha grades are outmoded. There is no "leap into the future". The numeric grades have their roots in the alpha grades. The existing numeric grades are exactly reflected by the alpha and vice-versa. They are simply retaining the same numeric grades and removing their alpha counterpart. There is nothing new here, nor futuristic.

 

I don't know why this keeps getting ignored but it really a core issue.

[ArAich]

The following is a "Theoretical Ebay Listing":::

 

 

Title:Showcase #43 CGC Graded NM/M ?

 

Description:Here we have a wonderful HIGH GRADE copy of Showcase #43. As you can tell by the scan it is a beautiful book that has been bestowed a HIGH GRADE by CGC. I believe the book looks NM/M.

 

(end listing)

 

Now the listing could be construed as accurate but the book has an 8.0 grade in big numbers and a "moronic newbie" would have no way to make the connection that 8.0 does not mean anything close to NM/M. This is only a quick example of scams yet to come because of the advent of a less informative label...

[joe_collector]

and the reason it's not in use is because "We should allow time for a transition to let people get used to the new system..."

 

Whoa, slow down there Fidel...

 

I am a Canuck, and I measure my gasoline and milk in litres, while I use Cups and Teaspoons while cooking. That's my choice and I'm happy with the freedom a dual-standard in measuring tools offers me.

 

You seem to prefer the hardline approach, and instituting your personal preference by carrying a big standard.

 

You also ASSUME that your opinions are the BEST/ONLY option. You say NUMBERS are better than LETTERS and I disagree, and there is no way to prove either of us "right". It's personal choice and freedom.

 

Then again, if measuring cups were controlled by a large entity, encompassing all the large cup dealers and media outlets, and holding an effective monopoly, freedom of choice wouldn't enter into the equation.

 

At that point, they could label everything in Arabic and use hyroglyphics for grades.

[NoImSpartacus]

 

The problem is that some ebay sellers list their items with "CGC NM" in the title, but the description actually clarifies that it's a "CGC 9.2" (or whatever). People selling raw books do the same thing to some extent, but with the alpha-numeric combo grades it's easier to make it all a little fuzzy...

 

Analogy between coins and comics. Years ago the coin system used to have words like Gem BU meaning Gem Brilliant Uncirculated or Gem Mint. The problem was these words gave collectors a wide range of terms to promote their coins. Brilliant uncalculated to some could mean what is now is known as an MS63 or MS64 or and MS65. The difference in price range was just like the difference in price range between an 8.5 , a 9.4, and a 10.00. The problem was a dealer could take a coin and advertise it as a Brilliant Uncirculated coin and or Gem Mint or Gem Uncirculated or Gem Brilliant Uncirculated causing alot of confusion very similar to what is mentioned in the above post quote. The buyer would think he was getting an MS 65 coin when in fact he was only getting an MS63 which was worth a fraction of what an MS65 was worth. Very similar to our 9.8 grade as opposed to a 9.0 grade. So, the terminology was taken away and replaced from a 1 to 70 scale.

What is interesting with the coins is that one does not see alot of inbetween grades. Usually you see and MS60 or and MS63 or MS65. In between grades are hard like MS61 or MS62 because the differences between MS60s,63s,and 65s are so slight. It will be interesting to see what grades prevail in the comic market as it slowly moves over with the new system. Just like the coin market. I don’t like it either but I don’t think you will see a reversal of it simply because as things become more specialized and big money is on the table terms like VF/NM totally confuse people who don’t know what they are doing. We have to understand that most if not all board members just by the sake of being here know what the language means and what we are doing. A good portion of those outside this realm do not. When we say Fine minus as a grade that may be okay for people who know what to expect. To a novice, he may feel its a dealers way of saying that the comic is softening a book that the dealer really believes is in VG condition. Just like the coin guys, using numbers is the way around that. This way, one can say theirs is simply a 8.5 or 8.6 or 8.7 etc. Its like taking the analogy of gem gem brilliant uncalculated Mint BU nomenclature out of it and just replacing it with numbers they can understand. It is interesting to note that back then, MS 70s skyrocketed at first and then came down to earth exactly the way 9.8 books seem to have now. I think you will find that if you go over coin market history just after the first grading company opened, you will find a great parallel with the comics and may be able to determine exactly what will take place to specific comic grades in the future. I equat an MS 63 coin to about a 8.5 grade, an MS65 coin to a 9.0 MS67 to a9.6 and an MS70 to a 10.00. If one looks back, you will see that MS65 coins skyrocketed then died down and corrected to a level above what they were to begin with but not as high as they had when they skyrocketed. Next thing was MS63 rose to meet the difference or open space between the large money gap of MS63 to MS65. Very similar to how us now buying 8.5 and 9.0s instead of 9.8s.

