Bookery

Everyone says this, but it's essentially meaningless. If the vast majority of collectors could grade well enough to buy the book and not the label, CGC wouldn't even exist.

Maybe... maybe not. I suspect it's actually a small number of influential dealers and CGC customers demanding it, and not the larger market per se. They say modern politics and social trends are now almost entirely influenced by a small number of vocal and persistent social media posters. In my town, a single merchant, who's not the biggest by far, nor brings in the most customers, has almost total influence in what goes on in the downtown district because... well, just because. One of the potential problems is that this (and I agree it is inevitable) may actually harm CGC's long-term reputation. My reasoning is this... because so many important books have already been slabbed, most of the 9.7s will be new submissions. While someone may send in a 9.6 for re-submission, hoping for a 9.7, 9.8s are generally assumed to be maximized to their full potential (especially older comics). Nobody is going to send in a 9.8 so their book can be "properly regraded" a 9.7. So you will have thousands of books out there technically "over-graded" alongside all the new "proper" 9.7s. This is different than the occasional "gift grade", etc. This will be a huge number of books co-existing exhibiting different grading systems. The concept of making the grades even more accurate will actually cause the reverse... why trust a 9.8 if it might not really be a 9.8 under new standards?

Welcome to my world of the retail storefront... talk about uneven playing field!

"We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives. And remember my friend, future events such as these will affect you in the future." -- Criswell

A part of me misses that building... but we simply outgrew it. We now occupy 4 addresses downtown, a few blocks away. But it wasn't very practical... it was broken down into 4 small rooms inside, and with the outside step, and two steps down once you got inside, it wasn't really handicapped-accessible. It was the end-cap of a small little office-center. The landlord was eccentric, and collected all sorts of odds and ends, which as you can see, he incorporated into the building. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing the shopping center was erected in the late '50s or early '60s. We occupied it from 1988-1996.

This is the "Death of Superman" line way back at our old location. Eventually there were about 100 in line before the doors opened.

Actually, when you're wrong, you're wrong. And it's time I manupped and faced the music. I have erred. Most folks on these boards, when shown to be in error, just slink off without a word and move on to the next thread. I hope to start a new trend... so let the apology tour begin... I have besmirched the reputation of hypothetical dealer, and I apologize. I called him a crook, before all of the hypothetical facts were in. I think I was just jealous of the incredible deal he pulled off. But that's no excuse. I have known hypothetical dealer for years. He's actually a pretty good guy. I have even met his hypothetical wife and hypothetical kids. They are truly the epitome of the all-American hypothetical family. In fact, hypothetical dealer has spent bucketloads of money with me in the past, and hypothetically vice-versa. I hope I have not destroyed any hypothetical deals we may have in the future. I was in a hypothetical bad mood, and one should never be posting when that happens. Again, I wish hypothetical dealer all the best... he's pretty swell. And in fact, I urge everyone here to check out his hypothetical eBay store... there are some amazing deals there if you act quickly! * Of course there are some amazing deals there... the bloody bastahd ripped off that poor little old lady and enriched himself by hundreds of thousands of dollars... so yeah, he can offer some great deals! Yay for him, the scurrilous scum!.... No... ahem.. sorry, sorry... I apologize again... just a spurt of jealousy once again rearing its ugly head. Bottom line: hypothetical dealer... great guy... buy his stuff. End.

Whatever. Ultimately, this is a scenario with so many qualifiers that it will never ever ever happen... so I guess it doesn't matter. Again... we're given all this, but no idea of what is in the collection. As a vintage dealer, you say a $300,000 collection my mind leaps to big runs of silver-age or golden-age... and so I'm thinking a 10% offer is ludicrous. But if you're talking lots of smaller value books more modern books... even with some keys... say 10,000 comics... then that's a different story too. However, I find it amusing that there is such inconsistency on the boards. I remember reading a thread about a month or ago where LCS dealers were being slammed if they didn't offer at least 90% market value on a major key (a ridiculous concept on so many levels), and now a dealer is slammed if he suggests 10% on something as enriching as $300,000 is too low (we're not talking offering $30 on a maybe-$100 book here... we're discussing life-changing money). So which is it? Oh, I think I know. The dealer is always slammed all of the time... no matter what.

