VintageComics

It's hard to say because you have almost 2 decades of a market that has already been programmed to look for two different colors. As Bob just stated, many people didn't even realize that they were putting restored books into the same labels as unrestored books. There are also many other factors to take into account, one being that CBCS is the 2nd major company to enter the market with certification. But I do believe it would have been entirely different if they came out of the gate that way 20 years ago.

I think that Stan gave Kirby the issue to do, with Kirby not realizing it was going to be cancelled. I can't remember if specifically handing SS to Buscema or it was giving Kirby the last issue that was the 'final straw' but yeah, I am pretty sure that it was the Surfer in general that did it.

I think Stan gave it to Kirby to appease Kirby, who was ticked that Buscema was drawing the title. Something along those lines. Kirby's vision of the Surfer differed with Stan's and it was a bone of contention for Kirby.

I was going to go with soft / medium / firm but that is a perfect reply!

If you've ever studied the colon, you do.

Correct. And thank you for the correction.

Well, I'm also the 1st to say that the comic hobby is the least logical of the lot. Lots of emotions running higher in comics than other hobbies. But it is logical in the same way that the clock becomes split into fractions of seconds in races and even rare books have more than the 3 grades that comics had. Who is to say how much is enough?

Only the high grades! The masses can have the low grade copies for consumption!

So they covered their tracks because they were exposed by a public thread?

If you were grading items of ZERO value, you'd want as accurate a scale as possible, wouldn't you? That's why the scale went from $0.10 a comic for any copy (or half price if the cover was ripped) to 1-3-5 to 25 and 100 point scales that we have today. It's logical. Once you start conflating with values it becomes illogical. And just to be clear, I'm not pushing for a 100 point scale personally. I'm OK with it as is. At least for now. But it is a logical progression.

When grading the comic book the price has and should have nothing to do with the grade. Stop conflating the two.

The market would decide what it wants to pay. I've always argued (and have even had people put me on ignore because of this) that the grade should have no bearing on the value of a book. So if someone wants to pay multiples of a 9.7 (or a 9.6) to own a 9.8 let 'em. As long as the grades are 'correct'. You will have the same problems no matter what the grading scale is. Like it has been said, there have been 100 point grading scales already used in the past. Stephen Ritter still uses one (or used to - even as recently as a year or two ago I saw 8.7 and the such grades on his books). Coins also have qualities that do not include physical defects you can touch. I don't know the exact terminology but colors come into play. It's like anything else (and ironically what the discussion started on): People will become more proficient as they are exposed to it. In my opinion it NEVER should have - and I've said this for years as well. The technical grade should be related to physical condition with the paper grade independent of the numerical grade. I know a lot about the CGC grading system and I still don't understand why they factor in Paper Quality into the numerical grade. THAT is much more subjective than simply grading physical defects. Who cares? Back to the Dark Ages. You may as well propose keeping all books chained to walls.

Why is it insane? Didn't you read that some old school dealers already used to use a 100 point system? And how does it cause speculators to squeeze out more money?

No joke. The grade divisions have gone from a 3 point scale of 1-3-5 to a 25 point grading system because as values increase the disparity in price necessitates more grade divisions.

Yeah, it was more of a negative feeling about the discussion and not anger with you. Well, I don't know if I was the first but it just seems logical to me. But I'll accept your generous compliment.

I have for YEARS been suggesting duel grades for not only restored / OIG grade (as you put it) but also for Green qualified / universal More info is always better.

I was just typing out how annoying you were in the Beyonder thread and erased it because I didn't want to hurt your feelings. But I'll just let you know here that I erased it and regret it.

You are right; things do change. I was, and am, a strong supporter of the change on tape use as well as condemning the use of moving spine damage to the back cover using the same techniques used to remove spine roll. Both of these examples allowed people to game the CGC grading system for potential out-sized profits. If someone started a thread advocating either of these techniques for blue label treatment I believe the majority of board users would say, "Ridiculous!" In my eyes, this discussion is no different. Its talking about gaming the CGC grading system to increase profits by applying a largely unaccepted treatment. Harumph, I say! And this was the reaction that got me out of the discussion years ago because people started vilifying me personally rather than having a discussion about the topic. The discussion really has nothing to do with profits from anyone in this thread. I've had color touch removed from maybe 3 books every in 20 years. Maybe 4 - I can't remember and I doubt I'd start color touching books if the rules changed. I don't need to as it's not my business model. The discussion has everything to do with logic and reason and you may very well have less scraped covers if the books were all graded with the same color label and just the amount of color touch clearly notated on the label for everyone to see. It only sounds ridiculous to some because a) our hobby is a very sensitive one. People get greatly emotional about things in the hobby unlike other hobbies. b) we've already spent 20 years with a blue / purple label system If the system started with just a blue label, many people would likely be thinking the opposite: that introducing a purple label after 20 years is ridiculous. ------------------------------------------------------------ As a few other people reasoned when we had this discussion years ago, out there in the real world things are notated with words. Clear, delineated words. Words are sufficient to convey anything you want to convey. Going to 'dumbed down' systems always leaves larger gaps in communication and the coarse, dumbed down system of a different label color has left such a large communication gap that those who 'understand' the lingo better than others can exploit it. Long story short, if you want to stop scraping of books going to more words and more information and levelling the playing field of those scraping the books is the best way to do it. It's really the only way to do it, short of teaching everyone how to judge and see resto individually. ------------------------------------------------------------ And let me just finish that this is not me pushing for change. I'm indifferent. But if we're going to have the discussion, more info is always better than less.

do you not think theres also a stigma attached to retoration that will carry over regardless of the color of the label? Im all for assuming people are stupid and manipulatible, but that requires an big assumption of general stupidity. What I think you will see eventually (or would have seen had it been done from the start) is a much better price spread for all the books that fall along the spectrum from heavily restored to no resto, rather than a huge divide between restored books and unrestored books with most restored books being clumped closer together in price. It's just common sense that as you expose people to something they by nature learn more about it and become more accepting. That's not to say that people who want unrestored books will start buying restored books. It's to say that people who don't mind restored books will start paying more for books with less resto, leveling the market.

The stigma isn’t attached to the label. It’s attached to the restoration The different colored labels (in my opinion) have created an exaggerated difference in price between Purple and Blue labels. The market simply shunned Purple labels. This huge difference in price has allowed savvy buyers to who know their resto, to find books that can be unrestored effectively into blue labels. Buyers shunning Purple labels created this pricing divide and 2ndary market. If buyers hadn't shunned them, the price difference wouldn't have been as great and not as profitable to remove the resto. So nobody did anything wrong, but whenever there's a large difference in price in any market, someone is going to find a way to make a buck. I do believe that if all labels were the same color from the start (with color touch notations on blue labels and a distinct way of notating quantity of CT) people would have been forced to learn the resto market better, and therefore value them better, reducing the price gap and therefore preventing or at least reducing the 2ndary market of resto removal.

But they even though you made the mistake, they tried to work with you by not charging you the restocking fee for your own mistake. You omitted that important detail from your first post in an attempt to shame them. You also told them to go fist themselves when they didn't really do anything wrong. You made the mistake. Not them.

Interesting question.

Not the one you're going to: Hel (location) Actually, TwoPiece has it right.

For $200, Super creepy shows you liked as a kid!

I'm not sure if you were talking about me or not but there is no resentment from me about the discussion. The only resentment I might still hold is for those other old-timers who accused me of being a greedy, slimy person for seeing things the way Black_Adam does.