three things I always wondered about Chuck's Church collection

[MrBedrock]

Actually I think that both stories are true. I think that you just have to find a way to make them both fit.

 

all it takes is a minor change in Richard's version. the 2000 was used in the entire Church Transaction, just not in the initial 2 partial purchases, which contained all the comics

 

Other wise you have to change the entire transaction from chuck version. Chuch has to find the books but not purchase any of them until he contacts Burell ( who he does not know) and gets $2000 magically transfered to him on the come. Now after getting this first chunk of money he used it spread out over 2 trips/weeks. I am sorry this just does not fit for a truely disinterested third party. Also that would have to make Chuck's loan from a customer/friend be total fiction as well as the books that the friend got out of the transaction being later sale to Geppi be an embelishment that could likely be verified to discredit him.

 

I am not doubting Richard at all, but the rememberence of the exact wording of a conversation from 30 years ago by a then 14 year old as to the dealings of his boss could much more easily be off by a word then the entire history as writen by Chuck, especially when they can be made to fit.

 

I can only relate what was told to me over many years and through many conversations. I guess the "facts" will never truly be known, but I do stand behind my story.

I do need to quibble with one thing in your above account. Chuck absolutely knew Burrell before finding the Church collection. Most everyone in comic collecting knew Burrell or at least knew off him. He was kinda like the Steve Geppi of the 1970's. He had a truly amazing collection of not just comics, but also original art. He was definitely one of, if not the biggest buyers of comics at that time. Ask Bob Beerbohm about Burrel's early record breaking purchases out of what became known as the Tom Reilly/San Fransisco collection. So if someone were to need money to buy a comic collection, he would have been the logical person to turn to. Much like Metropolis has been the logical source for capital in buying so many great collections over the last fifteen or so years.

[Aman619]

Richard's recollection of just one facet of the Church deal seems to me to be more reliable a recollection than Chuckles long, "Database" autobiography. I have no doubt in my mind that his tale of the events and his part in it are nearly a total sanitized and politicized bedtime story in which he tells it the way he WANTS it to be told and NOT as it happened. (History is written by the victors)

 

As with so many instances here on our little Boards microcosm, we hear one side of events and say "sure, sounds about right!" only until the other party arrives with the other side of the story.

 

I would enjoy hearing about those days from the Church family! Wouldnt you guys?

[shadroch]

Not really.Either the story of an uncaring family selling off their fathers prized collection while he is lingering in the hospital is true or it isn't. I seriously doubt that they will say its true,so then its all just more he said/she said.

I doubt they are as uncaring and bigoted as they come off in Chucks story,but I'm sure they wouldn't be as good as they would try to seem if they came on.Not only did they sell off the greatest comic collection ever assembled,'til that point,but they got hosed doing it.What could they say?I wouldn't mind hearing how much the sale was for,but I don't really care about the spin they'd put on it after twentyplus years.

[underthebigw]

The one thing about Chuck's account that has always perturbed me is his portrayal of the family. It's very easy for us, as collectors, to assign a value to this collection that no lay person would. On the other hand, I can't imagine them being so naive as late as 1976 regarding the value of these books.

 

Which leads to my only conclusion-- families do irrational things when presented with life and death decisions that are so overwhelming. I've been to many estate sales or garage sale where it is clear that some tragedy has struck and that the last thing a family cares about are petty material belongings they can no longer accomodate. Maybe the Church's had to be out of the house in order to complete an impending sale, maybe they couldn't even imagine what to do with the collection and were simply relieved it wouldn't end up in the dumpster, which was the only alternative they thought they had, or maybe the knew Chuck was taking them to the cleaners, but had no idea of who else to turn to or no time to hunt down other collectors/dealers. Or maybe they truly were resentful of the collection. We'll never know for sure, and only have Chuck's take on the situation, which may or may not be accurate.

