Leiataua Dr. Jon

On 1/8/2024 at 2:46 PM, Scottish Punk said:

I feel you Dr.  I was shocked when i saw those numbers.  CGC is going backwards in the sports card market.  SGC is eating their lunch for a clear number two to PSA.  CGC has really bungled everything from the get go in regards to rolling out the sports cards side.  Created its own entity, really ugly labels, yanked subgrades away, messed with vintage grading standards, changed grading scale.  Each of these moves, even it was for the better, eroded goodwill and confidence in the brand.  For the life of me, I don't know why they didn't just keep the same blue labels as every other vertical in their portfolio.  That is their brand identity.  Keep subgrades as well.  If I had a bunch of Marvel graded cards, I would want them to match the comic slabs.

I agree with you that they need to get a big marketing push for sports cards if they are indeed serious about staying around in the market.  By merging the sports card brand into CGC, it seems to be an after thought now.  If you look at instagram posts, it is overwhelmingly posts with Pokemon.  Social media, youtube has a ton of SGC reveals and people talking them up.  Almost nothing with CGC (outside of pokemon).

I don't know an easy fix.  More specials and promotions is a great start.  SGC does well with their bowman/topps release ones.  Talking up the slab is great.  Maybe they have some automated processes that curtail fraud/trimming which would be a competitive advantage?  As far as grading, you are correct modern gem rate numbers are not good.  I disagree with the removal of 9.5.  I don't want to see a billion weak 10's like PSA slabs that look just like 9's since they are coin flip.  They should align closely to SGC I would think.  The other problem I have with their grading is that the vintage grading is closing to BVG (weak soft) than PSA/SGC.  Small sample size, but just about every card from the 70's on back that a cracked out in either direction SGC/CGC, the CGC gets a full grade bump.  That does not inspire confidence.  Grading softly on vintage and harshly on modern, the worst of both worlds. lol. 

I have been close to switching to CGC from SGC.  Keep waiting for the market to get better.  Events - no subs, label change, combine with CGC, gemrate data.  Seems like a big event keeps happening and the market needs to reset.

 

 

  

Scottish Punk: I am nodding my head to everything that you've said.  I refuse, however, to switch to SGC.  Their slab is simply sub-standard in terms of quality and security.  The black tie "look" is nice for some cards, however, the slab itself is not what I am looking for.  The resale value of SGC slabbed cards is weak, unless you're looking at some specific vintage cards.  PSA is a behemoth and basically does whatever they want to do.  Their use of pop control on key cards throughout sets, especially for cards in the 80's and 90's, is a scam.  See here for evidence: 

I would love for CGC to significantly up their game as it relates to their sports cards grading.  I've just not seen it happen and we're more than two years into this venture of grading sports cards with CGC.  The simple fact that someone from CGC can't even respond to what people have placed in this thread, outside of the prior milk toast response above, is evidence that CGC is not truly interested in feedback from their sports cards collector base.  I wish the moderator of this forum would send this thread to Andy Broome, who I do respect and get him in on the thread and then having him influence CGC cards to take some aggressive marketing action in relation to their sports cards grading.  I suspect that if CGC offered grading for $7 per slab and then marketed that price point throughout the year for vintage, modern, and ultra modern specials, including on new releases, they would gain a greater following.  I would time their grading "specials" to coincide with those of PSA and simply work to undercut PSA and SGC with lower grading fees. 

You're totally right about their vintage vs. modern vs. ultra modern grading.  They need to tighten up on vintage and relax a bit on modern and ultra modern.  A 30 percent gem rate, paired with the non-existent marketing and myriad changes to the slab and flip, has been and will continue to be a recipe for disaster.  I have a decent amount of vintage in CGC or CSG slabs.  They will all be cracked and submitted to PSA when they issue their next vintage grading special.  I simply have no market to work with as it relates to those vintage cards in CGC or CSG slabs and I refuse to take overly rigid and harsh grading on the modern and ultra modern side of things.  

CGC has one thing going for them: the industry standard quality of their slab.  That, along with grading specials that set a price point that significantly undercuts PSA's ridiculous prices (still imo) as well as SGC's low quality slab is the route I would strongly recommend CGC move in to keep their sports cards grading alive.  Otherwise, like I said earlier, their sports cards slabs will become entirely irrelevant in under 12 months time and Andy Broome will be out of a job.

