Game: SILVER AGE SURVIVOR SERIES - Round 7

[comix4fun]

I am still disappointed by all of the legion haters here. This book and the concepts it created deserve better.

 

It is the first Silver Age Team Book

 

It is the First Teenage Team book

 

It is the First book dealing with the future of the Universe

 

This is a way more important book that the first appearance of a man in a tin can or a rehashed norse g-d.

 

 

Oooh....first teenage team book....the counselors at my old altar boy camp will be glad to hear that.

 

The entire concept was created to give Superboy something to do.

 

How many series did they have that started and stopped and eventually got cancelled only to be rehashed later? Only one of their series cracked the 100 issue mark.....hell...The defenders kept it up longer than them in terms of consecutive issues.

 

And before you crack too hard on Iron Man and Thor. Each of their series have run over 500 issues non-stop since these first appearances....the legion might want to try and crack 130 issues before they take on a couple of pillars of the comic world for the last 40 years.

 

And in summation all I have to say is:

[JuliusSeizure]

After Showcase 4, superheroes roared back and overtook the landscape. Not that this single book was solely responsible for that, but it was the first.

 

It was just coincidence that Flash was first (and I still say Detective 225/Martian Manhunter is the first new SA DC concept), as it wasn't like the SA Flash turned out to be a genre-changing, best-selling concept like Spider-man or the FF. It could have been anyone from Green Lantern to Atom in Showcase 4, as the time was just right for a superhero revival.

 

Once the DC heroes got going again, it was Superman and Batman leading the charge at DC, and not Flash.

I don't disagree, and I don't really assign Flash more status than, say, Green Lantern because he happened to be the one the DC brass started the revival with. The point I was making was that *a* character started the superhero revival in Showcase 4 - the fact that it was the Flash is largely immaterial, yes.

 

If you're going to say Martian Manhunter was purely SA, you could say the same for Captain Comet (early Strange Adventures - 1951?). Personally, I would call Tec 225 maybe 60/40 SA/pre-SA, but I think most collectors consider Showcase 4 100% SA.

[joe_collector]

Personally, I would call Tec 225 maybe 60/40 SA/pre-SA, but I think most collectors consider Showcase 4 100% SA.

 

But I can remember in the 1980's, collectors, dealers and OS having a big battle over which was the first SA book, Detective 225 or Showcase 4, and it was bloody indeed. And wasn't Adventure 247 the most valuable (and rated as the most important) SA DC book before that?

[Fan4Fan]

This is a way more important book that the first appearance of a man in a tin can or a rehashed norse g-d.

 

Those guys are going after Legion!

[JuliusSeizure]

I am still disappointed by all of the legion haters here. This book and the concepts it created deserve better.

 

It is the first Silver Age Team Book

 

It is the First Teenage Team book

 

It is the First book dealing with the future of the Universe

 

This is a way more important book that the first appearance of a man in a tin can or a rehashed norse g-d.

 

 

Oooh....first teenage team book....the counselors at my old altar boy camp will be glad to hear that.

 

The entire concept was created to give Superboy something to do.

 

How many series did they have that started and stopped and eventually got cancelled only to be rehashed later? Only one of their series cracked the 100 issue mark.....hell...The defenders kept it up longer than them in terms of consecutive issues.

 

And before you crack too hard on Iron Man and Thor. Each of their series have run over 500 issues non-stop since these first appearances....the legion might want to try and crack 130 issues before they take on a couple of pillars of the comic world for the last 40 years.

Well, the Legion was in continuous publication from the early '70s to at least the mid-90s, sometimes with more than one book - that's a pretty good record. They also had their own little corner of the comics universe, which was good and bad for their rep. If you didn't buy Legion stories, you didn't see much of the characters crossing over into the DCU, so I could see how you might feel that the concept is fairly lightweight compared to the other choices on the list.

 

But if you started reading Legion at a time in your life where you could take a character named 'Bouncing Boy' seriously, the storytelling was quite a bit ahead of its time. For one thing, anything could happen in their walled-off world - if a character was in danger, you didn't know he'd be OK like you did when reading Justice League or to a lesser degree Avengers. Even in the SA/BA, Legion characters died, lost limbs, lost powers, etc. (Sure, many of those changes were later undone...but that certainly still happens today.) Worldwide catastrophes could happen with greater credibility because the stories were set in the future.

 

I almost liken Adventure 247 more to FF1 than to B&B 28 because it launched an entire universe of characters and stories, in addition to the Legion themselves. No, I don't consider it a more important book than FF1, but it's a heavyweight of the SA.

[JuliusSeizure]

Personally, I would call Tec 225 maybe 60/40 SA/pre-SA, but I think most collectors consider Showcase 4 100% SA.

