Totally Shameless (but true) Suck-up Post

[mrwoogieman]

Yes, ebay brought me back to the hobby too, not CGC. To me, ebay has had the bigger impact on the hobby than CGC, b/c ebay's influence extends to the entire hobby, while CGC is more a niche within the hobby (ultra high grade books and hidden restoration protection). Both are good for the hobby IMO, but ebay was a revolutionary new marketplace for the hobby while CGC is just a facilitator for a subset of collectors.

[fantastic_four]

I got back into collecting in September 2000, a few months after the X-Men movie. If it wasn't for E-Bay, I probably would be a mid-grade collector. The first month I started collecting again, I was buying mostly Fine to Very Fine comics from stores. However, once I saw how many comics there were on E-Bay and that I could probably complete a mid-grade Marvel Silver/Bronze set in a matter of months or a year, I decided to start going after 8.5 or better books to make the task more challenging. It wasn't until a month or two later that it occurred to me that buying CGC might be the only way to not get ripped off by undisclosed restoration and overgrading.

 

EBay has changed the hobby more, especially when you consider that while 99% of collectors don't buy CGC books, a much greater percentage of them do at least occasionally buy books from ebay. CGC has altered the hobby for high-grade collectors, but E-Bay has altered it for ALL collectors...high-grade guys are only a tiny subset of the collecting community. I still wonder how many comic stores and conventions E-Bay will have killed off a decade from now...hard to say. Not going to conventions as much is a shift in the hobby and the way people collect, not just marketplace prices.

 

If it wasn't for the Internet and E-Bay, it's quite likely that CGC wouldn't be here and would instead be the type of company that people were still pining for, much like Gerber did back around 1990 in those articles he wrote at the beginning of his photo-journals.

[OldGuy]

If I collect Batman (and I don't), that's my HOBBY. Where I buy them and how much I pay is the MARKET. eBay broadened the market, it did not change the hobby.

 

Says you. Before EBay, I couldn't even find NM back issues to buy. It changed my view of the hobby 100%.

 

And then CGC came along and totaly f.ucked it up for everyone ( don't forget that part Joe).

[HooDeeDoo]

You've got Edgar Church at number two on your list...

What did the Edgar Church collection do for this Batman collector?

 

The Church collection set the standard for grading comics. Unless you know what a New Mint book looks like you're not going to be able grade a VG correctly. Prior to the Church collection, grading was all over the map. Additionally, by setting a grading standard, the MARKET was then impacted. Everything that we knew about grading and page quality and cover gloss was thrown out the window. To this day, the Church collection is standard that all new collections are judged against.

 

Furthermore, regarding CGC and eBay, eBay was an expansion of an already existing market. Was it a major expansion? Absolutely. However, it didn't introduce anything NEW that actually CHANGED the hobby. This is a critical point. So what if more people came into the hobby or you're able to more easily get back issues? It's the same hobby - just more people. CGC introduced something NEW that had never been there before and forever changed the way (most) people look at their collections. Furthermore, CGC's effect on the hobby drastically impacted the MARKET.

 

The market exists because of the hobby and not the other way around. CGC introduced something the hobby had never seen before and then the market responded. eBay and the internet are merely conduits FOR the hobby

[PovertyRow]

eBay and the internet are merely conduits FOR the hobby

 

Your mastery of semantics over substance has bested me. I surrender. You are right.

[ArAich]

Hootie...I see your points and I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with them simultaneously....

 

I would like to ad an important event that happened in the hobby that seems to be overlooked...

Wouldn't the advent of "The Buyers Guide for Comicbook Fandom"..(gawd I hope I got that right) ..a newspaper style publication by Alan Light be considered a very pivotal event...rivalling that of Ebay and the Internet???...

[joe_collector]

The Church collection set the standard for grading comics. Unless you know what a New Mint book looks like you're not going to be able grade a VG correctly. Prior to the Church collection, grading was all over the map. Additionally, by setting a grading standard, the MARKET was then impacted.

 

You're kidding right? At the time the Church Collection was found, there were plenty of Silver and Bronze comics in off-the-shelf condition, and it had no impact on overall comic grading.

 

I think you're referring to how it improved Golden Age Grading, which is only a subset of the hobby.

[HooDeeDoo]

The Church collection set the standard for grading comics. Unless you know what a New Mint book looks like you're not going to be able grade a VG correctly. Prior to the Church collection, grading was all over the map. Additionally, by setting a grading standard, the MARKET was then impacted.

 

You're kidding right? At the time the Church Collection was found, there were plenty of Silver and Bronze comics in off-the-shelf condition, and it had no impact on overall comic grading.

 

I think you're referring to how it improved Golden Age Grading, which is only a subset of the hobby.

 

At the risk of sounding condescending - you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

[supapimp]

[joe_collector]

At the risk of sounding condescending - you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

Then please explain how the Church Collection improved grading on Bronze and Modern comics? Most hadn't even been printed yet.

 

In order to have an idea of what NM means is relative to the era. The Church books were integral to the Golden Age collector, as most had not ever seen a NM copy of said books ever before. It definitely tightened up grading at the Golden Age level, and set a new height for NM and NM+ comics for the era.

 

On the other hand, a just-printed Bronze Age comic was easily discernable, since you could take 100 copies out of the distributor box and make a pretty fair comparison. Same with most Silver, especially as the warehouse finds and other pedigrees started up.

 

I really do understand what you're getting at, and I do agree on some levels, especially that it improved and changed grading standards of older books. On the other hand, I really don't think that if the Church books had never been found, I'd be buying VG copies of Origin #1 sold as NM.

 

It's as Bob Overstreet likes to say, "understanding what comprises a NM comic requires seeing the best examples of that book", and in this case, having the high-grade Church books as reference was a boon for that era's collectors. Without those, the GA market may still be zany, but there are no shortage of Silver, Bronze and Modern NM comics to base a solid grading opinion on.

[HooDeeDoo]

At the risk of sounding condescending - you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

 

Then please explain how the Church Collection improved grading on Bronze and Modern comics? Most hadn't even been printed yet.

 

In order to have an idea of what NM means is relative to the era. The Church books were integral to the Golden Age collector, as most had not ever seen a NM copy of said books ever before. It definitely tightened up grading at the Golden Age level, and set a new height for NM and NM+ comics for the era.

 

On the other hand, a just-printed Bronze Age comic was easily discernable, since you could take 100 copies out of the distributor box and make a pretty fair comparison. Same with most Silver, especially as the warehouse finds and other pedigrees started up.

 

I really do understand what you're getting at, and I do agree on some levels, especially that it improved and changed grading standards of older books. On the other hand, I really don't think that if the Church books had never been found, I'd be buying VG copies of Origin #1 sold as NM.

 

It's as Bob Overstreet likes to say, "understanding what comprises a NM comic requires seeing the best examples of that book", and in this case, having the high-grade Church books as reference was a boon for that era's collectors. Without those, the GA market may still be zany, but there are no shortage of Silver, Bronze and Modern NM comics to base a solid grading opinion on.

 

 

This is making my hair hurt - and I DON'T HAVE ANY.

 

Would someone who has more energy than I explain this to Joe.

 

That's assuming there's someone out there who actually gives a rat's a**.

 

oh, nevermind. It's pointless.

[joe_collector]

You seem to think I don't know what you're talking about, and I do.

 

You believe that comic grading was in a shambles and the appearance of the Church Books brought order to the galaxy.

 

I agree, but only to a point, based on the era of the books in question.

 

I just wondered if you really thought that if the Church Books had never been discovered, we'd still be in the same grading scenario as the late-70's?

 

Heck, even Chuckles hasn't gone so far as to say his discovery of the Church Collection is responsible for 100% of the improvements in comic grading since 1977.

 

Someone alert him to the ommision, as it's definitely enough for a new article. Maybe he can even get royalties from CGC?

[mlovest]

Ironically, the guy who found the Church collection couldn't grade his way out of a paper bag. OK, that may be a bit harsh, but his graders can't grade their way out of a paper sack...

 

Mike

[PovertyRow]

Personally, I think EBay has had a much greater impact on comic collecting than CGC.

 

I agree 100%. The real impact CGC has had is on the high end market, which comprises a very small percent of the "hobby". When one focusses a great deal on a small area, that area suddenly starts becoming more of "the world" to them. This sometimes happens when people think of CGC. Because they are very CGC-centric the real impact of CGC on the hobby is rather exagerrated.

 

Ebay has to be the single largest impact no the comic market in the last decade.

 

Some people are not paying attention.

 

My observation has NOTHING to do with the MARKET. I'm speaking of the HOBBY. The two things are not the same.

 

If I collect Batman (and I don't), that's my HOBBY. Where I buy them and how much I pay is the MARKET. eBay broadened the market, it did not change the hobby.

 

 

OK - I said "Your mastery of semantics over substance has bested me. I surrender. You are right." Now anyone that knows me knows that I was lying until I got home and was able to formulate my thoughts. And this is a long post so reader beware! Caveat Reader?

 

Hoo - you use Market and Hobby to suit your needs and your arguments. You have not fully defined your perception of Hobby and Market but just assume that everyone adheres to your perception of them.

 

Well I will share my own defintions of Market and Hobby. They are intertwined. Hooked up. A symbiotic relationship. You can't have a Hobby without a Market and you can't have a Market without a Hobby.

 

To take this further, the Market can become the Hobby and the Hobby can become the Market. Allow me to elucidate:

 

We have a Hobby - collecting comic books. In the pre-collector days (aka mid 60's) you had to go to places like used book stores or junk shops or whatever or, if you were lucky, hook up with friends who also collected comics, to expand your collection of anything that was older than what was currently on the rack. I assume, and I may be wrong in my assumption but I don't think I am, that there were a LOT of comics one had never seen or even heard of until you hit that special store or found that friend who had "Huh? What is THIS?"

