vaillant

The same book printed in the US with a different cent price or with the Mark Jeweler Advertisement Insert is considered a variant.

Of course, these are variants. I know the meaning of the term, as we’re talking of same-country editions, but I was questioning whether we should call "variants" foreign edition books. That’s the reason for which I could consider a variant L’Uomo Ragno #29, since it features a Steve Ditko cover which was never used in an american edition, neither at the time, nor (to my knowledge) in any US reprint.

@Define999: Corrections are fine, but I think you should explicitate the fact that in some countries, such a thing would have been out of question.

I think that, if in Italy the publisher did not go bankrupt, almost no one would have started to collect original editions. I mean, of course, there would have been a minority, as it has always been the case, but the very moderate english-literacy of the average italian reader, at least up to the 1990s, would have prevented that also.

Not that the situation changed so much, today’s graduates are often barely english-literate, unless they study some scientific matter, or english literature.

Cool, correct me if I am wrong but being that the stickers were structurally part of the comic.

Yes, they were. They were stapled, initially within the centerfold, later on between the cover and the first wrap, occasionally they were polybagged (usually when there was also a poster). Again, the issue came to the collectors' attention, as people become more sensitive about the grade, so it was mostly a curiosity in the 1970s to collect them with stickers. Now it is often a requirement, personally I don’t care, I just care for those stickers I remember I used to have or have seen as a kid…

There should be a notation by CGC if they are missing the stickers?

Well, I think so, mostly because it makes a huge price difference on the italian market.

I have always wondered if CGC’s accuracy would not be as tight with foreign books. I mean who is their expert? Do they have people they can call on in foreign countries? It might be a cool question to ask in the ask CGC forum? How do they handle rare foreign books they have never seen before?

To be honest, here we should make a distinction between what is considered a "variant" and what is simply a foreign edition collectors enjoy because of the "universal scope" collecting may acquire.

The only issue I would consider a "variant" is L’Uomo Ragno #29, which features an alternate version of the Ditko art to the cover, which very likely was sent to the italian publisher by mistake. And which, incidentally, I think is a lot cooler than the US final version.

Another matter would be books which have meaning for the US market. An example could be the comic-book sized post-war reprint of "Saturno contro la Terra", a long story from 1937 which is – to my knowledge – the only italian comic published in comic book form (in McKay's title "Future Comics", pretty rare).

Or some rare 1930s Disney titles, whose cover art is amazing, which now gained exposure thanks to Fantagraphics' reprint of the classic early Gottfredson stories.

That dude is smokin crack

That‘s why he’s not selling it. And there's even worse, but they occasionally find the perfectionist willing to pay high sums.

Look for example at this: http://www.ebay.it/itm/CAPITAN-AMERICA-N-27-CON-ADESIVO-E-POSTER-BLISTERATO-/260876206638?pt=Fumetti_Occidentali&hash=item3cbd6f022e

(a very tough issue to find – as most of those polybagged with posters/stickers, it has had 7 offerings, but it's still there).

Generally speaking, stickers and/or posters make a big price difference.

Price difference can be huge if in high grade and/or still polybagged (later issues with posters were polybagged, very rare to find in this condition).

An example: http://www.ebay.it/itm/UOMO-RAGNO-N-17-CORNO-CON-ADESIVI-EDICOLA-RARISSIMO-/320887742514?pt=Fumetti_Occidentali&hash=item4ab6666032

Which is a way out ridicolously high price (in low to mid grade should go for 80-120 Euros), but it’s just to give an idea. CGC should take this into account, even if our local italian editions are mostly a curiosity for the average US collector.

Without the stickers, it’s about 20-40 Euros (depending on the grade).

Nice grade on that bad boy! Is this the first time Ditkos AF15 cover art made it ontu a Italian book?

Yes, l’Uomo Ragno #18 is the first (and only) use of the cover artwork of AF #15. L’Uomo Ragno #1 featured a collage with Romita artwork. Spidey has those little "sparklings" around his head, and if no one knows, might think it’s his Spider-sense tingling, while it’s taken from the inside pages of the "non-Comics Code" drug-themed issues.

The true question, however (at least for completists italian collectors) is: does it have stickers? You have to break the CGC case to find out, or at least they should state so. Issues with stickers and/or posters usually go for prices about 8x the same ones without stickers.

Just listed more books, to include a National Comics #18

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/paratrooper54/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

 

sold the National #18...that was fast!

 

listed tons more though

 

http://stores.ebay.com/Paratrooper-House-of-Comics

Just received it and wished to thank Vaughn (is there a thread for kudos?).

