Petey's Wheatcake

How about Marvel Super Special #16 instead? Or Marvel Comics Illustrated Version of The Empire Strikes Back. A plug for my site: http://swcomiccollector.blogspot.com/2014/12/first-appearance-boba-fett.html Question about this Marvel Comics Illustrated version - Your site mentions that this version contained the original design Yoda within it. I have only the Marvel Super Special #16 and on at least one panel (that comes to mind off the top of my head), this version of Yoda is seen as well. Does the version you spoke of originally have only the original Yoda within, in every panel? The Illustrated Version features the original Purple Yoda throughout. It contains the first Marvel comics appearances of Boba Fett, Yoda, Lando, Palpatine, and Carl the Cloud Car Pilot. The fact that it's a paperback means it almost certainly won't be as valuable as #42 anytime soon though. Maybe Star Wars collectors will eventually decide they want the first published Marvel versions of these characters, but those who love to slab everything probably won't be in as big of a rush to grab it. If you gotta catch 'em all, it's still very affordable, and there are usually a couple of decent copies available on eBay at any given time.

Jack sent the books immediately, added a great bonus book, and then took the time to track down a few more items on my want list. This was a perfect transaction in every way. Thanks, Jack!

Now I can't stop picturing Chuck Heston when he gets the hose in POTA. Lazy people rely on memes of the imagination.

Actually, I think his greatest, key moments come when he teams up with small, feisty, woodland creatures like wolverines or raccoons. :wink: For me, the overlooked key that always mattered was IH #205. It was my ASM #121 when I was a very little kid. In fact, I still have the tattered, well-loved copy that I received for my 5th birthday. A child shouldn't have to know of such pain at that young age.

Because of the return of the grey Hulk? I don't get it... +1 Unless there is something in the book I am missing like a 1st Appearance or something this is really Not anything to chase... Jeez just grab a modern reprint of hulk #1 Synopsis for "The More Things Change"Edit SHIELD has made a new genetic bath to cure Bruce Banner by making him control the Hulk. But something goes wrong, when Rick Jones notices that General Ross is fooling with the tank. At the same time Hulk is thrown in the bath. Rick and Ross fight, but the battle ends with Rick thrown into the bath too. Suddenly the tank breaks, and the new Hulk is born. He is Gray again after all these years. REALLY ! That's it and this is a chase book? someone tell me its more than Hulk being grey again ! Isn't the Grey Hulk from #1 actually a retcon which took place after #324 though? It was always my understanding that they pretended he was green in the first issue(in subsequent reprints, Origins of Marvel Comics for instance, he was colored green instead of his original grey), and it wasn't until later that they fit the whole Grey Hulk concept into the multiple personality storyline. #324 probably deserves the credit for the differences in approach concerning the portrayal of the Grey Hulk.

Me too. Just looking at the cover brings back happy memories. Of course, they are memories of people having their spines torn from their bodies, but still happy memories nonetheless.

Wow. I had no idea on this one. But raw copies can still be easily acquired for only a few dollars. I realize many of those copies are probably in the VF range, but still, $185 for a 9.8?

Did you get a chance to watch the show, Chip? I think if you gave it a fair shake, you might be surprised.

I remember when I was a kid and some of the old-timers would treat late Silver and early Bronze like drek, while I revered it like lost treasure recovered from the Well of the Souls. But when it comes to early 90s books, I can't believe certain issues I once owned stacks of, now sell for hundreds of dollars. It's like you said though, if the buyers and sellers are both happy, then all is right with the world.

The last time I went looking for newsstand copies was when Marvel introduced the Angela character in GotG. I went to Books and Co., who, at the time still had an extensive comic selection. That was maybe 1 1/2- 2 years ago? Book World is a chain in the frozen north(MN, WI, IA, IL, and MI, as I recall) that still sells comics. Fairly decent selection of trades and hardcovers as well.

I spoke to the manager at a Barnes & Nobles in Queens, NY over a year ago and he informed me that Marvel wasn't distributing anymore newsies because of too many returns. The newsstand area in my Barnes and Nobles is pretty well dominated by Dark Horse, Archie, DC and I think even IDW had a few. Marvel has very few X-men, Avengers, Deadpool and that's about it. And now Marvel has discontinued newsstand distribution of their comics entirely. I still see Marvel Super Heroes Magazine at Target though.