I appreciate each and every comment/post on this thread.  What I find so frustrating about CGC is the lack of marketing their sports cards slabs.  They are the BEST slabs, bar none, in the industry and hobby.  For the life of me, I don't know why they don't do more to promote all of the positive things that you all have said on this thread.  They need to stop being so hard on modern cards with their grading and get RID of 9.5's.  We need more CGC slabs in the market right now.  That will take hard work, intentionality, and creative marketing to get people to grade with CGC sports cards.  Honestly, I think they care more about grading other things like TCG, Comics, coins, etc. than they do for sports cards.  It's time for CGC to decide: are they going to really continue to engage in grading sports cards, or not.  I agree that they are great for collectors, but if you EVER plan to sell them at any point in your hobby journey, be you a collector, flipper, and/or an investor, you will get pennies on the dollar for their slabs because there isn't enough supply or demand in the market for their graded slabs to warrant a person paying a premium consistent with PSA and, to a lesser degree, BGS and SGC.  

I hope someone from CGC can respond to this thread again and tell us what they are planning to up their game.  I just cracked 13 CSG and CGC slabs in the past 2-3 days for submitting to PSA for their special for modern at $15.  It's totally worth it to do so at that price point given that CGC is only a few bucks less and I can get a far better return and liquidity by selling with PSA.  I've got another stack of CSG and CGC slabs that I plan to crack and submit to PSA in the next few days...CGC, get your mess together or I won't own a single card in one of your slabs in a year or less.  Not one.

Okay, thanks for the prompt reply.  The Gem Rate data is considered by most, if not all, within the hobby as industry-standard.  Your sports cards Gem Mint 10 rates are the lowest between the big four grading companies and almost a full 15 percent lower than PSA's.  That is KILLING you all in the market for those who desire Gem Mint 10 grades which, we all know, carry a premium in terms of resale value (not everyone is a collector).  How about you lighten up on the grades for Gem Mint 10's and start getting aligned with the big 3 in terms of Gem 10 rates?  And, 9.5's?  They are considered 9's by just about any person you ask - get rid of the 9.5 grade.  The 9.5 grade carries no more value than a CGC 9 and most people I know in the hobby would take a PSA 9 over a CGC 9.5.  It's meaningless and is one of the main reasons people do not grade with CGC.  It's either a Pristine 10, a Gem Mint 10 or a 9.  Get rid of 9.5's.

Also, I am well familiar with the new label - I like it but, that's been going on for months now.  I'd like to see you all do more promotions around grading fees that are lower for all types of hobbyists (collectors, dealers, flippers, etc.).  Most of the companies are running cool promotions like that and I do not see CGC doing ANY of that type of marketing around grading fees that are lowered via promotions that are hip and generate buzz.  Get creative and start trying new cool things!  Not everything is going to "hit" but at least you'll be doing something aka marketing to get the word out more about how great CGC is (which you are but nobody hears about it!).  CGC slabs the obviously the best in class slabs anywhere...start leveraging that by lowering the grading fees and undercut PSA.  PSA is still charging $20 for bulk which is ridiculous.  People continue to use PSA though because their slabs have the greatest liquidity and hold the greatest value (it's not because their actual slabs are better than yours!).

I'm going to be blunt: if CGC doesn't get it together and start pushing their services for sports cards grading -and hard- in 2024, there will not be any more sports cards grading at CGC, moving forward.  CGC CLEARLY has the BEST slab of all in the market.  Maybe it's time to really start marketing all of the great things about CGC graded sports cards and stop using TCG, comics, coins, and other items being graded as a crutch/excuse for why you're not moving the dial on the sports cards grading front.  

Y'all need to ramp up your marketing big time if you're going to be anywhere close to relevant in grading sports cards.  That is, unless your planning to drop the grading of sports cards and focus on TCG, comics, coins, etc. exclusively.  Don't become the next HGA...I've been behind you all since late 2021 with the sports cards grading but things need to get better and quick.  Otherwise, I don't know that I'll ever grade another card with CGC and that's just me being honest.  If you're a collector, it may be different but I both collect and do sports cards as a business and right now CGC graded sports cards need a "jump start" and soon.