[whomerjay]

The one thing about Chuck's account that has always perturbed me is his portrayal of the family. It's very easy for us, as collectors, to assign a value to this collection that no lay person would. On the other hand, I can't imagine them being so naive as late as 1976 regarding the value of these books.

 

Which leads to my only conclusion-- families do irrational things when presented with life and death decisions that are so overwhelming. I've been to many estate sales or garage sale where it is clear that some tragedy has struck and that the last thing a family cares about are petty material belongings they can no longer accomodate. Maybe the Church's had to be out of the house in order to complete an impending sale, maybe they couldn't even imagine what to do with the collection and were simply relieved it wouldn't end up in the dumpster, which was the only alternative they thought they had, or maybe the knew Chuck was taking them to the cleaners, but had no idea of who else to turn to or no time to hunt down other collectors/dealers. Or maybe they truly were resentful of the collection. We'll never know for sure, and only have Chuck's take on the situation, which may or may not be accurate.

 

I think your second paragraph is quite true; even the brightest people make very poor decisions during times of tragedy.

 

However, in 1976, and to a lesser but still significant extent today, I'm sure a good % of people had no idea as to the value of most collectibles (or recognized them as collectibles), including old comics. We are too close the topic to have a good perspective.

 

I'm reminded of the polls they take querying people as to "who's the vice-president of the US" and less than 50% know the answer.

[Mr. Zipper]

However, in 1976, and to a lesser but still significant extent today, I'm sure a good % of people had no idea as to the value of most collectibles (or recognized them as collectibles), including old comics. We are too close the topic to have a good perspective.

 

I agree totally.

 

I look at many of my elderly aunts and uncles TODAY and they wouldn't have the slightest idea of the value of a Golden Age comic book. If someone offered them $10 for an old 10 cent comic, they'd probably take the money and run! In 1976, long before ebay and before Antique Roadshow, I'd guess that 95% of the general population had no clue as to the potential value of high grade comic books.

 

Further, non-collectors have no concept of the value of "condition." They wouldn't know or appreciate the difference between a decent 6.0 and a pedigree quality 9 point whatever.

 

And for these reasons, I suspect that there are still yet undiscovered collections that some lucky finders will get for a song.

[topofthetotem]

Nobody besides a collector would know the value of the books. If I had in my possession a rare action figure or beenie baby I'd have no idea of it's value because I don't collect toys or beenie babies.

Speaking of value I thought when the family got wind of the books true value one of Church's daughters sued Chuck but was unsuccessful and upon losing she reported him to the I.R.S.

 

I'm always a little shocked when I here what people pay for what I consider stupid stuff.

A vintage pair of jeans $35000.00

Canadian tire money $500.00

$1500.00 for a zippo lighter

Anything more then cover price for a copper X-men just joking MK.

[Mr. Zipper]

Speaking of value I thought when the family got wind of the books true value one of Church's daughters sued Chuck but was unsuccessful and upon losing she reported him to the I.R.S.

 

I think that's a myth.

[topofthetotem]

Speaking of value I thought when the family got wind of the books true value one of Church's daughters sued Chuck but was unsuccessful and upon losing she reported him to the I.R.S.

 

I think that's a myth.

Too bad the I.R.S part would have made a great example of Karma.

[MK Ultra]

My karma ran over my dogma.

[underthebigw]

However, in 1976, and to a lesser but still significant extent today, I'm sure a good % of people had no idea as to the value of most collectibles (or recognized them as collectibles), including old comics. We are too close the topic to have a good perspective.

 

I agree totally.

 

I look at many of my elderly aunts and uncles TODAY and they wouldn't have the slightest idea of the value of a Golden Age comic book. If someone offered them $10 for an old 10 cent comic, they'd probably take the money and run! In 1976, long before ebay and before Antique Roadshow, I'd guess that 95% of the general population had no clue as to the potential value of high grade comic books.

 

Further, non-collectors have no concept of the value of "condition." They wouldn't know or appreciate the difference between a decent 6.0 and a pedigree quality 9 point whatever.