Good, exactly as described, but in hand it was so fragile I had to apply a little archival tape to avoid damaging it while reading.

Only problem is it leaves me wishing a better grade copy…

On this point I diagree.

Based on my personal experience, copies in strict Nm or better, which means 9.4 or better, are very very hard to find (9.4) or almost impossible (9.6-9.8) and I use the term "almost" because you never say never, but I belive that 9.8 copies are virtually non existant.

Yes, I mistakenly said "near mint", but I see the lowest numeric equivalent for NM is 9.0, so I meant "up to 9.0" as a maximum. I would say, however, that this may largely depend on the fact collecting 1960s comics has bloomed as a phenomenon in the last 10-15 years. When I collected my Fantastici Quattro, I bought them from a friend which used to look for perfect copies, and already had five full runs of "Fantastici Quattro". He sold me his worst copies, which, in most of cases, are truly a 8.5-9.

But it’s very difficult to find them now, that collectors have started to become more fixated with high grades.

I have a pair of polybagged issues (with stickers/posters), however, which must be at least NM, since they are unopened (maybe some slight corner bumping?).

About a year ago I decided I wanted to seek out the Italian 129.. Sure enough I found one on Italian ebay, it was beat up pretty bad!

It had chunks taken out of the cover and was generally in a very poor state. I decided to pass… I think it was like 4 euros…. Cheap and the guy would even ship to America! I thought about it and decided against it. Much of the L' UOMO RAGNO run is on Italian ebay….. key books too. So I decided to wait figuring another one would pop up soon. Guess what? I have a spent the past year actively seeking this book in any grade. No dice….. Can’t find one for sale anywhere. Maybe if I could trawl the comic shops of Italy daily it wouldn’t be a problem? But, for me an American collector…. Its just not available to me…. Some of these foreigns seem to be soooo freakin rare in the marketplace.

I just leave a reply for this now, later on I will be glad to reply to any other questions concerning the italian editions. Maybe it’s better to keep one or a few for each post.

Now, spaeking of the first, "original" Editoriale Corno runs, there are no true "rare" issues in the whole runs. The most costly – and sought after – are the first issues. As for the Punisher first appearance, it's a "non issue": 90% of italians care little to nothing about the Punisher.

Probably, the titles which are more difficult to find in high-grade are "Gli Albi dei Super-eroi" (or "A.S.E.") which was an antologic title publishing, in rotation, Warlock, the Defenders, Werewolf by Night, Dracula, Conan and Luke Cage (the famous "Avengers vs. Defenders" storyline came out here first, and not in the pages of "Thor" where the Avengers were published).

Now, a general consideration about the italian Corno editions: I assure you that, while it may be not so easy to find "perfect conditions" as an american intends them, it’s relatively easy to find NM copies of various degrees, because the paper and the overall production process was qualitatively superior to newsstand original comic books. There is a drawback, however: early issues alternate color pages to b/w pages (for saving money), and often the image quality is not good, as they did not work from film, but Marvel Comics provided them paper printouts, from where the black & white was sourced, then lettered and recolored. Coloring is often pretty good, since it generally follows faithfully the original color scheme, but translations and line art are often lousy. I can go more in detail, for those interested.

The more rare items are the second series of Spider-Man, since it came out as the publisher was losing ground, and he decided to close all titles, concentrating all the Marvel Universe in a single title "Il Settimanale dell’Uomo Ragno" (Spider-Man's weekly). That’s where I read many stories which I hold dear, including the Skrulls aging-ray one, which endangers the lives of Reed, Sue and Ben, and Johnny believes them dead. Or the Carrion storyline, from Spier-Man.

This run is 43 issues, pocket size, 48 pages, and is very difficult to find in its entirety and in high-grade (I have mine, bought back then when I was 13).

The rarest, however, is the third Spider-Man series (titled "L’Uomo Ragno" as the first, commonly referred to as "Uomo Ragno seconda serie" (you can Google that).

The series is, once again, an anthology, always featuring Spidey as the main character, with all the others in rotation, and it ran for 58 issues (rumours of a mythical 59th issue used to spread, but I suspect they aren’t founded at all).

Of course, here, the rarest issues are the last ones: 50 to 58, as the publisher was about to go bankrupt. Some of these have also stickers, so it’s even more difficult to find them in high-grade and with stickers.

An example is this classified ad:

http://annunci.ebay.it/annunci/collezionismo/asti-annunci-canelli/uomo-ragno-corno-ii-seconda-serie-n-56/11148004

where two of them are listed, 50 and 56, respectively at 100 and 300 Euro.

