Why CGC doesn't release their grading standards...

[lighthouse]

While I hesitated to start yet another thread about this, apparently I didn't hesitate long enough...

 

Seems like about 5 times a month we get another brouhaha about CGC's grading standards, They come up in "Guess the grade" threads. They come up in "Why can't stckwzrd grade" threads. This week it's "Shiny new label" threads. Folks here have a financial stake in being able to predict what those standards are, after all. If greggy and I both see a gorgeous copy of Batman 238 and one of us guesses 9.4 and the other guesses 9.6, there's a pretty big financial gain for the one who is right. Either because they got a book worth three times as much, or because they avoided buying a book worth a third as much...

 

Some of the folks here want the standards released because of some conspiracy theory. Some want them released because they want to learn to grade better. Some want them released so they can be more successful at the flipping game...

 

But those standards will never be released. They can't be. Because of one word. Lawyers.

 

CGC won't ever release their standards, and can't ever release their standards, because if they did they would open themselves up to thousands of lawsuits. Our society is so litigious that CGC wouldn't be able to stay in business for two months with published standards.

 

"Your standards say that you can't have a 3/16" crease in 9.6! I paid $13,000 for this book and it should only be a 9.4! I demand $8,000 in compensatory damages!"

 

"Your standards say all the flaws on this book are acceptable in 8.5, but you only gave it an 8.0! It sold for $800 less than it should have!"

 

"Your standards say a book with a chip that big shouldn't get a 9.2! But the book Heritage just sold has one and I am out $20K because my copy isn't the highest on the census anymore!"

 

Stop and think about it for a minute or two... You know it's true... You know that's exactly what would happen. And even though their disclaimer on the back of the label reminds folks that grading is subjective and the assigned grade is an opinion, it wouldn't matter. If they have published standards that a 3/16" crease in not acceptable in 9.6, any lawyer worth his salt can get a settlement. And don't think for a minute that because comic collectors are such cool people it wouldn't happen. Money cuts a lot of ties...

 

CGC will never release their grading standards... They can't...

[fantastic_four]

Oh lord, here come a bevy of conspiracy theories. But, to be fair to the conspiracy theorists and critical of CGC...the conspiracy theories arise in the absence of clear public statements from CGC itself, so the theories are somewhat understandable.

 

They might suffer these kinds of lawsuits, but I'm fairly sure they'd win. CGC very explicitly doesn't guarantee their grading. They're the "Comics Guaranty LLC"; a guaranty is a best-faith, best-effort that a good job was done, not a guarantee.

 

I think they don't release their standards because putting standards down on paper in explicit detail is incredibly time-consuming. The decision to "adopt" the Overstreet standards was a free way to avoid that kind of work. They've maintained all along that their standards weren't made up on their own, that they were extracted by doing research on the way dealers graded. I think they eventually realized that Overstreet's standards mostly come from dealer surveys much like their own do, and that the dealers they surveyed were heavily influenced by reading Overstreet's standards too. I would have to assume that the CGC graders themselves have also been influenced by Overstreet's standards...so it was only natural to finally go ahead and officially adopt them.

 

I don't see a huge schism between CGC's and Overstreet's standards...any differences are rather minor. Do they need to be fixed? Yes. Is CGC to blame for not sorting out all the inconsistencies in the comparatively young history of comic book grading? Because of the money surrounding these books and the semi-authoritative position they've attained in the industry, they're being held accountable by a lot of people...but the reality is that still doesn't mean they're not a young company working with an industry's grading standards that have a ways to go before they become as precise as the 25-notch scale demands. It's a reality that seems harsh and unacceptable to people who plunk down a bunch of money on CGC books, but it's an understandable one if you take the history of grading into consideration.

[AlexH]

While I hesitated to start yet another thread about this, apparently I didn't hesitate long enough...

 

Seems like about 5 times a month we get another brouhaha about CGC's grading standards, They come up in "Guess the grade" threads. They come up in "Why can't stckwzrd grade" threads. This week it's "Shiny new label" threads. Folks here have a financial stake in being able to predict what those standards are, after all. If greggy and I both see a gorgeous copy of Batman 238 and one of us guesses 9.4 and the other guesses 9.6, there's a pretty big financial gain for the one who is right. Either because they got a book worth three times as much, or because they avoided buying a book worth a third as much...