Nobody suggested that the person should hold out for the full $300k. Assuming we're talking about a large collection (not just a single copy of Action #1), nobody is going to see a net $300k out of this... not the seller, not the dealer, nobody. It costs money to make money. Whether you sell them yourself or go through a dealer, somebody is going to have to pay overhead, eBay fees, PayPal fees, convention fees, travel expenses, advertising, and ultimately, the discounting of what's left after the hot stuff sells.

You are right... I was being a bit dramatic to emphasize I thought it was odd to use a 10% payout as being an example of the "noble" dealer. But I should know better than to respond to extreme hypotheticals. However, I did say that $30k might be reasonable, or more than reasonable, if we're talking pure dollar-box bulk. The example given gave us no clue as to the quality of the books. However, if this was a quality collection worth every penny of its $300k, it shouldn't matter that the dealer has only $30k in his pocket, because he could make some calls and bring in some other dealers to help bundle together a fair offer. AND... as long as we're dealing in silly hypotheticals, wouldn't someone offering to accept $30k AFTER you've informed them they are worth $300k seem a bit suspicious? If their situation is truly desperate, couldn't the dealer pay them $30k up front with an agreement to pay a balance (of a fair offer) later after he'd had a chance to sell some of the books? Wouldn't that be the "more honest" position? Frankly... in this hypothetical situation, dealers who have been around know that there is about a 95% chance these books are stolen. The "honest" dealer would get the license plate and any other data he could get, walk away from the collection, and contact the police afterward so that when the report of stolen goods comes in, they are already prepared. How's that for a hypothetical response!

Nope. Pre-LCS, there was no one to promote a specific issue... there really weren't any "event" comics back then. There was no Previews. I bought comics in the '60s. You went to the drugstore, and you saw what was there. At most, you would have a month's heads-up about the next issue in the previous issue's ad. But hype for a comic was pretty much limited to the cover blurbs. And no magazine or TV show commented about specific comic book issues (comics were kids' products, and super-heroes especially were considered just about the lowest form of literature... networks and slick magazines wouldn't have noticed or cared about anything that happened in the stories).

It depends. Everyone has their own business model. I don't like selling on eBay, but for me it's also a matter of time. I put in 50-60 hours per week at the store, and most evenings are spent working on my reference guides. The few hours I have on my day off are spent like most folks do -- grocery shopping, yard work, etc. My staff is similarly stretched pretty thin right now. But there's no doubt the brick-and-mortar model is declining... even for big and established stores. However... I do take issue with how a lot of people here view eBay. Apparently, it's a magic world... most here pan shops because they are "too expensive" and they can get far better "bargains" on eBay. Then they'll turn around and tell me I should be selling more on eBay in order to get top value and "not leave dollars on the table". News flash... it can't be both... at least not consistently. For the stuff I specialize in, I don't find eBay very useful.* Gold and silver-age books are almost always way over-priced and generally handled as Buy It Now Only. Deals may be had through the auctions... which are rare... but that's because buyers are wary of untested sellers. Plus, the amount of attempted fraud on eBay is mind-boggling. If you're buying modern-era slabbed books, then you can probably get some deals because there are so many copies to choose from. * eBay probably works best for collectors who stick to established dealers whose grading standards and practices are already known. But most won't do this... they look for that "amazing deal" from some "original owner" who is "not a professional grader but...". I understand many live in areas without decent shops or nearby conventions and have few other options. But if you are in an area where you can view lots of material in person, I can't see eBay (the above qualifier aside) being all that attractive for buying collectibles.

It's more complicated than that. It depends upon the source. CGC was created, at first, with mail-order sales in mind. When one is unable to view a book in hand, it was important to have some sort of reliability in what you were actually buying. And even now, a raw book from some unknown original owner on eBay claiming his book is 8.0 will not (should not, anyway) bring near as much as a CGC-graded book. On the other hand, there are dealers out there whose grading is as trusted as CGCs, and they will get close to slabbed value for their material. I generally get about 90% of CGC value for my raw books*. One can't expect to get 100%, because the slab itself has value... and you have to leave room for that value. If CGC Book A is worth $1000, and it's going to run about $100 to get that slab, a raw copy, even with dead-on grading, shouldn't be bringing any more than $900. And a seller whose grading isn't "dead-on", or who is an unknown quality... won't even get close to that. * The caveat to the above is on cheaper books. A CGC book whose current value is $25-$30 is probably only worth about $5 raw, because the majority of that $25 value comes from the cost of having the book slabbed itself.