 

And for these reasons, I suspect that there are still yet undiscovered collections that some lucky finders will get for a song.

 

I only partially agree. I think by 1976, the assumption of 80% of the people in the US would be that if it was old, it had value. Of course, the family never could concieve of the importance of the collection or it's commensurate value, but they HAD TO know they were worth more than 10 cents a book. This is after the nostalgia craze of the late 60's and early 70's, newspapers were rife with stories of comic book and baseball card values, etc., etc. They never would have dreamed millions of dollars, but had to know they were worth more than a dime a book. Everyone I knew and grew up with (parents, grandparents, their friends, etc.) would have made this assumption. Again, I just think there were probably emotional and financial pressures to make the deal, and I don't think portraying the family as callous is necessarily accurate.

[Robert Beerbohm]

3)Chuck has never said he bought 18,000 books for $1800.Unless its a recent statement. As far as I know,he's never stated what he paid for this.The ten cents and 18,000 books is a figure thats kicked around,as is 20,000 and $2,000

2)He has described fitting them into some sort of frozen chicken boxes that were a perfect fit for transporting comics.

 

Burrel Rowe told me he loaned Chuck $2000 to buy the collection.

 

Rick is true-spot-on here - as Chuck had no money back then

 

It wasn't a loan per se, but rather, Burl got the ECs, the Fiction House, other Good Girl Art books which were very very hot at the time, GGA-term being "pioneered" by David Alexander

 

I have always heard 22,000 books

 

Once Chuck got the books, he brought down Burl's spoils of war out of it to a Houston con, as well as half a dozen long boxes of other MH books.

 

A friend of mine Don Maris bought the Supersnipe run from Chuck there at that show. DOn later sold the run thru CBG ad in the mid to late 1990s.

 

After that Houston con, Chuck flew out to a Super Sunday one day show Terry Stroud & Dave Alexander used to put on in the Hollywood area - i was there at that show - another friend of mine purchased the Thunda #1, More Fun 101 and a few others from Chuck at the Super Sunday - it was like a pirahana feeding frenzy on the side walk waiting outside to load in

[chrisco37]

Hey Bob!

 

Before Chuck found the Church books, was he known in the collecting world? In his Tales from the Database stories he mentions he had a little store in Colorado before he found the books. I'm sure he wasn't known across the country, but did you ever see him at shows out West before the Church books?

 

Or, did he just explode on the scene with his fantastic find?

[shadroch]

In the early 1980s,there was a court case involving some books that were stolen at a convention. Creation,I believe. at least one book was a very valuable Golden Age comic(Captain America#1?)

The judge said that since the comics had no price stickers,an average person would have no idea that they were worth anything more than the cover price.

I was a part-time dealer when Chuck made his buy,and I'd guess that 99% of the general public would have no idea that comics were worth much of anything.The TV stations wouldalways run a short special interest piece on comic shows around July 4th and Thanksgiving, and it would always result in a brief bump in my buying.

[ft88]

However, in 1976, and to a lesser but still significant extent today, I'm sure a good % of people had no idea as to the value of most collectibles (or recognized them as collectibles), including old comics. We are too close the topic to have a good perspective.

 

I agree totally.

 

I look at many of my elderly aunts and uncles TODAY and they wouldn't have the slightest idea of the value of a Golden Age comic book. If someone offered them $10 for an old 10 cent comic, they'd probably take the money and run! In 1976, long before ebay and before Antique Roadshow, I'd guess that 95% of the general population had no clue as to the potential value of high grade comic books.

 

Further, non-collectors have no concept of the value of "condition." They wouldn't know or appreciate the difference between a decent 6.0 and a pedigree quality 9 point whatever.

 

And for these reasons, I suspect that there are still yet undiscovered collections that some lucky finders will get for a song.

