Big Brother

On 1/8/2023 at 3:07 AM, Flex Mentallo said:

PSArtbooks are worth the price of admission. I recall the launch at a London Convention about ten years ago. Very exciting! Repro quality on all their books varies - not the same attention to restoration as bigger publishers, but hey, if the alternative is to crack the CGC shells, I'm not going to be picky!

I have every issue of Planet Comics via PSArtbooks, as well as a half-dozen or so of the original issues. I got the reprints when I worked for Half Price Books and I got them for about $8 apiece – that's right, with my employee discount, about $8 each. I bought every single one.

On 1/8/2023 at 2:08 AM, Big Brother said:

The difference is, the artwork on Amazing Fantasy #15 is typically great Ditko. The artwork on Incredible Hulk #181 is Trimpe / Abel spoon. If you want it, you can have it. I could've bought a copy for peanuts years ago, but I didn't want it then and I still don't. I never bought comics because I thought they would make me money. I bought them because I liked them.

In case you don't know, spoon = junk, since apparently another word is verboten.

On 1/7/2023 at 8:49 PM, jcjames said:

Most interesting since we can now answer this question posted in 2017!

So comparing GPA averages from 2017 through 2022 - AF15 vs IH181, from a purely price/value/ROI point of view: 

AF15 vs IH181 - GRADE-FOR-GRADE, % ROI: 

2017 AF15 2.0 avg = $10,830 ...... 2022 AF15 2.0 avg = $31,467  =  191% ROI 

2017 IH181 2.0 avg = $742 ...... 2022 IH181 2.0 avg = $2,320 =  313% ROI

 

2017 AF15 4.0 avg = $25,389 ...... 2022 AF15 4.0 avg = $46,714  =  84% ROI 

2017 IH181 4.0 avg = $911...... 2022 IH181 4.0 avg = $3,467 =  281% ROI

 

2017 AF15 6.0 avg = $47,796 ...... 2022 AF15 6.0 avg = $79,094  =  65% ROI 

2017 IH181 6.0 avg = $1,360 ...... 2022 IH181 6.0 avg = $4,902 =  260% ROI

 

2017 AF15 7.0 avg = $97,900 ...... 2022 AF15 7.0 avg = $220,500  =  125% ROI 

2017 IH181 7.0 avg = $1,549 ...... 2022 IH181 7.0 avg = $5,947 =  384% ROI

 

AF15 vs IH181 - DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR, ROI (Assume ~$5,000 to spend in 2017):

2017 AF15 0.5 avg = $5,000   ...... 2022 AF15 0.5 avg = $13,400  =  168% ROI 

2017 IH181 9.4 avg = $5,125 ...... 2022 IH181 9.4 avg = $17,962 =  250% ROI

 

AF15 vs IH181 - DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR, ROI (Assume ~$58,000 to spend in 2017):

2017 AF15 6.5 avg = $58,000   ...... 2022 AF15 6.5 avg = $175,000  =  202% ROI 

2017 IH181 9.8 avg = $18,570 (buy 3) ...... 2022 IH181 9.8 avg = $99,429 =  435% ROI

 

 

Looks like in grade-for-grade or dollar-for-dollar, the better sub-$100K "investment" over the past five years has consistently been IH181. 

So... what will happen in the NEXT five years???   

 

 

 

ETA: typos

The difference is, the artwork on Amazing Fantasy #15 is typically great Ditko. The artwork on Incredible Hulk #181 is Trimpe / Abel spoon. If you want it, you can have it. I could've bought a copy for peanuts years ago, but I didn't want it then and I still don't. I never bought comics because I thought they would make me money. I bought them because I liked them.

On 1/5/2023 at 6:58 AM, sledgehammer said:

Say what????

I went to the first Chicago comicon in 1976.

It was the first time I saw an AF 15 in person. The guy wanted $700 for it. In today's dollars, that would have been about $3,500, for a 14 year old comic.

The Overstreet I have, from 1979, AF 15 is $600 in fine, and $900 in mint.

Well, as I said earlier, I based my list on one that was posted by Webhead, and I also said that I have the early Overstreets but I'm too lazy to look up the info. That's my excuse...

Who cares about embossed covers from the 1990s now? Or varient covers?

On 1/3/2023 at 8:50 PM, Aman619 said:

because comics were in frefall in late 90s/  and because Overstreet is an imperfect pricing tool.  He falls behind the market.  then catches up, often too high, The big jumps are catchy years after years of copies selling for 2-4x Guide.  Basically dont follow the Overstreet prices over 50 years for any TEAL market data.  All the info you will get is what the Guide price was set at over time.

 

I agree that Overstreet usually lags behind the market but if comics were in free-fall in the late 1990s, why did AF15 go from $2,800 in 1994 to $22,000 in 1999? How do you explain that?