I own three businesses that are successful, I have a doctorate, and know how to market.  How about I consult a little for you all and we get this sports cards grading thing turned around?

Blackstone, Fanatics, and CGC...let's go!

Greetings,

According to the December Gem Rate data, CGC graded a mere 6,000 sports cards last month.  What in the world is going on CGC with your sports cards grading?  Three quarters of my slabs are in CGC holders!  I may have to start cracking them out and getting them into a competitor's slab if things don't improve soon with your numbers of sports cards graded.  

Why not try lowering your prices?

Why not try some innovative marketing strategies?

Why not try improving the liquidity of your sports cards slabs?

Something has got to change with the CGC sports cards grading because a few more months of this and the slabs are going to be worth the same as HGA, TAG, and Arena Club...

On 7/8/2023 at 3:17 PM, northkorea said:

I still say that CSG should consider the following:

Any black 10 or green 9.5+ should be eligible for a one-time $5 reconsideration fee. If the card would upgrade to a Pristine 3.0, then the submitter would be charged an additional $5 (or $7) to have the card placed in a Pristine 3.0 holder. If the card fails to upgrade, the submitter could still opt to pay the reholder fee.

This seems an equitable solution, as some 10s clearly aren’t pristine.

That sounds like a great idea!  Ryan: is that something CSG would consider?

On 7/6/2023 at 4:02 PM, CGCRyan said:

I appreciate your patience and apologize for the continued delay. As soon as I get a definitive answer, I will relay it to you.

Sounds good.  Next week is aok too.  Enjoy the weekend!

On 7/4/2023 at 6:49 PM, CGCRyan said:

Sorry for the delay. I have reached out to our graders to get the exact protocol for submitting your Gem Mint 10 card to be reviewed for a possible bump to the CGC Cards Pristine 10 grade. Our offices have been closed yesterday and today for the Independence Day holiday, but I will follow up with them first thing tomorrow when our offices re-open to get the correct information for you as I want to make sure the process is as smooth as possible for you.

No worries and many thanks, Ryan.  Your customer service has been a lifesaver for me over the past year and a half.  I appreciate your follow up!

On 7/3/2023 at 1:02 PM, northkorea said:

You would need to have the card regraded.

I understand that, but "Re-grade card" is not currently an option on the CSG Services & Fees landing page on the website.  What I don't want to have happen, is to pay for the regrading fee -which, for me, will be double the cost of the re-holder fee- and not have the cards re-evaluated for potential Gem Mint 10 to Pristine 10.  I do plan to re-holder all of my cards in the Black Label holders as well as have my Pristine 10's in the Green Label placed into the new Pristine 10 Holders.  

So, how do I go about ensuring that my order is processed correctly?  Is there someone I need to speak with about this or some other way for me to guarantee that this is done correctly?  I am doing monthly shows and selling online and don't have the energy, time, nor patience to deal with issues that go awry with my subs.  As always, I appreciate your insight, guidance, and feedback, Ryan.

On 6/22/2023 at 6:13 AM, CGCRyan said:

A CSG black label Gem Mint 10 can be sent back in to be reviewed for a CGC Cards Pristine 10, but that would be a standard grading fee not the reholder fee. A black label CSG Gem Mint 10 will reholder as a Gem Mint 10 in the new CGC Cards label.

Ryan: thank you for providing these insights.  What service do I need to select to have my CSG Black Label Gem Mint 10's reviewed for a CGC Pristine 10?

Micky 8 -- I agree with every single thing you've said.  PSA sucks a dead donkey's butthole on vintage.  CSG and SGC are way aligned; more than people think, as you stated.  CSG is becoming more accepted too.  I've been auctioning CSG slabs, many of which are ones that I want to get rid of to lower my inventory, and I am getting pretty comparable auction sales to PSA.  It's improving which is so needed!

On 1/8/2023 at 5:00 PM, northkorea said:

SGC is kind of a waste of time to submit to.