However, I strongly recommend you not to buy anything costly on eBay: for the average italian seller, especially if amateur/collector, there is no true difference between a VG and a VF+. Plus, I think I have somewhere two copies of either #57 or #58, and I will be more than glad to sell them at a reasonable price, since they are so difficult to obtain for you americans.

Generally speaking, it’s better to have someone in Italy buying them for you. In May there will be a convention which we may say it’s the "Golden Age" specialized event in Italy, but there is any kind of comic. It’s very close to my city, and I always attend, so if anyone of you is looking for certain issues in higher grades, I will be glad to look on your behalf,.

All the best again for your family, God bless,

Claudio

@Define999: I confirm you that the overwhelming majority of italian comic book readers don’t care at all about the originals, while they are currently craving to have the italian Corno editions in NM-M state including stickers and posters (yes, we used to have a lot of stickers and posters in the first years, mostly coinciding with key issues, like #1, #25, #50, etc.)

I remember your wife, and your family, in my prayers.

And this one is the funniest. Capitan America #9:

featuring an – ahem – "adaptation" of the original cover, from Strange Tales #114, for a non-matching content (heh, it wasn’t easy to supply original covers for the italian Cap, since he shared "Tales of Suspense" with Iron Man…)

You definitely have a lot of knowledge.

 

PMS on the way.

@bluechip: Thanks, but I assure you it’s less than average.

Just to make sure: OK for the issues which you care about, but do not forget L’Uomo Ragno #29:

http://www.fumetto-online.it/it/corno-editoriale-uomo-ragno-29-uomo-ragno-29-c17897000290.php

(if interested you can buy it here, I think).

It features a different cover than its correspondant Amazing Spider-Man #35:

which, apparently, was a discarded early Ditko version, sent (by mistake?) to the italian publisher, as they worked from b&w printouts (recolored for the italian editions), and not from film.

I think the italian, "original cover" is better.

Man, you are a pit of knowledge \(worship\) \(worship\)

, Matteo, this sounds funny said by a fellow italian…

BTW, you know surely a lot more than me about the current comics market.

If anyone has original first-in-country publications of FF1 or ASM 1 or TOS39 I will pay competitively.

I can speak for, and if you wish, help you, just about my country (Italy).

The first edition of Fantastic Four #1 and Fantastic Four #5 aren’t from the respective long-term "I Fantastici Quattro", but came out in the late 1960s within supplements to the magazine "Linus". In fact, they are the absolutely better printed versions of those stories I have seen (in black and white). I have the first episode of Fantastic Four and I treasure it.

They aren’t so difficult to find (and not so expensive), and since I have to look for the issue with the FF#5 (Doctor Doom) for me as well, if you wish I will see if I find them also for you.

As per the regular issues, I Fantastici Quattro #1 and L’Uomo Ragno #1 are a little costly in high-grade, but the covers are nothing special: they aren’t tweaked at all, they just use different images.

if those exist; Sgt. Fury 1, 13, 18, 19, 64, 75; silver surfer 1, 10, 17, 18. Dr. Strange 169, Strange Tales 135, TOS 39, 45, Sub-Mariner 1, 39.

Early Sgt. Fury issues have been published in Italy before Editoriale Corno started to publish the Marvel Age as a whole. They came out from a little publisher called Casa editrice "Le Maschere" and they are pretty rare (I have never seen them).

The full Silver Surfer series was published as an accompanying feature in the pages of the italian edition of Daredevil (called "Devil" in Italy).

Doctor Strange #169 will already be yours if you find a copy of L’Uomo Ragno #1, since the Doc was published as an accompanying feature (with a considerable time-lapse) side by side with early Spidey adventures.

See here: http://atomik67.altervista.org/COMICS-EDITORI/CORNO/UR-DOCUMENTI/UR_Crono1.htm

The full Sub-Mariner run has been (aptly) featured in the pages of I Fantastici Quattro.

Hope this helps, if I can be of help, send me a PM.

I stopped reading Hellboy, but I used to be a great fan of the series.

I just got a little annoyed by the proliferation of spin-off characters (and mini-series) and less and less Mignola working on them (since he was involved in the making of the Hellboy movies).

Besides this, I felt a little slip on focus in his writing, but I still consider some backup artists' characters amazing work (e.g. Gary Gianni's The Monstermen), and I keep my collection (although I don’t recall if I have the first appearance: is that a Next Men issue?).