 

I only partially agree. I think by 1976, the assumption of 80% of the people in the US would be that if it was old, it had value. Of course, the family never could concieve of the importance of the collection or it's commensurate value, but they HAD TO know they were worth more than 10 cents a book. This is after the nostalgia craze of the late 60's and early 70's, newspapers were rife with stories of comic book and baseball card values, etc., etc. They never would have dreamed millions of dollars, but had to know they were worth more than a dime a book. Everyone I knew and grew up with (parents, grandparents, their friends, etc.) would have made this assumption. Again, I just think there were probably emotional and financial pressures to make the deal, and I don't think portraying the family as callous is necessarily accurate.

 

I'm thinking that almost all people would put no value on them. There are plenty of folks with 30 year old comics today that think of them as without value. A family that inherited a house filled with old magazines? In there eyes, Chuck was doing them a favor for getting rid of them. Have you ever moved? The midset that comes into play for a move is simply to get rid of everything. If someone wants to buy it all the better. That it appears that many books had been thrown away only backs up that idea.

[Robert Beerbohm]

Actually I think that both stories are true. I think that you just have to find a way to make them both fit.

 

all it takes is a minor change in Richard's version. the 2000 was used in the entire Church Transaction, just not in the initial 2 partial purchases, which contained all the comics

 

Other wise you have to change the entire transaction from chuck version. Chuch has to find the books but not purchase any of them until he contacts Burell ( who he does not know) and gets $2000 magically transfered to him on the come. Now after getting this first chunk of money he used it spread out over 2 trips/weeks. I am sorry this just does not fit for a truely disinterested third party. Also that would have to make Chuck's loan from a customer/friend be total fiction as well as the books that the friend got out of the transaction being later sale to Geppi be an embelishment that could likely be verified to discredit him.

 

I am not doubting Richard at all, but the rememberence of the exact wording of a conversation from 30 years ago by a then 14 year old as to the dealings of his boss could much more easily be off by a word then the entire history as writen by Chuck, especially when they can be made to fit.

 

I can only relate what was told to me over many years and through many conversations. I guess the "facts" will never truly be known, but I do stand behind my story.

I do need to quibble with one thing in your above account. Chuck absolutely knew Burrell before finding the Church collection. Most everyone in comic collecting knew Burrell or at least knew off him. He was kinda like the Steve Geppi of the 1970's. He had a truly amazing collection of not just comics, but also original art. He was definitely one of, if not the biggest buyers of comics at that time. Ask Bob Beerbohm about Burrel's early record breaking purchases out of what became known as the Tom Reilly/San Fransisco collection. So if someone were to need money to buy a comic collection, he would have been the logical person to turn to. Much like Metropolis has been the logical source for capital in buying so many great collections over the last fifteen or so years.

 

Burrell Rowe was indeed the "Steve Geppi" of the comics world in the 1970s - bar none. He was an attorney for the Hunt Oil Company - and was one of the true high rollers in the hobby then

 

It was Burrell who first bought a comic book (from me) for two grand: The Reilly Whiz #2 (#1)

 

he followed that up a week or so later buying the Reilly Tec 27 for $2200, the book which broke above the two grand barrier for the very first time

 

Burrell was the "go to" guy back in the day if you needed serious bucks for comic book purchases

 

here is the cover to his store's catalog when he was partners with Bruce Hamilton and Russ Cochran:

 

 

and here are a couple Church copies just coming onto the marketplace since purchased by Jerry Bails off that one time TBG catalog insert way back when:

 

[Point Five]

My karma ran over my dogma.

 

Pretty good!

[MrBedrock]

3)Chuck has never said he bought 18,000 books for $1800.Unless its a recent statement. As far as I know,he's never stated what he paid for this.The ten cents and 18,000 books is a figure thats kicked around,as is 20,000 and $2,000

2)He has described fitting them into some sort of frozen chicken boxes that were a perfect fit for transporting comics.

 

Burrel Rowe told me he loaned Chuck $2000 to buy the collection.