I would say that CSG's grading standards may be the best, and they might have the second best (after BGS) holders for protecting the encased card. That said, PSA's registry is far more complete than CSG's. That increases the demand for PSA graded cards. This is reflected in most CU brands vs CCG brands. This leads to higher market demand for CU cards, artificially. However, I think CSG does grade better than PSA, even though I feel PCGS grades better than NGC, so it's not exactly universal.

You make great points, all.  How do you think CSG is doing with marketing their grading services?  

On 1/5/2023 at 7:33 PM, Matthew_Natale said:

It would be interesting CSG offered a no 9.5 option.   Take your chance, 9 or 10?   What do you think?

I'd love that...I would probably roll the dice more often than not.  Would you do the same?

On 1/5/2023 at 12:12 PM, TwoYewts said:

For what its worth I'm a fan of CSG's services and hope that they end up deciding to keep a low submission cost so that non commercial hobbyist collectors like myself can continue to grow their collections without breaking the bank.  Don't forget that CSG still has a whole other community to tap into with regards to non-sports trading cards.  Whether they decide to finally start grading non-sport under the CSG logo (which as a collector I hope is the case for uniformity in my PC) or expand CCG's offerings, I believe they would do well in this market.  I know there have been several requests posted on these forums for CSG to start expanding in this area to compete against PSA and SGC. As has been mentioned, I find the CSG holders and the grading consistency of the orders I have submitted my biggest factor in continuing to use CSG's services. I have submitted to all of the major grading agencies and I find CSG the most reliable when it comes to the grades I expected the cards to receive (while finding PSA the absolute worst). I submit mostly for PC purposes and the occasional cards I put up for sale are strictly ones that have been replaced by higher graded versions so the ending sale price doesn't concern me too much but as an investor I can see the concern some of you have expressed when comparing CSG sell comps to PSA sell comps.  I agree with Micky 8 though in stating that too many collectors have been drinking the PSA Kool Aid and I know several that have been badly burned by what I feel is rushed through grading spending money to only then crack out the ridiculous low balled cards they receive back from PSA.

In the end I don't think CSG is going anywhere but up.  They are large enough to compete, have been in the collectibles grading industry long enough to know how to survive and I believe will retain enough of a collector base to continue to provide service and expand.

I agree with just about everything you said...thanks!  What do you think the best price point would be for CSG to cost out their grading services for bulk?

On 1/5/2023 at 10:37 AM, micky 8 said:

sgc had a $9 deal with for bowman chromes so they had a good month, psa not sure how accurate their numbers are they have a backlog, tons of resubs and like everything with psa its a bit convaluded. they been around over 20 years, csg has a big hill to climb majority of the major collectors before 2020 have huge collections in psa slabs..a lot of people in the hobby have a ton of stock in psa they dont wanna see that drop and lots of the hobby just conforms and dont think for themselves. Overall the market is in a dip nothing seems to be moving very fast, but i think csg is slowly building legitamacy n trust in the hobby its just gonna take time. Its impressive csg is in the big 4 conversation and competes with sgc, bgs n psa and they only been open little over a year. If they can do that in a year i think in 5 years they are gonna be a real force in the hobby, Csg is building a solid following of pc collectors and becoming more trusted overall I just sold a Lebron topps rc csg8, trout rc bowman chrome csg 9 and a 87 jordan csg 7 and got slightly under psa comps 10-$20 under psa comps n sold in less then 2weeks not bad, i think more people are buying csg even if they crack em they trust they are getting a fair graded sharp card just gonna take some time n a few power moves by csg to stay competitive, good luck! 

Great points Micky 8!  I agree with nearly everything you mentioned.  I guess I have to be patient.  I have sold some CSG slabbed cards for just under comp's as well...it's just going to take some patience and time.  Still, I'd like to see CSG ramp up their discount and really try to undercut SGC and BGS.  In terms of PSA, everything you said I agree with!  Thanks for responding brother!

On 12/31/2022 at 11:58 AM, UncleTed said:

love 'em.    Agree that this is needed.   The either 9 or 10 thing at the others does indeed make it a guess, or depends on if the grader is hung over and in a bad mood or not.  