 

But I can remember in the 1980's, collectors, dealers and OS having a big battle over which was the first SA book, Detective 225 or Showcase 4, and it was bloody indeed. And wasn't Adventure 247 the most valuable (and rated as the most important) SA DC book before that?

Was it? I honestly can't remember. It wouldn't surprise me since (despite the encomiums I just gave them) the Legion seems to have fallen on hard times, popularity-wise, in the last 10-15 years. (I think they were mishandled badly in the '90s, and there are only so many mindless reboots a fan can take.) I can remember when they were a much bigger deal.

 

I do remember hearing of the great Detective 225/Showcase 4 clashes. I was assuming that Showcase 4 had 'won' based on the market valuation of the books and, tellingly, Shadow got this SA-centric list from Overstreet and the 225 isn't on it. I think there's an argument for Detective 225 being SA, but I don't think anyone disputes that Showcase 4 is definitely SA. As originally introduced, wasn't MM more of a detective with a gimmick than a flat-out superhero, too?

[comix4fun]

Well, the Legion was in continuous publication from the early '70s to at least the mid-90s, sometimes with more than one book - that's a pretty good record. They also had their own little corner of the comics universe, which was good and bad for their rep. If you didn't buy Legion stories, you didn't see much of the characters crossing over into the DCU, so I could see how you might feel that the concept is fairly lightweight compared to the other choices on the list.

 

 

I get what you are saying but for the vast majority of that time they were relegated to "Back Up Story" material in until the late 70's.

 

The stories were well written for the most part I will give you that.

 

However, even when they got into a regular book it was as Superboy's backup players.

 

Although they appeared in Superboy regularly and were named on the cover from issue #197 (1973) the title of the book never changed from simply "Superboy" until issue #231 in 1977 (check the inside of the book....it was just "Superboy" on every single issue regardless of what the cover said on the outside.). Then they were still riding on the superboy coat-tails.

 

It wasn't until 1980 that they got their own book when Superboy left the title and it became "Legion of Superheroes"

 

Even then Superboy had to be brought back about a year later to rejoin the title.

 

I just look for more stand alone staying power and continuous ability to hold and sell a title. They spent almost 20 years being a sidelight/sidekick group of characters.

 

If we are comparing the most important books of the era you have to look at the characters staying power, popularity and enduring ability to carry a title, on their own.

 

C

[joe_collector]

Nah, it all comes down to marketability.

 

Overstreet and the hobby needed a poster child for the start of the SA, and since Martian Manhunter's first app did not include a snazzy cover appearance announcing his debut, the powers that be went with the easier-to-market and more photo-friendly Showcase #4.

 

And this is not a conspiracy theory, but actual reasons many dealers gave to going with Showcase 4, and and I don't necessarily disagree with them. Then again, if Detective 225 had featured Martian Manhunter in a killer cover pose, it would very likely have won the first SA battle.

[jmg3637]

 

OK what I was thinking was that 247 was the First Silver Age SUPER-HERO Team Up Book. ( Never Cared much for the Challengers of the Unknown)

 

Yes I know that they had trouble keeping the series running and have rebooted it several times, but that does not downplay the significance of the Concept and and this individual book. Btw how was X-Men doing b4 the reboot? (dying for over 5 years) And how many of the X-Men can be directly traced to an earlier Legion Character?

 

Btw As for Showcase 4 and 22 just being reintroductions of Golden Age Heroes, What was the Human Tourch and Submariner? Or for that matter Mr Fantastic was just an adaptation of Plastic Man/Elongated Man

 

DC did it First. Got the ground borken and the public acceptance. Marvel took the ideas and made them better thanks to Stan the Man

 

 

And I totally agree with JC for maybe the first time Martain Manhunter is the first Silver Age Superhero and a Totally new Hero to boot. It should be the First SA book and I am sure that it was not dubbed so due to the cover.

 

[joe_collector]

Btw As for Showcase 4 and 22 just being reintroductions of Golden Age Heroes, What was the Human Tourch and Submariner?

 

Okay, toss out Human Torch, Namor and Cap, along with Flash, GL, Atom, etc. and then let's list the new characters of the SA from both Marvel and DC.

 

Go...

[herc2000]

Easy Falsh 105, Adventure 247 is the first legion, nuff said. JLA 1 is a true first issue, Flash 105, is a like Green Lantern 1 to me, not as desirable as the other issues!

[Shadow]

Future prognostication: FF #1 & B&B #28 seem to quietly go about their business. (Now watch the votes trickle in more. )

[tth2]

To be honest, I don't really care about the results of this contest. What's more interesting to me is seeing the reasoning behind people's voting.

 

Clearly there is what I call the teeny-bopper contingent who are voting purely on Marvel/DC lines, and thereby show their complete lack of understanding or appreciation of comic history (similar to pre-adolescent girls who really thought [fill in the name of teen-age heartthrob] was the greatest singer in history). There is no more point debating with them than debating with my 7-year old daughter that the Beatles are musically more significant than Hilary Duff.

 

Hey Tim,

 

I'm only playing the Marvel vs DC schtick until we get down to the last 7 or 8 books on the list...

 

...since by then all those poopie DCs will be gone!

 

 

j/k

What's that, John? Sorry, I can't hear you very well because you're playing the Backstreet Boys so loud!

[toro]

Okay, what is my problem here. Almost everyone of these polls, I vote and I never can view the results? Anyone else have that problem?

[Aces]

Okay, what is my problem here. Almost everyone of these polls, I vote and I never can view the results? Anyone else have that problem?

 

Open the window/page in IE.

 

AOL sucks.

With my new PC and the lastest IE 7 I can finally vote again.

[eddly]

What power does Saturn girl have? Is there a Saturn girl comic?

[JohnT]

I am still disappointed by all of the legion haters here. This book and the concepts it created deserve better.

 

It is the first Silver Age Team Book

 

It is the First Teenage Team book

 

It is the First book dealing with the future of the Universe

 

This is a way more important book that the first appearance of a man in a tin can or a rehashed norse g-d.

 

 

Oooh....first teenage team book....the counselors at my old altar boy camp will be glad to hear that.

 

The entire concept was created to give Superboy something to do.

 

How many series did they have that started and stopped and eventually got cancelled only to be rehashed later? Only one of their series cracked the 100 issue mark.....hell...The defenders kept it up longer than them in terms of consecutive issues.

 

And before you crack too hard on Iron Man and Thor. Each of their series have run over 500 issues non-stop since these first appearances....the legion might want to try and crack 130 issues before they take on a couple of pillars of the comic world for the last 40 years.

 

And in summation all I have to say is:

 

Hold on...

 

The Legion has a long, continuous history of having their own book from 1962, when they took over Adventure Comics, to at least 2000 (not sure if they still have their own book as I don't buy new comics). They got their own book a month after Thor's first appearance, and a year before Ironman, the X-men, and the Avengers were created.

 

That's 38 years and about 400 comics, plus various limited series, and for all I know more if they've still got their own series. (Don't they have a TV show now?) It doesn't matter if they didn't have one numerically continuous series, they were always around in their own feature for decades.

 

Add to this that they started so early in the SA (1958), and were such a novel idea--a team of superpowered teenagers from the future--and you can make a strong argument that Adv 247 is more significant than many books still on our list. In fact, I think I've talked myself into not voting for it next, like I was planning to do!

[Norrin_Radd]

"The Comic That Wouldn't Leave!"

 

[JuliusSeizure]

I get what you are saying but for the vast majority of that time they were relegated to "Back Up Story" material in until the late 70's.

 

The stories were well written for the most part I will give you that.

 

However, even when they got into a regular book it was as Superboy's backup players.

Even in their Adventure Comics series, I would say they were way more than 'backup players'.

 

Although they appeared in Superboy regularly and were named on the cover from issue #197 (1973) the title of the book never changed from simply "Superboy" until issue #231 in 1977 (check the inside of the book....it was just "Superboy" on every single issue regardless of what the cover said on the outside.). Then they were still riding on the superboy coat-tails.

OK, but come on, be fair - the Legion shared billing in the logo and were the focus of every story, to point out that they weren't in the indicia seems to be really splitting hairs. They were pulling their weight as far as selling the book.

 

It wasn't until 1980 that they got their own book when Superboy left the title and it became "Legion of Superheroes"

 

Even then Superboy had to be brought back about a year later to rejoin the title.

Again, that's misleading - you make it sound like the Legion couldn't cut it on their own without Superboy in a position of prominence. Yes, they brought him back in the course of a particular storyline, but even after that he's no longer in the logo, rarely appears on the cover, and goes whole runs of issues without showing up at all. He really has no more than an emeritus role from then on.

 

I just look for more stand alone staying power and continuous ability to hold and sell a title. They spent almost 20 years being a sidelight/sidekick group of characters.

 

If we are comparing the most important books of the era you have to look at the characters staying power, popularity and enduring ability to carry a title, on their own.

I'm certainly not going to claim that the Legion was a sales powerhouse, I'm sure someone would be quick with the circulation figures to shoot me down. But people who bought it tended to really, really like it - they had their own cult sub-section of comics fandom. When I was a kid, it was one of the few titles I ever subscribed to so I'd be really sure never to miss an issue. I get what you're saying, too, but I think you're shortchanging them somewhat.

[JuliusSeizure]

And I totally agree with JC for maybe the first time Martain Manhunter is the first Silver Age Superhero and a Totally new Hero to boot. It should be the First SA book and I am sure that it was not dubbed so due to the cover.

For all I know you guys could be right about that. I think that, while not everyone agrees that Showcase 4 was the first SA book, it is the first book that everyone agrees was SA.