The price of Amazing Fantasy #15 doubled from 1978 to 1979, and from 1979 to 1980. It doubled again from 1983 to 1984, and once more from 1994 to 1995. Then from 1997 to 1998, it nearly triples in value. It doubles again from 2015 to 2016. in most other years, it's a steady rise with occasional pauses or rare setbacks. Does anybody have any explanations for the rapid price rises in the years noted here? Of course, Spidey is a popular character but why would AF15 go from $7,000 in 1997 to $20,000 in 1998, for example? Especially after remaining at $7,000 for two years.

P.S. I should acknowledge that my list was based on the one originally posted by Webhead.

Well, here's something new: an updated list of the valuation of Amazing Fantasy #15. I'd like to point out that the ONLY reason that someone would pay more than a half-million dollars for a comic book is if he thinks he can sell it for more later. And based on the list below, he wouldn't be wrong. All I can say about that is: tulips in Amsterdam.

Prices via Overstreet 9.2 

Amazing Fantasy #15

1970: $16

1971: $18

1972-1977: no data (I have Overstreets for those years, but I'm too lazy to look up the prices)

1978: $40

1979: $80

1980: $160

1981: $225

1982: $360

1983: $450

1984: $900

1985: $1,000

1986: $1,000

1987: $1,200

1988: $1,100

1989: $1,100

1990: $1,100

1991: $1,200

1992: $1,500

1993: $1,800

1994: $2,800

1995: $6,100

1996: $7,000

1997: $7,000

1998: $20,000

1999: $22,000

2000: $26,000

2001: $27,000

2002: $27,000

2003: $27,000

2004: $25,000

2005: $35,000

2006: $42,000

2007: $48,000

2008: $42,500

2009: $42,500

2010: $33,500

2011: $44,000

2012: $50,000

2013: $65,000

2014: $100,000

2015: $125,000

2016: $260,000

2017: $350,000

2018: $375,000

2019: $405,000

2020: $425,000

2021: $450,000

2022: $550,000

I bought early issues of Amazing Spider-Man because I love Steve Ditko's artwork, and I like Stan Lee's storylines. I didn't buy them as an investment. I don't mind that they're worth a lot of money now, but that's not why I got them. I think that Spidey #31-33 are some of the best super-hero comics of all time.

On 5/27/2022 at 3:00 PM, Paul © ® ™ 💙 ⚽️ said:

Just in. Low grade for sure, but I wanted a copy for now, as this book is getting silly price-wise.

Not too bad for the grade, and it's by Joe Maneely, total legend in comic book land. 

 

Somebody please explain something to me: This comic is graded 1.0, almost at the bottom of the ladder. Why would you keep it in the slab? How much damage could you possibly do to it by READING it?? What is the point of keeping a book in lousy condition in a slab? It's already trashed! Seriously, why?

On 11/27/2022 at 6:20 PM, Qalyar said:

Is it possible? Yes. Several of the coin certification companies are aware of counterfeits of their slabs. However, there's been no evidence so far of any even remotely credible counterfeit CGC slabs, so the burden of proof is really on those making doomer arguments about the likelihood of that occurring.

You hope! There's no evidence that it's happened, so therefore it could never happen, right?

On 11/30/2022 at 7:18 AM, KCOComics said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't disagree with any of this. 

In fact, I'm astonished by the weight the industry has put on 3rd party grading and prefer my comics in bags and boards. The difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 can be miniscule, yet the value swings so dramatically based on a person's opinion. 

With that said, I own dozens of graded books. I even collect high grade runs where every book is graded. 

There are really two factors at play. Collecting SA and BA books has become as much about investing as collecting. When key books are 4, 5 and 6 figures, that third party grade allows the market value to be more easily determined.  I never considered (and still don't) my collection an "investment". But the value of certain books has become impossible to ignore. 

Grading also creates a certain level of liquidity for those that have allot of money tied into comics. I don't think anyone is buying AF15 in any grade as a reader copy anymore, so having it slabbed make sense for most people, in the event you need to sell it. 

I do agree though. I enjoy flipping through my comics. I like the way they look in Myler and if they are handled properly, they are safe and secure. 

 

 

Thanks for your comments. Comic collecting, or as you put it, "the industry," has become all about money. I deplore this, but I can't prevent it. I collect comics because I enjoy them, not because I'm investing in them to make money. And yes, it's ridiculous to think that a tiny corner crease could devalue something by $5,000.00 or more. Especially if the grade is just some self-styled expert's opinion.

By the way, I once bought a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 for $6.00. That's six dollars, NOT six hundred dollars. It was in terrible condition, with no back cover, but even then that was cheap! Those were the days...

On 11/30/2022 at 8:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Some of the reasons I buy graded comics are because I can be reasonably sure the book is complete, the grade is in the correct range and the book has been checked for restoration.

