wiparker824

Yes and also doesn’t this scammer have books on this list that predate custom labels entirely? I feel like custom labels have only been around since like 2017ish? The reholder was around before them in any case, and people would send them in when the case had some scuffing or minor damage, or if they just wanted out of an old gen holder. The custom label just provided an easier cover for the individual but it was not required for this scam.

I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure even if I cracked a slab for CPR after buying from the scammer that I’d have been instantly thinking I got scammed. I’ve spent too much time in the CGC Quality Control thread to know they mislabel books at a regular enough rate that I’d just assume I got unlucky and they mislabeled a book I bought. The only way I’d be suspicious is if I bought several books from that seller on eBay and then attempted CPR on all of them and they all came back as qualified, restored, missing things, etc. Then it’s no longer conceivable to be coincidence with that many book from one source. But one book? No, it wouldn’t be my first thought to think I was scammed. But that’s just me.

Sounds about right. I seemed to have 2008-2009 in my head for when eBay rolled it out and recall people losing their minds that it would lead to endless anonymous shill bidding.

Keep in mind CGC imaging every book is fairly recent and this scammer selling books goes well before that.

If you are the seller you can see the id’s who you sold to, even if they’re old they are in an email that gets sent to you unless you delete your email. If you aren’t the seller eBay anonymizes and hides everything now.

For me what I have left that I wouldn’t mind him signing are PC books for the most part, so I don’t mind it too much if it doesn’t add a ton of value. I just like his signature a lot on a book.

Applaud the effort here. The last one certainly interesting… very well could have been a book intended to be used as the legit 9.8 holder for his most recent reholder attempts.

I’d rather not give too many ideas to the scammer but I can tell you I’d no longer have any book on this list in my possession if I were him and I’ll leave it at that.

CL chimed in on the thread that they identified a number of books both bought and sold by the individual.

I’d be shocked if 9.8 ASM 194 isn’t number one on the list of the top 10 seeing as this person had over 10% of the census of that book in that grade on this list alone

Again, the AF 15 is probably still with the scammer but it’s just an example. There are other SS books on this list that were sold before CGC was imaging. For example: According to GPA this book was sold in 2016 and then again in 2018. According to CGC it was graded on 3/9/15, just after it was signed, so one would assume it popped into this list because it was reholdered after that but before it was sold. For what purpose? If this book was to sell, and not a PC book then why are you sending it to reholder before you sell it? Custom labels don’t add anything to the sale price and in fact wind up costing you more when you add in the cost to ship, insure, and reholder the book with a custom label. It could be that this book happened to be a reholder the scammer did for a non-scamming reason like the slab was scuffed but there’s no way to know that. And CGC asking for this book back to verify implies they don’t know that either. And this book may not be a 6 figure book like the AF15, but it could be a 5 figure book, and there’s only 4 other 9.8 SS in the census of this book.

Yep, and it’s most likely still with the scammer. We don’t see a public online sale for it and we know the channels he used online to sell. So if it was sold at all, and probably was not, it was privately.

Then it shouldn’t be on the list at all. My point is if you’re asking someone that potentially bought it to send it back to you to verify what exactly are they verifying? Because if you’re verifying grade then you are implying that it might have been swapped and then you have to verify signature. This isn’t just the case for this book, this is the case for all yellow labels on this list. This book may be removed from the list for the reason you mentioned, but as long as it’s up there it’s problematic.

Because you’re admitting this individual was capable of swapping out reholdered. And unlike the blue labels where you just have to verify grade is actually correct to verify the book wasn’t swapped out with a yellow label you have to verify the signature too. Which CGC has never verified signatures, they’ve only ever given yellow labels to books they witnessed.

This is why I think these SS books being on this list are the most problematic for CGC. If they are fraudulent I don’t see a way this doesn’t involve an insider at CGC to help, at least in a way to be profitable enough to make it worth it. But even having these books on the list causes a problem for CGC, you’re basically saying you can’t verify they were witnessed sigs now, so if someone bought one of these and sends it back to CGC they can’t possibly retain the yellow label, which is different than those sending back blue labels on this book that could come back exactly as they were sent, same grade and label with a new cert. The yellow labels are automatically going to the pile of compensation. And if let’s say this person sold this AF15 off privately for example whoever has it isn’t going to just easily be able to replace it even if you compensate with FMV. There are only 3 in SS at 6.5, 5 in SS graded higher. You may be waiting years to see another one in yellow label that high of grade come to market.

Yeah I mean for the record I don’t think all of these yellow labels are fraudulent. I specifically don’t think the AF15 or the JSC ones are. The AF15 like I said many pages ago at this point was signed in AZ (where the scammer was located) at the Ace Comic Con in one of Stan’s last signings. We have no record that book has ever been sold after this and more than likely was a PC or long term investment book for the scammer and isn’t fraudulent at all. The scammer probably sent it back to get the custom label, and that was it. But again we don’t know for certain, and if it’s on this list and gets sent back it does pose the question of what CGC plans to do, because if they suspect tampering then one would expect them to strip the yellow label.

Like I said there are other grading companies that provide yellow labels for books that aren’t witnessed. So the question is, hypothetically of course, does a 6.5 CGC SS + 5.0 CGC go for more than a 6.5 CGC SS + 6.5 “company which won’t be named” SS?

Well you can reholder SS books, I’ve done it before, dropped a Stan signed book and the corner chipped. However in my case it was obvious the book couldn’t possibly be slipped out. In this person’s case, that wasn’t true, but the presumption is if CGC treated their blue labels like they weren’t damaged enough to need a regrade they’d do the same with the yellow label.

If the yellow labels are indeed fraudulent it’s likely forgery. Let’s say you have an AF 15 in a 5.0 slide out your 6.5 legit SS copy and send it to the other grading company for a “verified signature” forge the signature on your 5.0 and slip it back in the 6.5 holder and send in for a reholder. This may not be as easy or profitable but it still nets a profit if successful. I will say though if I had one of these yellow labels I’d like to know what they plan to do when I send it in. For the blue labels I get it, they’re checking if the grade is accurate, the MVS is intact, etc. But what are they doing or planning to do for the yellow labels? CGC’s policy on yellow labels has always been if they don’t witness it, it’s not getting a yellow, and if it’s possible these were slipped out and replaced they can’t actually ever validate that they were witnessed. So, are they going to automatically drop to a blue or green label with “Stan Lee written on cover”?

They wouldn’t all have the same grade date. The reholder would have its original grade date before the others.

Right. And if we are saying that book was graded on 6/26/23 with all of the other books on that sub, and CGC believes it may be fraudulent then CGC is saying they don’t trust all of the books they actually graded. Which is different than saying you don’t trust all of the books you reholdered.

Yes but for this one: For example, they all have the 6/26/23 grade date. But the only one on the list is the 004 book, which happens to be the MJI 9.8 ASM 252. So if that book is a reholder which is the believed theory, then all of the other books that have that same grade dates would be books the user submitted then sent back all of for reholders? But if that’s true why is only one included.

Yeah, but if the books are on one submission with the same grade dates they would either all be reholders, or none. You retain your original grade date on a submission for a reholder but not for a regrade.

+1 for another Toddfather signing