Thank you for using facts to dispel what is a commonly stated idea. (thumbs u I've been saying this forever, but apparently no one was paying attention, even with an immediate second printing starting them in the face. If it had a "huge print run", a second printing wouldn't have been necessary. I'd sure like to know where this "ASM #361 had a huge print run" myth really came from. Yes, let's use facts to see who keeps using the words "huge print run" in reference to Amazing Spider-Man #361. This is what I wrote: However, at no point did I use the words "huge print run". Not once. What's weird though, is how you wrote "huge print run" three times, and "large print run" once. Huh. Either way, the facts seem to indicate that your statement should now be changed to "I'd sure like to know where this 'ASM #361 had plenty of copies' myth really came from." Short answer: that comment wasn't directed at you. So no need to get bent out of shape about it. Not everything is about Petey's Wheatcakes. Long answer: That was a general comment (made clear by the context of both mine and 500club's comments), not directed at you specifically. No need to be offended, nor is there a need to parse casual comments that use vague adjectives like "large" and "huge", neither of which have any specific meaning. You are not the first, and you won't be the last, to make the claim that ASM #361 had a (insert whatever adjective best describes your position about the actual size of the print run here) print run. Yes, and they were posted here. You didn't read what I wrote, did you...? Come on, now, you can admit it, don't be shy. Most don't. It's nothing to be ashamed about. (I'm just tweaking you, don't be offended.) You should probably just speak for yourself, and not include me in your (polite) accusations of intellectual dishonesty and pedantry. I'm not terribly offended...you're not the first, and won't be the last...but you have neither been misquoted nor selectively quoted so as to misrepresent your position...one more time, the statement was not directed at you specifically... Nor has the "minutiae" been "dissected." If I "dissect" a point, it is because I think it is germane to the discussion. How else does one establish the facts of any matter? Vague generalities? That's what causes the problems and disagreements in the first place. I won't go into detail about why people make that particular accusation, but it's usually because the data shows they are in error. Facts, shmacts! Who needs 'em? Vague generalities are the way to go! No one cares about the difference between "huge print run" vs. "large print run" vs. "plenty of copies" except you. Which, I agree, is irrelevant minutiae. If you choose to be offended...whether it's legitimate or not...you will be. Good! No one is. This is a discussion, not a courtroom, regardless of how you may think I come across. On the contrary. There have been some excellent details brought forth in this conversation that have informed quite a few readers, if nothing else. And people now have a data-set to work with, so they aren't operating under false impressions about just what exists, and in what quantities. That's very valuable, especially in a "what's heating up?" thread. The more details one has, the better informed their decision making is. And, to my way of thinking, that's ALWAYS a good thing. Thank you very much for the post. The only glaringly obvious inaccuracy I see is the part where you imply that not everything is about me. You simply don't know me well enough yet. :wink:

I guess that would be me, but I just feel like I'm caught in this spiral of adversarial posting back and forth where everything is becoming more about one-upmanship than anything else. If I'm overreacting, I apologize. I'm not upset or annoyed in the least. It was simply starting to feel repetitive, and mostly due to my part in the discussion. In general, the prices from 35 years ago, and newsstand vs. direct discussion, are fascinating as always. Just like I said last night, RMA always makes the thread a much better read. As far as Copper newsstand is concerned, I remember visiting the local B. Dalton and Waldenbooks stores to grab books like Action Comics #662 and Silver Surfer #50 when they were unavailable for anything less than multiples of cover price everywhere else. It's kind of a bummer that you can't catch up on any Marvels you miss at the newsstand these days.

