sfcityduck

Fair enough. By the mid-70s Marvel had interracial relationships. I view the core Avengers movies are about a GA hero and a bunch of SA heroes.

I didn't give any thought to what the religion was of any superhero as I was growing up. Why would you? Aside from Spire Christian Comics none of the publishers had a religious agenda. The only characters who I can think of built on a religious orientation were pagans of some sort.

To be clear, I'm talking about GA through to about the mid-1960s. Brown v. Bd. of Education which declared segregation as unconstitutional came down in the mid-1950s, but the battles to de-segregate the nation were front and center into the mid-1960s. Around 1965 or so, a lot of victories had been won by the Civil Rights Movement, important Acts were implemented in the 1964 and 1965, and Governors were no longer standing at the school house doors trying to bar black kids from going to school. But, all major Marvel characters were created when segregation was very much a thing that could impact comic sales. Stan was courageous to start taking it on in the mid-1960s.

I agree and disagree. Little Nemo in Slumberland's jungle imps are pretty embarrassing even though the art is spectacular. Even Flip is a bit problematic because he looks like a racist caricature when he's not. When I consider a Winsor McCay piece I always first look to see if it has racist content. Political content doesn't bother me (he was pro prohibition and I'm certainly not but I'd love his anti-drinking art), but racist content is different. It makes people feel uncomfortable.. Negro Romances arguably reflects an emerging black culture that inspires pride. No stigma there. Likewise with the black sports hero comic covers. No shame in my mind in displaying those comics. Comics reflect the best and worst of society. They are history and owning them for that reason is no shame. But you are right that I would not want racist content on my wall that needed an explanation to make it seem ok. Why make my guests feel uncomfortable?

Take my words literally: Why should anyone feel nostalgia for a white segregated society portrayed in a comic (or movie)? Does it really ruin the experience for Gwen to be black? Not for me. Not sure why Gwen needs to be white just because she was portrayed as white in a time when interracial relationships were literally illegal in portions of our country. That is exactly why she was white. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby fought against this attitude and so did Star Trek when it had the first interracial kiss on major tv. As a comic and Star Trek fan, those are the moments I'm nostalgic about because they make me proud of these industries:

GCD views the Charlton issue as a continuation of the Charlton run as I guess Charlton picked up parts of Fawcett. The attribution get mentioned on these boards every time one comes up for sale. I can't say it is true. GCD is silent. Sellers are making out well.

Many things wrong here. First, the comic industry was not segregated. Being based in the North, in worldly NYC, it had prominent black (Matt Baker), asian (Bob Fuji), female (Lily Renee), Jewish (Siegel), etc. artists and writers. Second, most comic heroes were of an unidentified religion. Was Superman Jewish? He had Jewish influences. But who knew? He was from Krypton! I don't think religion was a thing for many comic characters. Hawkman being an exception. Third, but vast portions of the U.S. were segregated. If you don't know what that means I'd suggest you look it up. Racism was prevalent in comics with many racist caricatures - an easy thing to fall into in a profession where caricature is a big part of the art form. Blacks were generally characters in all Black comics or minor or supporting characters. There are some pretty good books on this topic if you're interested. That was the time. But we don't need to feel strait jacketed by that now. Plenty of room to be creative and have a black Gwen and Spiderman in an interracial relationship in today's world.

Apparently you think the run is shorter than it really is. This copy sold for around $7,000. Hard to find a copy. Baker art? I hear it said that it is a self-portrait. Verified? I don't think so. Leap of faith but decent prices paid.

All true. Make a great comic book. But irrelevant to whether there is something wrong with portraying a historically white character, like Gwen, as black. Or a historically black character like Storm as white. I'd be ok with either because their ethnicity is not material to their story.

Yeah? I think not. Comics were generally segregated. Baker did get to draw Negro Romances. (And S&S did create a Jewish superhero book.) But most white publishers were afraid to offend readers in the South. EC's "Judgment Day" is one of the few stories to buck that trend. Not sure why folks want to feel nostalgia for a segregated society. It is certainly not a reason to perpetuate a racist past.

There is some irony in the notion of Wakanda as society of blacks who segregated themselves. But, the key is that they "self segregated." There is no story about Wakanda mistreating whites. It is a more of a "hidden kingdom" story like Lothlorien. I believe Wakanda was inspired by Liberia - which was founded by freed black slaves transported from America by folks in the 1820s who believed blacks would face a better chance for freedom and prosperity in Africa than in the U.S. A very sad comment on the U.S. that Americans had that attitude about their own country. Of course, they were probably right at that point in time. Liberia is the oldest Republic in Africa, the national language is English, it was never colonized, and its capital is named Monrovia after U.S. President Monroe. The first Liberian President was from Virginia. Things started to go South for Liberia a few decades back. But, in the 1960s, it was probably a good inspiration for Wakanda.

If the creators are ok with the reinvention, why should you care? Moreover, a lot of Marvel characters were created white because they are a product of the era of segregation. Why stay "true" to that?

No. Your argument is falling very flat. Therealsilvermane says exactly what needs to be said about that. There are very very few Marvel characters that are truly defined by their ethnicity. But Black Panther is one of those few. He's a product of his times and was very intentionally made a black man. Maybe Black Goliath also is one of those characters? I don't know. Most of the Marvel characters are only white because when they were created when segregation was still in full effect. If they'd been created in the present day, they might be anything because their ethnicity is immaterial to their characters real essence. It is hard to come up with Marvel characters other than Black Panther who are defined by their ethnicity. I don't think even Storm is based on the way she was portrayed in X-Men. Her race was never really an issue. Could she be white and still be Storm the X-Man? I think so. I'm ok with black Nick Fury. Heck, Nick Fury was crusading for civil rights in the 1960s so I'm sure Stan and Jack were or would be too. Does that really bother you?