I suppose if the $300k is all $1-stock, then $30k is a fair offer. Otherwise, your LCS 2 guy is also a crook! I know there are still some dealers able to get good collectibles for 10-cents on the dollar... but I think in this day and age it's a lot rarer then folks on here tend to believe. For most dealers, the margin on decent collectibles is pretty small. A payout of 60% - 70% on a mid-grade key is likely, and if you are not in a major metropolitan area, you'll probably also knock off 10-15% on the other end when you sell. Also factor in that the buyer is apt to use a credit card, costing you another 2-3%. When you realize that you can double your money on a new-release comic, and order exactly what you can sell... or on RPGs do likewise AND re-order at will... you'll understand why a lot of small shops don't deal in vintage material, slabbed or otherwise. Those of us that do deal in them do so because we like them... but again, you have to get big enough that you can turn a large quantity of material to make it feasible. There are dealers like Dale who buy a lot of material from other dealers. He picks them up in smaller markets and takes them to large conventions in big cities. But his mark-up is not going to be huge, and his overhead with table fees and travel costs is large. He and other dealers like him make it work by doing the work... a lot of it. The dealer who gets great stuff by ripping off his customers is not a myth... but in the modern environment with all of the knowledge and info out there about comics, and all of the myriad types of competition, with each passing year it gets closer to being one.

I dunno... it's actually 300 times rarer than a 10.0!

A 10 of pretty much anything will sell because it's a 10. But I don't think I could give away Batman Damned in 9.8 around here... at least not 30 days out from its release. And that's another problem not addressed here... a lot of those Diamond books you refer to are "hot" for only a brief period. By the time books are returned from grading, it may already be too late to sell them... certainly to sell them for enough to cover grading, shipping, insurance costs. As for mail order... I rarely do it. And I don't do conventions. I sell here in the shop, period. But since my sell-through on all but the slowest drek, which wouldn't sell online either, is pretty near 100%... why would I? If you grade correctly, price fairly, pay fairly, and have your stock organized... it's true that if you build it, they will come. Yes, I might get higher prices online or at a show... but not enough to compensate for what I save on eBay and PayPal fees, convention fees, travel, hotels, etc. I sell a lot to dealers, and let them handle those costs. The model works for both me and them.

I'll happily buy CGC books when they come into the shop. But I only send off the rarest or most expensive books for grading myself. The sweet spot for most collectors is in that $50 - $200 range for collectibles. The cost for slabbing is just too high to make these worthwhile (contrary to popular belief... not everybody is a crook, and some of us have to pay a high percentage for the books we buy, leaving not a lot of room for adding even more expense for a small potential benefit). I also have customers (most actually) that prefer raw books. They like my grading. They can decide themselves if they want to send them off themselves, have them signature witnessed, or just plain be able to look through them. Dealers prefer my raw books because they trust my grades, and they can often have them pressed and graded to their benefit. If I do that ahead of time, I lose those sales, and now the books are too expensive for the local market. There are no hard and fast rules. But barring an incredible high-grade collection, I can't imagine I would be sending large quantities of stuff off for grading. Each market dictates how you handle things.

You are correct... I used the term only as it was already employed in previous posts... but I addressed it initially in quotes. Most markets recede rather than actually crash. (However... manga is the exception... for us it did pretty much crash. We went into one summer break selling about $1000 per week in manga issues as usual... and when school resumed in September, it was all but dead. Apparently teenage girls spread the word it was no longer cool to collect manga, or something... but the speed of the collapse was astounding. We currently sell $0 per week in manga). Non-sports cards was another market that pretty much actually crashed (a long long time ago)... but it went from a major seller to virtually nothing in very short order. I don't really count things like Beanie Babies, Garbage Pail Kids, etc.... these were clearly short-term fads right from the start. History is a great guide to the future. But there is something going on right now that is pretty close to unprecedented. Young people are no longer collecting anything. People have always collected things in the past. Cavemen probably collected shiny stones. But today everything is downloaded and temporary (and dangerously fungible... texts, movies, speeches, etc., can be endlessly altered, edited, re-drawn, reworked to make it more popular, more PC, more politically advantageous, whatever... in a way that a tangible object cannot). Bradbury worried books would be burned... instead they are simply... re-invented.