Thank you for using facts to dispel what is a commonly stated idea. (thumbs u I've been saying this forever, but apparently no one was paying attention, even with an immediate second printing starting them in the face. If it had a "huge print run", a second printing wouldn't have been necessary. I'd sure like to know where this "ASM #361 had a huge print run" myth really came from. Yes, let's use facts to see who keeps using the words "huge print run" in reference to Amazing Spider-Man #361. This is what I wrote: And I do draw a comparison between Legends#3 and ASM #361 earlier in the thread also: So I clearly believe that ASM #361 had "plenty of copies" printed, but I seem unsure as to whether or not the print run was greater than Legends #3. Hmmm. In the context of what I was writing, Legends #3 seemed to be "an even better example" mostly due to the possibility of an increase in demand attributable to a movie bump, not because of it's print run. And in the first quote, I do seem to be inferring that #361 had the higher print run because of the way in which I use the words "if that" followed later on by "then". In conclusion, it would appear I thought that they had relatively comparable print runs, but ASM #361 had the edge. Hey, guess what? I'm right here, so I just asked myself, and it turns out this hypothesis is indeed correct. However, at no point did I use the words "huge print run". Not once. What's weird though, is how you wrote "huge print run" three times, and "large print run" once. Huh. By the way, did you ever dig up hard, factual numbers on which issue actually had the higher print run? I recall that the evidence seemed to imply that the final estimate was probably similar for both issues, but ASM #361 had the edge(strangely similar to what my fuzzy Lieberesque memory guesstimated). Maybe this is another silly fallacy of mine though. Either way, the facts seem to indicate that your statement should now be changed to "I'd sure like to know where this 'ASM #361 had plenty of copies' myth really came from." Honestly, we could go back and forth dissecting the minutiae of every statement we both make, and we could both keep cheating by misquoting or selectively quoting each other's posts again and again, but I'd rather not. I'm not trying to win. Let's discuss "Copper's Heating/Selling Well on Ebay" instead. "You can see from my previous posts that even if both issues sold 500,000 copies it would not alter my assertion that the demand will be greater than the supply" is a direct quote of mine. The exact print run of ASM #361 was always a tangential discussion as far as I was concerned; my main assertion is that Kevin76 and CopperAgeKids made some good points, and that popularity is usually more important than scarcity in terms of comic book investing. That's basically all I'm trying to get across at this point. Some very knowledgeable comic book enthusiasts disagree with that last statement, and I love a good discussion, but it feels like we've drifted way off course in this instance.

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist. Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me. RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand. Let me put it this way: What many of you consider to be a large print run, isn't. The real question is, what do YOU consider to be a large print run? Let's get specific. Aside from the monsters (Spiderman, X-Force, X-Men) there weren't many titles that had million+ print runs, even for specific issues, up through 1992. The vast, vast majority of books...until 1993...still had print runs in the 200-400k territory. Do you know what the print run for Legends #3 is? Cap City orders have a number of 45,150, against Superman #1 orders of 91,650. (And MOS #1 numbers of 175,000+) Remember...these numbers took DC over Marvel in sales for the first time since 1971. They are gargantuan numbers....for the time period/ Legends #3 was right about in the middle of where Crisis numbers were at...in fact, it beats most of them. And, remember....in 1986, the newsstand was still a force to be reckoned with, with still as much as 40% of all sales in comics. So, Legends #3 probably sold in the neighborhood of 300,000 total copies. Nothing to sneeze at. From the Cap City numbers, it looks like Legends may have been more successful even than Crisis. So, no, Legends #3 is not going to be rare, even in 9.8. PS. X-Factor #6? Cap City orders of 47,200....or just a shade more than Legends #3. Premised, of course, on what you perceive to be higher print run, rather than what actually has a high print run, as shown by ASM #361. I have a quick moment to reply, so I'll choose the shortest post. Based on your numbers, would ASM #361 not have had a print run greater than that of Legends #3? Wasn't 68,000 only 15-20% of the estimated run? Like I said, I'm short on time so I may have completely misread that, and I'll have to double check tomorrow. Either way, you can see from my previous posts that even if both issues sold 500,000 copies it would not alter my assertion that the demand will be greater than the supply for Legends #3 if people start to speculate that this film can achieve Guardians level success. I'm almost certain that it won't, but that also doesn't matter in the least. This book will initially peak prior to the film's opening anyway. However, if it is a decent success, then current prices are as cheap as they will ever again be until the collapse of Western civilization. I know some will disagree with this, and I'm interested in hearing their opposing points of view. Discussing these topics makes posting fun. Once again though, I want to elaborate and say that there is no available supply that is greater than a character's breakthrough into our pop culture. For instance, if 800,000 copies were printed of Tony Stark's first appearance in 1988, there would not be enough supply to meet demand(my own fantasy scenario, cuz I realize they are fun). There is no key with a print run large enough to have a negative impact. So much more to reply to: I specifically mentioned Showcase #4 because we've discussed in previous threads how the more popular character, with the greater demand for their first appearance, won out. Once again, that's not going to change for anything other than the rare sale here or there. Overall, AF #15 will always be the top Silver key from now until the Second Coming. It seems that I write so slowly that I've run out of time already. Thanks again for the discussion!