 

Some of the folks here want the standards released because of some conspiracy theory. Some want them released because they want to learn to grade better. Some want them released so they can be more successful at the flipping game...

 

But those standards will never be released. They can't be. Because of one word. Lawyers.

 

CGC won't ever release their standards, and can't ever release their standards, because if they did they would open themselves up to thousands of lawsuits. Our society is so litigious that CGC wouldn't be able to stay in business for two months with published standards.

 

"Your standards say that you can't have a 3/16" crease in 9.6! I paid $13,000 for this book and it should only be a 9.4! I demand $8,000 in compensatory damages!"

 

"Your standards say all the flaws on this book are acceptable in 8.5, but you only gave it an 8.0! It sold for $800 less than it should have!"

 

"Your standards say a book with a chip that big shouldn't get a 9.2! But the book Heritage just sold has one and I am out $20K because my copy isn't the highest on the census anymore!"

 

Stop and think about it for a minute or two... You know it's true... You know that's exactly what would happen. And even though their disclaimer on the back of the label reminds folks that grading is subjective and the assigned grade is an opinion, it wouldn't matter. If they have published standards that a 3/16" crease in not acceptable in 9.6, any lawyer worth his salt can get a settlement. And don't think for a minute that because comic collectors are such cool people it wouldn't happen. Money cuts a lot of ties...

 

CGC will never release their grading standards... They can't...

 

You make some very good points. While I agree with you in the sense that most Companies would not be willing to give out their trade secrets, maybe they should give "tips" on how to spot problems.

 

For example, one of the toughest things for me to spot is restoration. Why not have a column for giving tips on how to spot restored books.

 

Maybe have a column on elements that degrade books faster. Such as, what affect (if any) does cigarette smoke have in degrading a book. Just some thoughts...

[joe_collector]

This "lawyer" argument has been trotted out many times, but it fails to hold water in the presence of verified grading standards available from Coin and Sportscard grading companies.

 

These guys deal in high-end, incredibly valuable graded items, and in the case of coinees, these sale prices (and therefore the potential liability) dwarf anything the comic biz has to offer. Why are they able to release grading standards, yet CGC seems unwilling?

 

It should be quite obvious for two reasons:

 

1) CGC doesn't need to. With no viable competition and a CGC coalition comprising all the industry heavyweights from the largest dealers, down to the media outlets like Wizard, CGC may not have to for a long time. CGC and their owners/dealers/Wizard hold all the industry cards.

 

2) It gives CGC leeway to adjust their internal grading standards as time goes by, and not be forced into a corner by releasing them early. This was going on with the early Modern subs, some of which were severely undergraded (Iron Fist 14 is a great example) using a standard more tuned for new comics. I personally know of Iron Fist Brown Label 9.2-9.4 books that came back CGC 9.6 unpon resub. Same books, slightly adjusted standards for the 77-79 years.

 

On the same note, this also lets CGC adopt the long-standing tradition of putting Moderns under the microscope, while letting older books away with a few more defects per grade. It's also much easier to react to industry change or a new competitor if your grading guidelines are not a known quantity. OS grading has changed drastically over the years, and CGC is well aware of this.

 

Please note that this is not a slam on CGC, but an illustration of their good business sense. If no competitor forces their hand into releasing a written-in-stone grading standard, then why make life harder on your company?

[OldGuy]

There's a 3rd party that grades comics?

[fantastic_four]

I agree with you almost entirely, especially with regards to their thinking for not publishing the standards for their first two years of operation. But with all of the heat they've taken from almost everybody about not publishing their standards, and with competition looming, I suspect they've changed their minds about not releasing them. The heat they were taking for it has been intense and mostly unrelenting...which is why their announcement that they were "adopting the Overstreet standard" didn't surprise me.

 

I think their main mistake with this announcement was in the way they worded it. Instead of saying they were going to "adopt" Overstreet's standards, they should have said something like "with the changes collaboratively made by Gemstone and CGC to the grading standards described by the 2002 Overstreet Grading Guide, we can now say that CGC's internal standards are close enough to Overstreet's to officially say that they are the same. We will continue to consult with Gemstone to resolve any slight differences which remain between our current standard and theirs."

 

I don't get why the discussions in these forums are still in the direction of "why won't they release their standards?!!?" CGC claims they HAVE released their standards--that their standards and Overstreet's are the same. The discussions should instead focus on how CGC still differs from the Overstreet standard.