While never exactly "hot", I used to have a fair number of Classics collectors. And in each case, they ONLY collected Classics. Some wanted only 1sts, a couple wanted every variation. But they sold slowly but steadily. But all of these collectors were older gentlemen. I think one actually completed his collection. The others drifted away (or passed away I'm afraid). At any rate... I have no local collectors for them at all anymore. I even had a greater number of collectors for media-westerns... Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, Lone Ranger, etc. They are all gone too. I used to get about $75 (minimum) for any original B-western movie one-sheet (nothing special... just basic movies). Now, if they sell it all, it would be for under $20. When I opened the business in 1984... Tarzan comics were still pretty popular... I sold a lot. Today, nobody ever asks about them. This isn't a complaint btw... it's just the way of things. Every generation has different things they hold dear. Unfortunately... my rule of 75 counts days, not years. If it's over 75 days old... I've probably forgotten about it. If I made this same post 11 weeks ago... I apologize.

This has been used before, but the ironic thing is the market HAS "crashed" for many things... maybe just not the things you collect. Most western comics have crashed. Classics Illustrated have crashed. Most movie and TV tie-ins have crashed. Disneys have crashed. Little Lulus have crashed (believe it or not there was a time when it was difficult to keep these in stock). Manga has crashed. We're one of the largest shops in the country, but our unit sales of new-release comics are about a third of what they were 10 or 15 years ago. Graphic novels sales are way way down. Super-hero, sci-fi, horror, and good-girl art is still strong... but genre-wise that's a small portion of the overall product out there. But the comic market got lucky... twice! The first was when CGC came along. That boosted prices many-fold seemingly overnight. Then when things seemed to settle down a bit, technology with CGI came along and made it feasible to do all of these big-budget movie adaptations. But make no mistake... everything that's printed (and I'm talking the market for physical books, not electronic here) is overall in decline. Sure the superstars in each field keep outperforming... but the majority of first edition books, movie posters, etc., are falling off as new generations have no idea who these authors and stars are. Big Little Books were actually a hot thing once. I have folks come in all of the time (in their 20s and 30s... not just kids) who look at my posters and ask who is John Wayne, Marilyn Monroe, Humphrey Bogart... they haven't got a clue! The younger collectors on here will get the same treatment when you proudly show your grandkids your Hulk 181. "Grampa... what's a wolverine???".

It's both.

I have my own Bookery price guide that I've compiled so that we remain consistent on what we pay for collectibles and what we charge for them (barring periodic updates for any major market swings). So given Chuck's list, I can figure exactly what we would charge for those same items. Now I don't know anything about the McFarlane art or the Superman certificate, but the 13 comics he lists he values at about $39,500. At our store, we would sell them for $8,800. That's a pretty massive difference. If I priced like MH, I guarantee I would be out of business in under 90 days. So I have no idea how he survives all of these decades. But it apparently works for him. HOWEVER... that said, nobody is ever under any obligation to buy his books. Chuck doesn't twist anybody's arm, or extort them into buying his products. A thief gives you no decision, no choices. Your stuff is gone, your property damaged. Insurance claims all always unpredictable and tricky, and at the very least, your rates will go up for having made said claims. Asking high prices is not thievery... a true thief on the other hand, steals more than just property... that property represents your time, your resources... every thief in effect steals a portion of your life. Nobody deserves that just because of the price tags on their products.

Oh, look! RMA likes this post! Odd, since it exhibits a terrible lack of research on the part of the poster. You see, my original post mentioning "nasty and disruptive" was made at 8:53am. My follow-up post about tone was made at 9:51 am. Your link was posted at 4:37pm. I'm not sure how I dismissed a post you didn't make until over 6 hours later. It seems to me, if a person makes this big of an error in a post, one wonders how many errors are in the rest of his posts? One wonders if somebody this sloppy and misinformed shouldn't just "go away"? It's a shame the hypocrisy and cliquish double-standards here have all but ruined this site. But you folks have made it your sandbox, to be sure, so you can fling away in it as you will.

You are leaping to a conclusion. It was RMA who conflated the post you quote above with the one in which I provided several quotes to make my case about the "tone" of the conversation. I used several quotes from 3 different people, not just 2. And I also pointed out there were "4 or 5" (actually more) people I felt were being unfairly harsh. I grabbed several quick quotes which were the first few I spotted skimming back through the thread. I could have had as many more from several other different folks. Assuming my comment about my opinion of "2" is necessarily reflected by the specific quotes I used is simply not correct.

Truly bizarre, since I've posted your quotes right next to my responses. And nobody has been responding to my posts other than you... not sure who I'd be conflating things with? But you are right that I've been a participant in a thread derailing... time to move on.