 

In that respect I grant you that the OS guide is probably the single largest impact on the HOBBY. It brought to the hobbyists attention lots of things they never heard of before. But it was also an impact to the MARKET because it gave prices and grades. And helped people gauge what seemed to be the proper price to pay. Hence, Hobby and Marekt intertwined in a beautiful Maypole Dance.

 

However, I submit that the ebay of today is the Overstreet of yesterday. Why? Because ebay allows the HOBBYist to actually DEFINE their HOBBY. Finally, in one single venue, one can see 109,377 (as of this writing) comic book listings in Comics alone. And the vast majority have pictures. And many have historical descriptions. Now how many comic shops, mail order dealers, etc would you have to visit to see that many instantly searchable comics?

 

IS ebay a force for the MARKET? Absolutely. But is ebay a force for the HOBBY? Absolutely without question. Ebay allows folks getting into the HOBBY to peruse areas they are interested in and see things they have never seen before. It lets them gauge their collection and their collecting proclivities against what they know about comics and helps them expand their awareness. THAT is HOBBY.

 

I have only begun here but do not wish to bore more than I have so will end here.

[ArAich]

Dang pov...I love when you elucidate....makes for good thought provoking reading....

 

Well said...

[PovertyRow]

Thanks, Ara. It is appreciated.

[Darthdiesel]

Personally, I think EBay has had a much greater impact on comic collecting than CGC.

 

I agree 100%. The real impact CGC has had is on the high end market, which comprises a very small percent of the "hobby". When one focusses a great deal on a small area, that area suddenly starts becoming more of "the world" to them. This sometimes happens when people think of CGC. Because they are very CGC-centric the real impact of CGC on the hobby is rather exagerrated.

 

Ebay has to be the single largest impact no the comic market in the last decade.

 

Some people are not paying attention.

 

My observation has NOTHING to do with the MARKET. I'm speaking of the HOBBY. The two things are not the same.

 

If I collect Batman (and I don't), that's my HOBBY. Where I buy them and how much I pay is the MARKET. eBay broadened the market, it did not change the hobby.

 

 

OK - I said "Your mastery of semantics over substance has bested me. I surrender. You are right." Now anyone that knows me knows that I was lying until I got home and was able to formulate my thoughts. And this is a long post so reader beware! Caveat Reader?

 

Hoo - you use Market and Hobby to suit your needs and your arguments. You have not fully defined your perception of Hobby and Market but just assume that everyone adheres to your perception of them.

 

Well I will share my own defintions of Market and Hobby. They are intertwined. Hooked up. A symbiotic relationship. You can't have a Hobby without a Market and you can't have a Market without a Hobby.

 

To take this further, the Market can become the Hobby and the Hobby can become the Market. Allow me to elucidate:

 

We have a Hobby - collecting comic books. In the pre-collector days (aka mid 60's) you had to go to places like used book stores or junk shops or whatever or, if you were lucky, hook up with friends who also collected comics, to expand your collection of anything that was older than what was currently on the rack. I assume, and I may be wrong in my assumption but I don't think I am, that there were a LOT of comics one had never seen or even heard of until you hit that special store or found that friend who had "Huh? What is THIS?"

 

In that respect I grant you that the OS guide is probably the single largest impact on the HOBBY. It brought to the hobbyists attention lots of things they never heard of before. But it was also an impact to the MARKET because it gave prices and grades. And helped people gauge what seemed to be the proper price to pay. Hence, Hobby and Marekt intertwined in a beautiful Maypole Dance.

 

However, I submit that the ebay of today is the Overstreet of yesterday. Why? Because ebay allows the HOBBYist to actually DEFINE their HOBBY. Finally, in one single venue, one can see 109,377 (as of this writing) comic book listings in Comics alone. And the vast majority have pictures. And many have historical descriptions. Now how many comic shops, mail order dealers, etc would you have to visit to see that many instantly searchable comics?

 

IS ebay a force for the MARKET? Absolutely. But is ebay a force for the HOBBY? Absolutely without question. Ebay allows folks getting into the HOBBY to peruse areas they are interested in and see things they have never seen before. It lets them gauge their collection and their collecting proclivities against what they know about comics and helps them expand their awareness. THAT is HOBBY.

 

I have only begun here but do not wish to bore more than I have so will end here.

 

Too pithy

[PovertyRow]

Too pithy

 

I don't think brevity really factors into it!

[Bugaboo-migration]

I started to read and enjoy this thread and the humor in it until it was forced down the same frigging path as any other thread that attempts to speak positively of CGC. So, I skipped the rest of it and just decided to post.

 

Steve......you and the CGC gang are doing a great job and ARE the reason I got back into the hobby.

 

Keep up the good work.

[greggy]

I started to read and enjoy this thread and the humor in it until it was forced down the same frigging path as any other thread that attempts to speak positively of CGC. So, I skipped the rest of it and just decided to post.

 

Steve......you and the CGC gang are doing a great job and ARE the reason I got back into the hobby.

 

Keep up the good work.

Total suck!