I have to take my leave of the computer for the night, but I look forward to reading more of what you have to say tomorrow, RMA. The boards are a far more enjoyable place due to your presence.

What makes a comic valuable is: supply and demand. Okay, then we do agree, and have since the very beginning of this discussion. See, the part where you tell me that supply and demand are both important, and then quote me as saying that supply and demand are both important, is where the confusion is coming from. What I am saying, and what we may also agree upon, is that if Amazing Spider-Man #300 and Spider-Man #1 had similar print runs, Amazing #300 would always be worth more. There is a far, far greater demand for that book, and every book Kevin cited as an example of demand outweighing what he viewed as a fairly plentiful supply. The reason I question whether or not we agree, is due to the fact that you equated the two books in two separate replies to Kevin76. And in one post you went so far as to say Spider-Man #1 also "would be a $XXX book". Also, I questioned why you referenced print run at all in regard to any of those books which are clearly among the most important first appearances of the last forty years. Especially Hulk #181. This is most likely where the disconnect occurred, because I'm proposing that there have been very few print runs in the existence of the medium which would create a supply exceeding the demand for the first appearance of Wolverine. I also took it a step further, and stated that supply is often of much less importance "in this hobby" because there are no keys with an outrageous supply in the multiple millions, thus rendering any discussion of such a hypothetical scenario pointless. I referred to the uselessness of the hypothetical scenario in both my first and second replies, yet we kept discussing it for some reason. I also clearly repeated in multiple posts that both supply and demand are important. However, like I've stated, there isn't enough supply to worry about when it comes to key first appearances(I can understand if you think that I'm wrong about this, but I'm not saying that supply doesn't ever matter in any situation - it's just not an important factor in this particular one). If this is a misunderstanding on my part, then I have caused us to repeat the same points back and forth for no good reason. Sorry about that. Oh well, at least I'm closing in on 100 posts now.

Demand exceeding supply. Are people printing copies in their basement? Is Marvel still printing them? The demand has exceeded the supply, and thus, the price rises. This isn't rocket surgery. Exactly what I'm telling you. So you are basically proving my point now. Because if that print run doesn't change things, then it certainly won't in regard to Legends #3.

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not. I said as long as there is demand for the book, try understanding what you've read. There is no demand for a Spider-Man 1 or an X-Men 1 Really? There's no demand for Todd McFarlane's Spiderman #1...? Fascinating! Okay, I agree with your sarcasm on this, but Spider-Man #1 is certainly not comparable with an important first appearance. I think this is what threw me in your original response to Kevin76. It's simply too much of a reach. That wasn't the point I was making (that it was comparable in importance.) The point is that, if Spiderman #1. which was the single highest selling comic book of 1990 (and, indeed, up to that point in the modern era), had a print run the same as Amazing Spiderman #300, it, too, would be a $XXX book. Spiderman #1 is a first issue Spiderman by the most popular artist to draw the character of all time. It is not without its merits. Contrary to Kevin's assertion that there is "no demand for Spiderman #1 or X-Men #1", there is tremendous demand for both of these books. There were 47 sales in the Copper section of Comics on eBay in the last month of X-Men #1, in various flavors, and 35 in the modern, using "X-Men #1 Lee" as the search string. Actually sold! There were 35+ "Spiderman #1 McFarlane" in all flavors, sold in the last two months, and when "McFarlane" is taken out, the number goes higher. There were 83 sales of Hulk #181, in all grades, in the last month on eBay. In other words....there were as many sales of X-Men #1 as there were Hulk #181 on eBay in the last month. The problem is, of course, that there are 8 million+ copies of X-Men #1 floating around, so the price isn't going to be high. But it would be a great mistake to claim there is "no demand" for those books. By contrast, there is no demand for Rom #36, which had two sales in the last three months. And, I'll point out again...both Hulk #181 and GSXM #1 were not considered "important first appearance issues" until well after they were produced...and NM #98 and BA #12 were ignored for literal decades. No, there is substantial demand for all of these books...but the supply is what determines their disparate values. Lots of demand + not as much supply = higher prices. I think we simply disagree on our thoughts regarding what makes a comic valuable. I'm always going to choose Amazing Fantasy #15 over Showcase #4 because the demand is so much greater. I love Showcase #4, but I'm strictly talking about $$$ here. You don't agree that an 800,000 print run Hulk #181 would sell for all kinds of crazy cash? That print run wouldn't stop it because the demand is there.