However, I also buy ungraded books because I enjoy rolling the dice occasionally. Either way, it's still fun...and isn't that what it's all about?  

You can be reasonably sure that a book is complete if you EXAMINE it. You can count the pages, you can see if the stories seem to be all there, etc. And if you are knowledgeable enough to be able to determine if the grade is "in the correct range," then why do you need someone to tell you what the grade is (and for a price)? These days online, you can view scans of most books for sale and, even though that's not as good as seeing the item in person, it's a lot better than just having someone else's grading to go on. But yeah, comic collecting should be fun!

On 11/30/2022 at 7:46 AM, Lonely Metal said:

How good are you at detecting restoration? I'll bet "not good".

What does that have to do with anything? I haven't claimed to be an expert at detecting restoration.

On 11/29/2022 at 11:06 AM, revat said:

I think some people just like collecting things.  And some people who collect those things like those things in better and/or original condition.  And some people prefer to have neutral third-party experts grade those things, so they can get a better picture of the true condition.  And some of those people like to protect those collectibles, as use and exposure to the elements may degrade the condition of those collectibles.  And the people who collect those things would rather not degrade the condition of those collectibles they like.  And some of the people above collect comic books, because they like them for whatever reason.

Not everyone feels that way, but hopefully you can understand why SOME PEOPLE (certainly not all) feel that way.

I've been a comic collector for more than 50 years. I like things in nice condition, although I'm willing to settle for less on some books. You say, "And some people prefer to have neutral third-party experts grade those things..." But who appointed these "neutral third-party experts"? Aren't they pretty much self-appointed? Grading is an art, not a science, but anyone can learn it. Why not learn how to grade, instead of paying someone to tell you their opinion of the condition of your item? My comic books are in bags, and in boxes. They're reasonably well-protected. And I've got news for you: comic books, like people, will not last forever no matter what you do. My question still is: why would you pay a premium for a comic book that you can't read?

On 11/27/2022 at 6:20 PM, Qalyar said:

Is it possible? Yes. Several of the coin certification companies are aware of counterfeits of their slabs. However, there's been no evidence so far of any even remotely credible counterfeit CGC slabs, so the burden of proof is really on those making doomer arguments about the likelihood of that occurring.

Yes, and since there's no evidence for counterfeits, they must not exist, right? I don't claim that fakes EXIST. I'm just saying that they COULD, and how would you even know – because you can't examine the books! But I don't understand why you would want a comic book that you can't read in the first place.

As I wrote earlier, it doesn't have to be a million dollar book. It could be any comic worth thousands of dollars. If people can counterfeit American money, don't you think someone could counterfeit a CGC case and label? But hey, if you want to buy comic books that you can't read, go right ahead.

Well, part of my point is that when things are worth thousands of dollars, they become worth counterfeiting. If you invested 5 thousand dollars in creating a fake that you turn around for 20 thousand, that's a pretty good return. But my main point is YOU CAN'T EXAMINE THE BOOK! It's sealed inside the slab.

Again, how would anyone know it was fake? The whole point of creating a fake is to make people THINK it is real. If the book is sealed inside a CGC case, how can you examine it? Conceivably, you could take a genuine cover and wrap it around the guts of some worthless comic. How would you know? And forget about a million dollar comic book – it would be worthwhile to fake any book valued at thousands of dollars. If you think it would be impossible to create a convincing counterfeit, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd be willing to part with...

I've collected comic books for more than 50 years. I love 'em! My favorites are ECs and The Spirit, but I like all kinds of comics – everything from The Amazing Spider-Man to Little Archie. I have never bought a slabbed comic book, and I never will. What good is a comic that you can't read? Slabbing makes sense for things such as coins, stamps, and gum cards, because they have only two sides! But not comic books!

I did finally figure out why slabbed comic books command a premium price: it's because most people don't know how to grade! They want some "authority" to TELL them what the grade of their item is. But exactly who appointed these "experts" as the ultimate arbiters? How did they attain their exalted position? Do you know? Grading is an art, not a science, and reasonable people can disagree – although they shouldn't differ by more than a half-grade or so, most of the time. But when the difference between a Very Fine grade and Near Mint can be thousands of dollars, it becomes ridiculous. Oh, that little corner bump makes it worth $5,000.00 less? That's insane!!

A million dollar item is "not worth the investment in tooling, manufacturing, and risk"? Really? OK, you go right on thinking that. When there's big money to be made, some people will do whatever it takes...

When some comic books are "worth" more than a million dollars, don't you think that would create a powerful incentive to manufacture fakes? You're fooling yourself if you think it can't be done. And how would anyone know the difference? You can't examine the comic book! All you can see are the front and back covers, and the sides of the interior pages.