@Ogami: What are "educated eyes"? Are you referring to the form?

The comic book collecting community has followed the book collecting community, and I argue, rightfully so, in that true First Editions, from the publisher of the language of the market they were published for, will almost always have more value than reprints of any type, foreign or domestic.

I think this goes without saying, no?

Addenda: Having read selected passages, I have to make some observations.

The first comes regarding the fact of certain foreign readers preferring the original edition. I think the comparision between the original US versions and the UK editions may be pretty misleading. The reason for this is the language. Besides the different shades of American English and British (or Australian) english, we are speaking of the same language, and to me it seems natural that the US original is preferred over a UK edition, which in many cases can be simply seen as a slightly different reprint, even if the UK edition had a considerably lower print run.

Choosing a local edition in another language is an entirely different matter.

Of course, I can speak for Italy only, but Italy is an interesting case.

I assure you the majority (I would say a good 90-95%, to feel safe) of italian readers collectors have developed an interest in the original editions only because the publisher which used to print Marvel went out of business (around 1982-83). We had to wait up to 1987-90 (excluding isolated exceptions, and attempts) to have once again a publisher (or more) consistently translating Marvel titles.

It appears the interest for original editions was mostly motivated by the absence of italian translations, and this was the case for many readers, which stopped buying originals as the local editions restarted on a continued basis.

But there was a part of readers (me included) which may represent a pretty smaller percentage, which became so fascinated with the original editions by getting to see and know them, that decided to privilege the originals.

This, in my opinion, which is also corroborated by documented facts, since I have lived the phenomenon between 1983 and now, has little to do with the Internet.

Of course, the Internet made possible a kind and a scope of collecting which was unthinkable before, but speaking of Italy the two points you have made up (the Internet influence and English literateness supported by educational systems abroad) are not so consistent. We are not – generally speaking – an "English literate" population. Up to the 1960s-1970s, French and German were often preferred over English to be taught in school.

I was speaking the other day with a priest (born in 1924) and from what I get, people of that generation, even people which studied, used to learn French (besides Latin and Greek) at their best (German was out of the question, since our alliance with nazi Germany was problematic to say the least).

My generation (born 1969) became more accustomed to English, thanks also to professional or hobby-related issues (informatics and music come to mind), but in general I would say the majority of readers in Italy prefer collecting italian translated editions.

Younger people (teenagers up to people in their mid-20s) prefer japanese comics (feeling probably some specific affinity due to many factors), but the more limited audience of younger readers and collectors go always for the italian translated editions.

These are my considerations, for now.

Let's say you are told you have a gift coming.... You as a Italian collector are sat down and put in front of you are two comics.....one is a Spiderman 129 in cgc 9.6 the other is the Italian equivilant the L' uomo ragno 149/1976 in cgc 9.6

I really need to read your great article in full, but I try to explain my collecting reasoning for now.

I thought it was clear from my post that it’s out of a question to me: the original edition is not only the most important (for whatever reason corroborating the choice) but it is – the word says it all – "original".

When I started picking up comic books in original edition I found difficulties in reading them because my english skills were still immature, but I found the edition "as it should be". As marmat ("ehilà, chissà se ci conosciamo!" ) explained, Editoriale Corno (the publisher which printed most of the Marvel silver age, for the US collectors, here) made the choice of having fortnight (instead of montlhy) publications, with two/three stories for issues.

Finding the original, I saw how the publication was conceived in its original form. With all the correct indicia, original lettering, choice of number of pages, kind of paper, et al. And this meant the most to me, although, for various reasons, one can be highly affectioned to a translated local edition (I am speaking 360° here, I mean this also for – say – a Tintin album in english, or a McKay's "Future Comics" issue with a "Saturno contro la Terra" episode).

So, to cut a long story short: as I started collecting original comic books, I stopped collecting italian editions, and as a result all my collections aren’t complete (except for "I Fantastici Quattro" which I had almost completed before switching).

Of course, I occasionally buy some italian old issue, but I think most of this comes from the affection you have for it, because it‘s part of your own personal story, but as the original edition can be properly read and understood, and it’s affordable and reachable, I see little point in choosing it over a translation.

If it’s an issue I am affectioned with, I would probably keep both, but having to choose, I’d surely choose the original.

Very interesting, I will have to read it.

Especially because it’s – as it’s often the case with you US collectors – written from your collecting perspective alone.

I am Italian, and I started to collect comics in original edition around 1988. Recently I have started collecting golden age and I have found how interesting is to compare the different countries comics' productions.