So how do you explain #361?

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist. Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me. RMA is on target. It is supply AND demand, not supply OR demand. Let me put it this way: What many of you consider to be a large print run, isn't. Yes, if we are talking about 10 million copies, that changes things. The print run on Legends #3 isn't high enough to matter if things play out the way they repeatedly have these last few years. I've said very clearly, from my very first reply, that both supply and demand matter. However, I'm willing to buy up books with a higher print run when I see that demand is there.

This is contrary to the basic laws of economics. What you are saying does not exist. Supply and demand are inseparable. They are two sides of the same coin. If you don't believe that, your argument is with the laws of economics, not me. This is where you are missing the truth which is right in front of you. Sometimes you have to throw out the manual and use common sense. You are a great proponent of logic and reason, so forget what you think is the right thing to say, and use those tools. I've sold many a Spawn #1 for more than cover price. Why? Not with that print run, right? I made a nice, conservative profit on a book that should not have risen in price based on the old chestnut you are trotting out. Of course supply and demand should both be taken into consideration, but when you see a familiar pattern repeating itself again and again under certain circumstances, I suggest trusting the evidence frequently laid out before you. I still think that Amazing Spider-Man #361 is an excellent example. Plenty of copies, but demand has driven movement on the price. To be honest, maybe Legends #3 is an even better example. Time will tell(although at current prices, we've already been told quite a bit).

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not. I said as long as there is demand for the book, try understanding what you've read. There is no demand for a Spider-Man 1 or an X-Men 1 Really? There's no demand for Todd McFarlane's Spiderman #1...? Fascinating! Okay, I agree with your sarcasm on this, but Spider-Man #1 is certainly not comparable with an important first appearance. I think this is what threw me in your original response to Kevin76. It's simply too much of a reach.

None of the books you mentioned had anything other than average print runs. That's why they are so expensive, while Spiderman #1, for example, is not. No, they are so expensive because they are first appearances and the major keys of their time. Right. Tastes great, less filling. Because, as everyone knows, if there were 10 million copies of Hulk #181 floating around, it would still sell for $X,XXX in 9.X grades. Right...? I see. So, supply is significantly less important than demand. Interesting. No, it is BOTH supply AND demand that determine value. Anyone...like you, and Kevin76...trying to claim that demand is more important than supply...or vice versa...doesn't have the whole picture, and is going to come to faulty conclusions. You are quite correct...they are not. When it comes to comic books, demand is the driving force behind all the major keys. It's the reason Marvels sell for more than DCs. It's the reason Spider-Man, even higher print run Bronze and Copper Spidey, sells for significantly more than lower print run but less desirable books from the same time period. I never said that demand was everything. In fact, I specifically mentioned fantasy scenarios like your "10 million copies of Hulk #181" changing the whole discussion. We don't live in that particular alternate universe though. In ours, an above average print run has very little impact on sales when the demand is high enough. For instance, double the print run on Hulk #181, and it would still be a top ten Bronze key. The demand is simply too great. I feel like you are punking me with this debate. There is a mountain of evidence which clearly demonstrates that unless we extend the parameters of the discussion to extreme degrees(35 cent price variants or some similar scenario where we are comparing 100 copies to 400,000 copies), demand is much more important than supply in the comic collecting community. Amazing Spider-Man #300, #361, et al., have proven this time and time again. I pre-ordered 100 copies of Amazing #361 back in the day. My grandmother saw that one coming(admittedly, she's always been market savvy), but back issue prices seem to be doing just fine.