I saw it as it came out. It was not as entertaining as Wonder Woman or Six Million Dollar Man IMHO. But I acknowledge people liked it as it lasted a few years.

Yep.

In that example, there is no point. But that is hardly analogous to casting a black woman, Zendaya, as Gwen despite that Gwen is white in the comics. The reason for casting Zendaya might include her talent, her beauty, her chemistry with her co-star, and even to make a point about the difference between our society today and our society way back when Gwen was cast as white in the comics and segregation was still a thing. Do you really think any of those reasons are illegit as a reason to cast Gwen as black?

Comedy relief is probably the only use for Hulk.

Voice over attack on Eternals as a "diverse flop" while running film of Nanjiani, making fun of "Egyptian superhero," etc. Watch it again. Broader point is that racism, sexism, and religious hatred are all forms of bigotry. I'm with Stan Lee on bigotry.

Has there even been a good Hulk? If you say "Bill Bixby" I ROFLMAO! Worst character ever. He literally has no goals and nothing to say.

Watch video at 12:39 mark on.

More accurately, Marvel has been a voice for diversity for a long, long time. It is the most "woke" (in the correct meaning of that term) comic company. Here's a Stan's Soapbox from 1968 after the killing of MLK and Robert Kennedy: Marvel readers, you can be sure, noticed Stan Lee’s support of civil rights. One reader wrote Stan in 1969 to complain about Marvel’s support for civil rights, ending his letter by stating “I’m not a racist, just a concerned Marvelite who doesn’t want his favorite comic company to be ruined by something that doesn’t concern you as comic publishers.” Stan’s published response in the letters page of the comic?: “But, such matters as racism and inequality do concern us, Tim — not just as comic mag artists and writers and publishers, but as human beings. Certainly it’s never been our intention to portray all, or even most, white Americans as hard-core bigots or screaming racists. Maybe it’s just that we think that many people in the land of the free have too long turned their backs or averted their eyes to the more unpleasant things that are going on every day. Maybe we felt we could do something — even within the relatively humble format of what used to be called a ‘comic-book’ – to change things just a bit for the better. If we failed, let’s just say that we’d at least like to have it said of us that — we tried.” Shortly before his death, Stan posted a video in which he stated: ."Marvel has always been and always will be a reflection of the world right outside our window. That world may change and evolve, but the one thing that will never change is the way we tell our stories of heroism. Those stories have room for everyone, regardless of their race, gender or color of their skin. The only things we don’t have room for are hatred, intolerance and bigotry.” That guy in the video would not have agreed with Stan Lee in 1968 or even today. Diverse casting in a Spiderman movie (black Gwen, black Nick Fury, black Ned, SpiderGwen, etc.) doesn't ruin the movie. It's bad storytelling that ruins a movie. The video guy's focus on the diverse casting (or not hot enough females) and not the storytelling tells me more than I want to know about that guy. His analysis is embarrassingly bad.

Or its very very big. You are acting like 7,000 people is a big deal. While it is to them, its only about 4% of Disney's workforce. This is not an Elon Musk level failure where Twitter has laid off over 50% of its workforce or even where Tesla laid off 10% froze hiring and is doing more layoffs soon. As for the stock, what entertainment company is where it was 2 years ago? Or tech company? Elon Musk used to be worth $340B. Now he fluctuates around half that due to the decreased stock prices of his companies.

Disney stock is up over 7% on the year to date. DIS is a consensus "buy" among analysts. Why? Disney revenue for the quarter ending December 31, 2022 was $23.512B, a 7.76% increase year-over-year. Disney revenue for the twelve months ending December 31, 2022 was $84.415B, a 15.66% increase year-over-year. Disney annual revenue for 2022 was $82.722B, a 22.7% increase from 2021. It's a tough environment for cinema and theme parks, and they seem to be bouncing back ok.

The recent shake-up was apparently because the executive was abusive.

Yep. The problem is not recasting. Its the concept of an event driven MCU. They need to be more creative in their story direction instead of papering over the cracks by merely changing characters. For me, Spiderman is the success story. Three different live action takes on the same material with a focus on the human story, and the third take includes a retcon at the end. Plus a different animated feature film with yet a different take on the material which was super enjoyable. Spiderman as a concept is stronger for those movies - and it did not matter at all that we had a black Gwen, black Ned, black Nick Fury, Latino Spiderman, SpiderGwen, etc. during the course of those movies. Folks who complain about diversity are focused on the wrong factor. What matters is storytelling. Good storytelling is much better than badly implemented nostalgia and fan service. The heading of this thread is an embarrassment and its implication is wrong. The MCU has tied itself to a formula that has run its course for now. They should have continued on with more standalone type movies for a while. But they aren't going to change the formula because they are still making gobs of money: * Antman & The Wasp is making more than Antman did. * Wakanda Forever made more money than every Thor movie. .* Spiderman: No Way Home is the no. 3 highest grossing Marvel movie. * Multiverse of Madness made almost a $1B. * Thor Love and Thunder made over $750M. They aren't going in the wrong direction from a monetary perspective, especially given the present state of cinema. But, it is my belief that they are going to hit a wall that just changing characters won't solve. They aren't learning from the mistakes made in the comics. They are repeating them.