 

And please, everyone...no more using the word "nomenclature"...we get it, Overstreet uses NM 9.4 and CGC doesn't and that's a terrible crime that CGC has perpetrated upon all us innocent collectors.

[mlovest]

Yes, I understand the CGC has stated they use Overstreet standards. There will always be consistency issues as the graders will always be human. My concern is why don't they simply provide more info? For the normal CGC user--both submitter and purchaser of slabbed books--will never develop the reputation of being a trusted grader like a 3rd party. The 3rd party grading is what is really the value added.

 

Mike

[Shield]

While I hesitated to start yet another thread about this, apparently I didn't hesitate long enough...

 

Seems like about 5 times a month we get another brouhaha about CGC's grading standards, They come up in "Guess the grade" threads. They come up in "Why can't stckwzrd grade" threads. This week it's "Shiny new label" threads. Folks here have a financial stake in being able to predict what those standards are, after all. If greggy and I both see a gorgeous copy of Batman 238 and one of us guesses 9.4 and the other guesses 9.6, there's a pretty big financial gain for the one who is right. Either because they got a book worth three times as much, or because they avoided buying a book worth a third as much...

 

Some of the folks here want the standards released because of some conspiracy theory. Some want them released because they want to learn to grade better. Some want them released so they can be more successful at the flipping game...

 

But those standards will never be released. They can't be. Because of one word. Lawyers.

 

CGC won't ever release their standards, and can't ever release their standards, because if they did they would open themselves up to thousands of lawsuits. Our society is so litigious that CGC wouldn't be able to stay in business for two months with published standards.

 

"Your standards say that you can't have a 3/16" crease in 9.6! I paid $13,000 for this book and it should only be a 9.4! I demand $8,000 in compensatory damages!"

 

"Your standards say all the flaws on this book are acceptable in 8.5, but you only gave it an 8.0! It sold for $800 less than it should have!"

 

"Your standards say a book with a chip that big shouldn't get a 9.2! But the book Heritage just sold has one and I am out $20K because my copy isn't the highest on the census anymore!"

 

Stop and think about it for a minute or two... You know it's true... You know that's exactly what would happen. And even though their disclaimer on the back of the label reminds folks that grading is subjective and the assigned grade is an opinion, it wouldn't matter. If they have published standards that a 3/16" crease in not acceptable in 9.6, any lawyer worth his salt can get a settlement. And don't think for a minute that because comic collectors are such cool people it wouldn't happen. Money cuts a lot of ties...

 

CGC will never release their grading standards... They can't...

 

 

I for one completely and totally 100% agree with you. I've often thought about it, and if it were maybe a different day, I would've started a thread that echoes yours.

You're exactly right, and I for one don't blame CGC. This world is litigious enough!

 

5 stars for you! (Now off to read everyone's reply)...

[RTBrandy]

They might suffer these kinds of lawsuits, but I'm fairly sure they'd win. CGC very explicitly doesn't guarantee their grading. They're the "Comics Guaranty LLC"; a guaranty is a best-faith, best-effort that a good job was done, not a guarantee.

 

 

No they wouldn't. The cost of losing the lawsuit isn't the issue, it's the cost of defending against it, and retaining lawyers and insurance, etc.

 

They are too small a firm. Even if they win, they'd lose.

[sfilosa]

I personally believe you CAN'T list a FULL SET of GRADING STANDARDS.

 

It might be possilbe to describe all defects that can be present on a 9.9,9.8,9.6,9.4 and maybe 9.2, but once you get down to lower grades, it would be impossible.

 

So while they could be specific on a 10.0 (Mint) perfect book with one 1/16" spine stress line is now a 9.6, they couldn't possible identify all possible defects that create a VG book.

 

Plus you would have to be SO SPECIFIC with ABSOLUTELY every defect.

 

PCE tried this 10 years ago and failed. It wasn't their fault, but in reality an impossible task.

 

Remember that COINS and CARDS are no where near as complex as COMICS.

 

 

[joe_collector]

Remember that COINS and CARDS are no where near as complex as COMICS.

 

Actually, the way they are graded in 2003, high-grade coin grading can be as complex as comics, no doubt about it. I will agree with you on cards, as that's similar to grading a comic book cover.

[Mister_Comics]

Its all about taking responsibility. Less info, less responsible. Its this way in this country, in the world we live.