Besides this, I always prefer to buy an original edition, and I keep the italian one (which, for you, would be the english one) when I can’t read the original.

Considering foreign editions of american comic book characters becomes very interesting (I speak for Italy) when we try to locate early translations of golden age material. Super-rare publications, occasionally unauthorized, often re-traced or heavily handled, and so on…

But, above all, it’s the historical context which interests me…

What I think Bodhi396 meant – mostly – is not that a higher grade book is not better, and more desirable to collect (I think this goes without saying for most objects, even books or objects with a story, of course), but simply that sometimes there are VF books (and even F books) which are awesome looking, and it is highly disputable when a 9.8 is assigned over, say, a 9.4.

Honestly, I think the system of numeric grading has its advantages (here in Italy, many sellers have a generic very wide "range" and by saying a book is "perfect" they could mean a F up to a NM), but it has also a high number of disadvantages.

To me, it is systematic and professional, but it fuels a collecting frenzy which can make you lose your sense of proportions.

Not to mention you will never find early prewar and interwar italian publications in high grade: they simply do not exist, because the paper and overall manufacturing process was a lot worse than in the US.

I have an original japanese Astro Boy supplement from the "golden age" of the character (the 1950s, since japanese comics bloomed in their modern form after the war) and it looks inflinitely more fragile and "cheap" than a golden age comic book.

@Stevenrams: One o my favorite covers, because of the gracious humour, so different from most of what was being printed back then. I hope to get a copy some day…

Great thread, very useful to know about the sales…

I am a part-time dealer (www.esquirecomics) and full-time attorney. The anti-Communism books are part of my personal collection.

 

That's a great series you own!

Hi Mark, thanks for the reply.

In fact, my interest in golden age comic books was fueled by a research I started on italian comics of the inter-war period, up to 1948 (in 1948 we had a very important general election which excluded communist parties from the government).

See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_election,_1948

(I don’t know if the Wikipedia english entry is biased: it’s just for reference; the forces in play were not merely political interest, as soviet communism had ideological atheist premises).

Italian humorous artist Benito Jacovitti drew, for the elections of 1948, an amazing anti-communist deck of play cards which was distributed before the elections.

See also here: http://www.tonidirossi.it/pubblicartomania/c_116.htm

I’ve been able to put together "This Godless Communism" relatively easily since I wasn’t after high-grade copies (which would be waaay out of my wallet anyway).

@esquirecomics: Are you a dealer?

Sorry for the question, but I am italian and quite new on the forum.

Indeed, the Canadian edition of "Is this tomorrow is very nice".

I have just collected the entire run of "This godless communism" by Reed Crandall from The Catechetical Guild.

Great thread, helps a lot with the research I found myself fascinated by…

During WWII, the Italians despised the Duce. Italian military at the time was a second class military and was suffering defeat after defeat. Read a little WWII history and you'll find out why

Hmm… It’s not so linear. I would not venture in such schematizations. And history books can be pretty misleading, since they tend to look more often just at external facts, than to the person.

In fact, this kind of research presents itself to me (I am italian) as a fascinating quest in history, since it can be done from all angles, and through the privileged means of comics' fiction. Problem is Germany did not have a comics tradition, and Japan matured its own "more modern" approach after the war.

Recently we have had a landmark study on the subject of fascist policy vs. the comics medium, conducted by some friends of mine. The book, of course, is in italian, and focuses on the syndicated strips production (which were the ones started, with Flash Gordon, to be published in large comics "newspapers" in the early 1930s (Superman made his debut on the pages on one of these)).

The book is titled "Eccetto Topolino" (Except Mickey Mouse), a title which refers to a supposed clearance Mussolini gave to the Walt Disney productions (his sons read comics), and to the general indulgence with which Disney and humor comics were tolerated as the MinCulPop (Ministry for the Popular Culture, a fascist institution) up to 1943. After that, the only publication which almost did not cease publication due to those restrictions applied to American comics was "Il Vittorioso", a weekly tabloid which published comics entirely written & drawn in Italy.

Here we had, among the many features, "Romano il legionario", a more patriotic than actually fascist hero which could be seen as a sort of italian counter-part to your Air-fighter comics genre (Blackhawk, Airboy, etc.). A lot more realistic, too, he was created by Kurt Caesar, which had singular positions towards nazist Germany and the alliance.

"Eccetto Topolino" studies all the story, up to the "liberation" of comics, and the restoration of the balloons (the use of balloons was prohibited by MinCulPop), up to the end of the war.

Here's the cover: