three things I always wondered about Chuck's Church collection

[lou_fine]

i think i read in a thread awhile back that stuff was all "leftover" aftre a few guys had picked through it already

 

i might be wrong though

 

Apparently the MH2 collection was quite well known among the East Coast dealers at the time as the son had been trying to find a buyer for the books for the longest time. None of the dealers wanted to touch the collection since the seller wanted to sell it all as one large group.

 

Nobody was willing to fork over the $180K or whatever it took to purchase the entire collection. And as Chuck has stated, there were also other associated costs such as loading the countless skids of books and then trucking them across the country. Poor boy.

 

I thought there were only 1.5 million books in the collection. Either way, Chuck manage to get them for just over a dime a copy. Supposedly, he made a lot more money from the MH2 Collection than he ever made from the original MH Collection and still has some of them left.

[shadroch]

Keep in mind that the market for late silver/bronze age books was very slow when the MH2 books were being offered around.Books like Thors in the late 100s and up,almost all Captain Americas,Iron Mans from about 6 up,later TOSs,TTas,Amazing Adventures,Avengers and Defenders and such were dollar books at best.Obviously,there were some gems hidden in there,but the majority of MH2 was very common stuff that would have been next to impossible for a store owner like myself to move.And splitting it twelve ways amongst dealers who were trolling the same customer base would have been just as foolish.

[Robert Beerbohm]

it was 2.2 million books, and the accumulation had been delved into for many many moons before Chuck got the remnants - heck, i remember cases of Conan #1 we (Comics & Comix: me, Bud Plant and John Barrett) were buying from this holdings.

 

A case of Conan #1 when we first tapped in was $600 for a box of 300 copies. We in turn retailed them $5 each, five for $20, pick your definition of mint - as we went thru some half dozen cases at that price, then it went to $900 for a case, and we got a couple more, but balked at $1200 a case

 

Rogofsky, Bell, Passasic, Grand Book Center, others, they all scooped stuff out of this vast fraudulent holdings, in that, so many were, it is called affidavit return fraud - i cover this in depth in the 25,000 combined words in Comic Book Artist 6 and 7 -

 

One of many hemorrhaging scenarios going on as the 1960s progressed, the publishers were "selling" less and less - Neal Adams was being told his books "just did not sell" Ha!

 

So, by the time in the early 1980s when what Chuck coined Mile High Two came along, it was a pittance compared to what had once been there

 

still, all in all, Chuck did quite well with what he bought - i wish i could have gotten it

[Inaflash]

Are you saying that Chuck himself has told you that he paid ten cents a book? It's a simple yes or no answer. If the answer is yes,thats fantastic as you are solving one of comicdoms greatest mysterys.

 

Chuck himself told me that the $2000 Burrel loaned him is the amount he paid for the collection. If there were 18,000 books then that is more than a dime each. If there were 22,000 then less. But he has always maintained that there were 20,000 books. That would be a dime each!

He has never said to me, "I only paid a dime a book."

He has said, "I paid $2000 for the comic collection."

 

This is odd because Chuck told me personally that he spent $90,000,000 for the collection and sold them for 10 cents each and that he eded up losing $89,998,000 on the deal.

 

Ken

[Robert Beerbohm]

Keep in mind that the market for late silver/bronze age books was very slow when the MH2 books were being offered around. Books like Thors in the late 100s and up,almost all Captain Americas,Iron Mans from about 6 up,later TOSs,TTas,Amazing Adventures,Avengers and Defenders and such were dollar books at best.Obviously,there were some gems hidden in there,but the majority of MH2 was very common stuff that would have been next to impossible for a store owner like myself to move.And splitting it twelve ways amongst dealers who were trolling the same customer base would have been just as foolish.

 

Chuck showed up at the San Diego Comicon, what? 1984? 1985? renting out a separate room adjacent to the main dealers room. This time everything came with a Cert of A saying Mile High Two - they were sucking some of the oxygen out of the room with this marketing ploy, but it did not make the impact the MH-01 accumulation had wrought in fandom at the time

 

but the bottom line is you pay a dime and sell for a dollar, the math is easy for even me to fathom, and he sold many many books for way more than that

 

and all for $100K in cash

[shadroch]

It's been quite a while,but didn't Chuck advertise most of these books for less than a dollar in various Marvels of the time.

There were other circumstances involved that made it very impractical for any East Coast Dealer to buy the entire lot.These were not nice people and they seemed to have extremely bad luck as several of their buildings had recently burned down after being struck by lightning.Luck like that has a habit of rubbing off on others.

[lou_fine]

He paid out of his own pocket for the first half ( about 10,000 books) and hauled them away that day.

 

He borrowed money from one of his customers/friends and used that money to meet his weeks expenses and came back a week later to pay for and take the remaining 8000 books.

 

At this point Chuck had paid for all of the books, but wanted to also buy/salvage other items from Mr Church. He then perhaps a week o more later, flew to Houston for a 2 day. It was during the 2nd day of this show that Chuck first met and SOLD some of the books to Burrell.

 

Chuck used the Money from Burrell to purchase another load of items from the Church heirs, however it was not comics it was boxes of clippings and another van load.

 

2 weeks after Chuck purchased those clippings Burrell , along with Bruce Hamilton, came to Colorado and purchased additional books from Chuck at a discount off then then Overstreet Guide value. Perhaps Burrel advanced Chuck $2,000 along or as a part of his prior purchase, and came out to Colorado to select the books for his repayment.

 

In any event it seems that the $2,000 from Burrell had nothing whatsoever to do with the purchase of any of the Church comic books as those books had been paid for in cash prior to Chuck ever meeting Burrell. and that that $2,000 was used to purchase some of the clippings and other personal items of Edgar. Chuck says that he overpaid for these later purchases as he knew he got an outstanding deal on the comics.

 

Chuck goes on to tell how he made additional purchases of Edgars personal items on several occasions after the initial books and how he brought a Pulp dealer into the transaction and they purchased additional items from the heirs.

 

So this leaves us not really knowing how much in total Chuck paid for either the comics or in total to the heirs for the paper contents of the house.

 

Interesting twist on the story to make Chuckles look as if he was already a successful wheeler and dealer prior to the Church collection.

 

Totally unbelieveable though, as Chuck was pretty well a destitute and probably didn't have a hundred dollars to his name at the time of the discovery. What he had was the good fortune to find the collection, the street smarts to acquire the necessary money, and the vision to know what he had found.

[Kevin76]

I think If I didn't collect OA,and had to buy keep collecting comics,I'd buy GA and try and get as many MH's as I could afford.

[Johnny G]

Yes, I used a couple of images that I found of group shots on these boards.

 

Noticed that.

 

And?

 

Let me guess, you feel proud to know that a random grouping of comics that you may, or may not own was used in a wanted poster.

 

John

The images, and arrangement of them, are his and protected as his copyright under intellectual property laws, and you should have asked his permission before using them.

 

What he said!

 

And the comics are all as was the arrangement, though the books themselves are copyright Marvel.

 

Not that I stay mad for very long.

 

If I have offended you in any way, I apologize.

 

I was searching for random groupings of comics and didn't want to make my own. Most of the images actually turned up in a Google image search. I guess I really wasn't thinking of the "legal ramifications" of using these images. I always thought that images on the web that weren't copyrighted were in the public domain? But alas, I am not a lawyer and didn't think the old folks would care much about it. Thanks for enlightening me on this issue. I will be sure to not let it happen again, afterall, we wouldn't want anyone to feel duped! I am on my way to the center to remove the posters...

 

Darn... what am I gonna do about my avatar? I can't really draw too well, I wonder how much the artist (points to anyone who knows who it is) will charge for it's use

 

John

 

the artist name is ron english, i believe, one bad mojo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! his art is awesome!!!!!

 

 

Congratulations!!!

 

Ron has some pretty cool comic related paintings. His work is a little on the wild side, but I like the wild side!

 

John

[drice6900]

I must say, this has been one of the best and most informative of any thread on this board this year

[arexcrooke]

I must say, this has been one of the best and most informative of any thread on this board this year

Too true!

[arexcrooke]

it was 2.2 million books, and the accumulation had been delved into for many many moons before Chuck got the remnants - heck, i remember cases of Conan #1 we (Comics & Comix: me, Bud Plant and John Barrett) were buying from this holdings.

 

A case of Conan #1 when we first tapped in was $600 for a box of 300 copies. We in turn retailed them $5 each, five for $20, pick your definition of mint - as we went thru some half dozen cases at that price, then it went to $900 for a case, and we got a couple more, but balked at $1200 a case

 

Rogofsky, Bell, Passasic, Grand Book Center, others, they all scooped stuff out of this vast fraudulent holdings, in that, so many were, it is called affidavit return fraud - i cover this in depth in the 25,000 combined words in Comic Book Artist 6 and 7 -

 

One of many hemorrhaging scenarios going on as the 1960s progressed, the publishers were "selling" less and less - Neal Adams was being told his books "just did not sell" Ha!

 

So, by the time in the early 1980s when what Chuck coined Mile High Two came along, it was a pittance compared to what had once been there

 

still, all in all, Chuck did quite well with what he bought - i wish i could have gotten it

Bob, were there any legal ramifications to people buying these books? Im mean, could the police have been involved and thus impounded or taken the books?

[tth2]

Ironically, most of the lawyers I know wish they had done a different vocation.

 

Nothing ironic about it. If you`re a transactional lawyer (like I am), you`re basically the white collar equivalent of a stablehand, which means you may be around great racehorses and great races, but your role on the team is to clean up everyone else`s *spoon*.

[shadroch]

it was 2.2 million books, and the accumulation had been delved into for many many moons before Chuck got the remnants - heck, i remember cases of Conan #1 we (Comics & Comix: me, Bud Plant and John Barrett) were buying from this holdings.

 

A case of Conan #1 when we first tapped in was $600 for a box of 300 copies. We in turn retailed them $5 each, five for $20, pick your definition of mint - as we went thru some half dozen cases at that price, then it went to $900 for a case, and we got a couple more, but balked at $1200 a case

 

Rogofsky, Bell, Passasic, Grand Book Center, others, they all scooped stuff out of this vast fraudulent holdings, in that, so many were, it is called affidavit return fraud - i cover this in depth in the 25,000 combined words in Comic Book Artist 6 and 7 -

 

One of many hemorrhaging scenarios going on as the 1960s progressed, the publishers were "selling" less and less - Neal Adams was being told his books "just did not sell" Ha!

 

So, by the time in the early 1980s when what Chuck coined Mile High Two came along, it was a pittance compared to what had once been there

 

still, all in all, Chuck did quite well with what he bought - i wish i could have gotten it

Bob, were there any legal ramifications to people buying these books? Im mean, could the police have been involved and thus impounded or taken the books?

 

 

Buying a warehouse full of stolen book? Nah,why would the police have been a consideration.It was the union muscle that was owed millions by these jerks that were the ones to worry about. As well as the very real possibility of the guys ripping you off.They were a cash only crowd,that didn't give reciepts.I won't have wanted to be too close to them with a suitcase full of untraceable cash.

[Aman619]

it was 2.2 million books, and the accumulation had been delved into for many many moons before Chuck got the remnants - heck, i remember cases of Conan #1 we (Comics & Comix: me, Bud Plant and John Barrett) were buying from this holdings.

 

A case of Conan #1 when we first tapped in was $600 for a box of 300 copies. We in turn retailed them $5 each, five for $20, pick your definition of mint - as we went thru some half dozen cases at that price, then it went to $900 for a case, and we got a couple more, but balked at $1200 a case

 

Rogofsky, Bell, Passasic, Grand Book Center, others, they all scooped stuff out of this vast fraudulent holdings, in that, so many were, it is called affidavit return fraud - i cover this in depth in the 25,000 combined words in Comic Book Artist 6 and 7 -

 

One of many hemorrhaging scenarios going on as the 1960s progressed, the publishers were "selling" less and less - Neal Adams was being told his books "just did not sell" Ha!

 

So, by the time in the early 1980s when what Chuck coined Mile High Two came along, it was a pittance compared to what had once been there

 

still, all in all, Chuck did quite well with what he bought - i wish i could have gotten it

Bob, were there any legal ramifications to people buying these books? Im mean, could the police have been involved and thus impounded or taken the books?

 

 

Buying a warehouse full of stolen book? Nah,why would the police have been a consideration.It was the union muscle that was owed millions by these jerks that were the ones to worry about. As well as the very real possibility of the guys ripping you off.They were a cash only crowd,that didn't give reciepts.I won't have wanted to be too close to them with a suitcase full of untraceable cash.

 

and who else but a long-haired freaky deaky hippie could dare walk right in with that suitcase of case??

 

Super Chuck!

[dekeuk]

 

Ok, all you Church experts. Maybe someone can answer these follow-up questions I have:

 

1. Other than Chuck and Church, what is the most Church comics any one individual has ever owned at any time since 1977?

 

2. Who owns the most Church comics right now at the present time?

 

3. How many Church comics did Nick Cage own when he sold off his colelction?

 

4. What is the most any single Church comic has ever sold for?

 

5. If you could have any one Church comic, other than the obvious choices like the 10 most valuable comics, what issue would it be and why?

[FlyingDonut]

Ok, all you Church experts. Maybe someone can answer these follow-up questions I have:

 

1. Other than Chuck and Church, what is the most Church comics any one individual has ever owned at any time since 1977?

 

I don't know.

 

2. Who owns the most Church comics right now at the present time?

 

Not sure, but I would guess one of Dave Anderson, Steve Geppi, or John Verzyl. I could be completely wrong.

 

3. How many Church comics did Nick Cage own when he sold off his colelction?

 

A lot.

 

4. What is the most any single Church comic has ever sold for?

 

$273K - the Flash 1

 

5. If you could have any one Church comic, other than the obvious choices like the 10 most valuable comics, what issue would it be and why?

 

The Wonder Woman 1. It was sold before anybody knew what it was, and has never been seen again.

[Timely]

Ok, all you Church experts. Maybe someone can answer these follow-up questions I have:

 

1. Other than Chuck and Church, what is the most Church comics any one individual has ever owned at any time since 1977?

 

I don't know.

 

2. Who owns the most Church comics right now at the present time?

 

Not sure, but I would guess one of Dave Anderson, Steve Geppi, or John Verzyl. I could be completely wrong.

 

3. How many Church comics did Nick Cage own when he sold off his colelction?

 

A lot.

 

4. What is the most any single Church comic has ever sold for?

 

$273K - the Flash 1

 

5. If you could have any one Church comic, other than the obvious choices like the 10 most valuable comics, what issue would it be and why?

 

The Wonder Woman 1. It was sold before anybody knew what it was, and has never been seen again.

 

Actually Nic Cage had relatively few Church books, well below 100 based on what I saw.

 

John Mclaughlin, John Verzyl and Ernie Gerber all had well over 1,000 MH's at one time. I'm sure Anderson, Carter, Rowe, Pussell and a few others are high on the list too.

 

West