 

Rick is true-spot-on here - as Chuck had no money back then

 

It wasn't a loan per se, but rather, Burl got the ECs, the Fiction House, other Good Girl Art books which were very very hot at the time, GGA-term being "pioneered" by David Alexander

 

I have always heard 22,000 books

 

Once Chuck got the books, he brought down Burl's spoils of war out of it to a Houston con, as well as half a dozen long boxes of other MH books.

 

A friend of mine Don Maris bought the Supersnipe run from Chuck there at that show. DOn later sold the run thru CBG ad in the mid to late 1990s.

 

After that Houston con, Chuck flew out to a Super Sunday one day show Terry Stroud & Dave Alexander used to put on in the Hollywood area - i was there at that show - another friend of mine purchased the Thunda #1, More Fun 101 and a few others from Chuck at the Super Sunday - it was like a pirahana feeding frenzy on the side walk waiting outside to load in

 

Bob,

I saw all the E.C.s, Fiction House, and Mr. Mind Serial Capt Marvel books, as well as others (there must have been 800 - 1000 books) at least a month before that Houston Con. It is funny the things you remember - International Comics #1 was the first book from the collection that I laid eyes on. There were six or seven stacks a foot and a half tall, laid out on the floor of Burrel's office. He had already bagged the Planet and Jungle runs, and they were on his desk in binders. UNBELIEVABLE! I remember Chuck bringing more stuff for Burrel to the show, as well as having a sampling of stuff for sale. He would have one or two books from various runs (I specifically remember Marvel Mystery 23, and wondered why there weren' t more Timelys. I didn't buy it. ). Burrel must have had something worked out previous to the show circuit sales. He led me to believe he had actually gone to Denver and picked up the first batch.

 

Later on, Burrel had most of the Fox Mystery Men, Wonderworlds, Science 3, Whiz 2-10, Detective 18,22,33,39,40 (and others, but these I specifically remember), Special Edition 1, Capt. Marvel Jr. 1 but I am not sure if these were in the original batch.

[Robert Beerbohm]

Hey Bob!

 

Before Chuck found the Church books, was he known in the collecting world? In his Tales from the Database stories he mentions he had a little store in Colorado before he found the books. I'm sure he wasn't known across the country, but did you ever see him at shows out West before the Church books?

 

Or, did he just explode on the scene with his fantastic find?

 

I do not remember Chuck at all prior to the Church collection surfacing. My understanding is his mother used to drive him to some of the shows in the midwest - they were dealing out of some sort of flea market scenario, if i remember correctly

 

In the early 1980s, in the years leading up to the Feb 1986 warehouse flooding which destroyed the comics company i was CEO of then, I used to take 90 feet of dealer table space at San Diego

 

I was one of the pioneers in speculating on recent comic books, beginning my lot purchases by 1968 such as 100 copies each of the Marvel split titles such as CA 100 IM 1 DrS 169 NF 1 etc

 

By the time the Byrne Xmens were coming out, i was buying 10,000 of an issue. I would bring 300-600 of each and stack em up on one table, no bags & boards, just a foot or so of each Xmen in numerical order with a posted price list

 

Chuck used to take one table directly across from me at San Diego

 

One year Gary C Moondog took a table at the end of my booth space when he brought Windy City copies to the SD show

 

Anyway, at the end of each San Diego, Chuck would come over to my table, pick out 50 of each Xmen, we would talley it up at my retail

 

I would then go over to his one table and I would pick out commiserate amount of Mile Highs at his prices

 

Once upon a time i had over 400 Mile Highs

 

I talked a lot with Chuck back then how this collection broke down on who what when where etc

 

Rick's story jibes more so with me how it happened than Chuck's later database version first serialized in CBG some time ago - i remember reading at his columns then and remarking some of the story did not make sense

[dekeuk]

 

I always find it hard to believe Chuck sold the Action 1, TEC 27, and Marvel #1. I guess he really needed money fast, but you figure he would have kept at least one of these for himself as a souvenier of his spectacular find. But he didn't, he sold them all. What a mistake.