Yeah, I agree with the 9 or 10.  PSA's reliability sucks a dog's butt.  CSG is far more reliable and accurate with their grading.  It's just been nearly impossible to move cards in CSG slabs.  I appreciate the hung over part about PSA though and would add potentially stoned graders at PSA as well.

On 1/1/2023 at 7:29 PM, micky 8 said:

I hate the 9.5 but its 100% nessacary!! Unfortunately i have a lot of 9.5's but with modern cards I think nuance is important or the market wil be flooded with a ton of pack fresh 10's or worse you have a bunch of really good 9's!! Even tho I get extremely dissapponted when i get a 9.5 I have to accept that my card had a flaw and its not a GEM! but its better then a 9!!  😃  🍻

I also hate the 9.5's.  They are impossible to move.  They also drive down CSG's gem rate, which at a broader scale, does not do CSG nor it's supporters any favors whatsoever.  I mean, a 9.5 is great but in the grand scheme of things, it seems like a pretty meaningless grade if you're trying to resell, which I am.

On 12/30/2022 at 10:41 PM, creags said:

Submitted 3 cards to CSG recently..all came back altered.

This is hysterical! One of those cards, a 1963 Bob Lily rookie, was once in a PSA 7 (st) holder.

CSG also did this with 3 Venezuelan cards I sent them. I guess no one told the graders that Venezuelans are known for odd cuts.

If you want to pay $20-plus to have your cards not get graded, CSG is the place for you.

Bush-league all the way, right down to the blah holders.

--Reid Creager

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reid: awhile back I submitted a 1956 Topps Hank Aaron that had been in a PSA 7 slab that had been authenticated by eBay/CSG.  Because I have been a supporter of CSG and because I want to have my 1956 Topps cards in CSG slabs (at least I did), I subbed it to CSG.  It came back as altered.  I then submitted it to PSA and it came back as a PSA 7.  CSG needs to get it together and start getting serious about what it's going to take to be a player in the grading game.  Right now, CSG is getting it's tail kicked by PSA and SGC.  Offering a 20% discount right after CSG raised their prices this past fall is clearly not enough to keep pace.  I strongly suggest CSG start promoting their slabs through better pricing, better marketing, and/or better public relations or they are going to fall off; I'm already seeing this happen and it's not good.  

CSG moderator - your thoughts?

I have been a big fan of CSG for well over year now.  The vast majority of my cards have been slabbed by CSG.  I love the holders but they are impossible to move right now, at least in my experience; far less so with PSA slabbed cards.  I have also noticed that the CSG grading numbers for sports cards have been falling month by month.  It seems like fewer people are grading with CSG on the sports cards side of things.  I am not ready to bail on CSG, but l'm wondering what people think CSG could do differently or better to improve their numbers relating to the number of cards graded, resale, etc.?  Last month, for example, SGC graded over two times as many cards as CSG.  PSA graded over 1 million cards.  Maybe the point is a moot one, but I feel like CSG could be doing more innovating as it relates to getting more customers grading with them for sports cards.  Thanks for making time to respond - I am genuinely interested in what people think about this topic.  Like I said, I am in this for the long haul but I also need to be able to move cards from my inventory and in order to do that I need CSG to market their services in a way that gets them more out front.  

Thank you to all who responded...I appreciate your opinions and thoughts!

Thanks for offering your thoughts, Matthew!

I have been a collector for 41 years.  I recently began investing in sports cards and have been on line dealing and in person dealing since this past March.  I love CSG slabs and much prefer them over PSA, BGS, and/or SGC.  My question for the forum is this: how do people feel about 9.5 grades from CSG?  Like them, dislike them, neutral?  Thanks.

Thanks Ryan...they've already fixed this!

The cards were never added as "shipped" in the CSG system. 

The cards are as follows:

1953 Topps Mickey Mantle CSG 6

1956 Topps Ted Williams CSG 7.5

1956 Topps Jackie Robinson CSG 8

Can you please ensure that this is fixed?  I need these cards added to the system and registered.

I'm not requesting new slots.  The slots already exist in the registry.  The cards were sent back to me but they were not ever registered for reasons unbeknownst to me.  See attached.  As you can see, the submission number is not highlighted nor linked.  There is also no record that the cards were ever shipped yet, I received them in the mail last week. 

?