Anyway, I dont mean to ramble on with a coin lesson here. I am just making an analogy so you all who have no background in coins can see how they relate to comics. Dont get me rolling on the baseball guys. Thats a whole other area again. Lets just say a numbered slab makes it a whole lot easier for them. Arent those the guys who got nailed with all the extra valiant and image books back in 1995 cause they knew about baseball cards and not about comics until it was too late? Anyway, thats a whole other post.

Forgive my long post. Im reading this at lunch between clients at Gold gym and got on a roll. Sorry.

[joe_collector]

I don't know why this keeps getting ignored but it really a core issue.

 

You've got to understand this is basic maipulation at its best. Alpha and Numeric denote much the same thing, and neither is too "futuristic" or "ground-breaking" in my opinion...

 

But, the easiest way to put something over on non-adherents is to make it seem that the new method is newer, fresher or somehow more hip, and that staying with a other scenario makes you a "Luddite", "fogey" or some-such derogatory term.

 

It's how corporations market to pinhead teens.

 

It's amusing these guys feel their pre-school tactics are so devious and cunning.

[NoImSpartacus]

I agree with you!!!

[FlyingDonut]

I don't know why this keeps getting ignored but it really a core issue.

 

You've got to understand this is basic maipulation at its best. Alpha and Numeric denote much the same thing, and neither is too "futuristic" or "ground-breaking" in my opinion...

 

But, the easiest way to put something over on non-adherents is to make it seem that the new method is newer, fresher or somehow more hip, and that staying with a other scenario makes you a "Luddite", "fogey" or some-such derogatory term.

 

It's how corporations market to pinhead teens.

 

It's amusing these guys feel their pre-school tactics are so devious and cunning.

 

How many comic books in America are sold that are CGC slabbed vs. non-slabbed? When you answer this question, the argument has merit. I would imagine that of the entire back issue market, perhaps 1% of all books are slabbed. The overwhelming majority of books are sold "raw" - go to any convention and start counting the slabbed vs. the non-slabbed books.

[drbanner]

If I understand your thesis correctly, what you're saying is that initially, the use of combo grades in coin grading led to abuse by unscrupulous sellers, whereas the use of a single grade system (could be alpha, could be numeric, the coin industry went with numeric) helped minimize the potential for abuse, which is exactly what my point was.

 

Thanks...I think?

 

[joe_collector]

How many comic books in America are sold that are CGC slabbed vs. non-slabbed?

 

Easily less than 1%, but who cares? I buy select CGC books, and it's those I do care about.

 

Once the second Blue Lable books dry up, I guess I'm just about done.

[joe_collector]

If I understand your thesis correctly, what you're saying is that initially, the use of combo grades in coin grading led to abuse by unscrupulous sellers, whereas the use of a single grade system (could be alpha, could be numeric, the coin industry went with numeric) helped minimize the potential for abuse, which is exactly what my point was.

 

There's one BIG difference Banner. Coins had multiple numerical grades per alpha grade, so abuse was quite obvious. It would be like CGC using NM 9.3, NM 9.4 and NM 9.5. If a listing came up with CGC NM, it could hypothetically be any of three different numerical grades.

 

Under the current One-to-One relationship with CGC grades, it's not a problem, and could not be a reason behind the change.

 

But it could be if CGC does as I predict, and opens up some new numbers in the 8.0 and 9.0 ranges.