VintageComics

Some of us are angry because this thread is being hijacked into a pressing thread. Pressing is not the problem. It's a conflict of interest. At the very least it's a thread about perception. Which of course we know there are going to be whackadoos on both sides. Some people are going to apologize for CGC till they ate blue in the face and make excuses, no matter how evident the problems are. Others are going to use any opportunity they can to come up with any cockamamy conspiracy possible such as CGC adjusting grading standards to accept defects caused by pressing. Lets not forget the people that want to blame everything from Hurricane Sandy to recessed staples that happened nearly fifty years ago when the books were manufactured on pressing. I thought I was turning blue from the barbell being stuck on my chest.

The fact that a book as expensive as the Pacific Coast Hulk 1 has been resubbed many times tells me that the more expensive/rare/highly sought after a book is, the more likely it is that it'll have a "checkered" resub history. Combine that with your point about overgraded/overworked books and the astronomical rise in the prices of many key books, and you can only conclude that buyers will continue to get far less for their collecting dollar. If I had money that I couldn't afford to lose tied up in books, I'd be dumping like it's hot. A little data to support a rational argument. Here's a snapshot of the PC TOS run. These books were run through the ringer multiple times. High grade to start with, but that wasn't quite enough. Every squeeze was undertaken to maximize their monetary potential... Thanks for posting that. (thumbs u I've said this many times in the past, and I'll say it again in light of this clear illustration: pressing completely defeats the purpose of high grade collecting, or at least, it defeats the purpose of paying a premium for high grade books. Maybe CGC's new acquisition will accelerate the speed at which collectors grasp that fact, but I'm not holding my breath. But what are we really looking at here? 21 books cracked and resubmitted over a ten year period. 7 of which had no grade bump. 1 book had a two increment grade bump. The other 13 had a grade bump of only one increment. There is no proof that any of them were pressed (though we all assume that they were). This is really only a testament to two men with an obsession. The submitter, who wants the highest grades. And the compiler, who wants the smokingest gun. To me, this is merely a snapshot of what is going on at large. Pedigree books already in high grade being submitted up to 7 times. This group of books doesn't say much in and of itself, but it's a microcosm of how the game is played. I would say it's a marcrocosm. Doug and Brulato are obsessive about their grades in their own personal collections. They have the time and money to keep resubmitting and repressing their own books while they looked for those elusive 9.8 grades. Even the most risk-averse dealer is not going to submit their own books 3, 5 or 7 times. The picture on that chart is very far from the norm.

Pressing itself technically does not damage books that are healthy candidates but I can see spines splitting on unhealthy candidates that are brittle. If damage occurs, it usually happens through either poor handling at some point along the way or using a book that wasn't a good candidate - something not always apparent because people are not used to scrutinizing every book all the time. This is a post I made last week in the grading/resto forum that describes my experience with pressing and damage.

And this is exactly why I would rather pay for a premium service and have someone take their time than get a cheap rush job or have graders and encapsulators work long hours into the wee hours of the night. I generally believe you get what you pay for, over all.

You forgot the Plitch groin thrust damage. No, he didn't. He has added that particular move to his own personal arsenal and was trying to hide it by not mentioning it.

Yes, I much prefer your "normal" posts.

More or less. I already stated that if I ran a business that pressed books for people I wouldn't offer any sort of a guarantee against damage during the process. It's a risk, comics are too fragile and not made to any real exacting mechanical standards and the risk should be on the owner of the book making the decision to press the book and not the company doing the pressing. The only qualifier would obviously be if there is negligence involved (oops, your book was dropped or someone dropped a pizza slice on it). Since this sort of defect (the impacted staple) occurs on unpressed books and pressed books and because it it likely related to production, it can't possibly be the fault of just the press. So who do you go after for "damaging" the book? That's what the diagnostic tech in me says, anyway.

What is really neat is how the top of the staple is further indented than the bottom of the staple. I wonder how a press did that. Or it didn't and the top prong is just tighter than the bottom one from production. Again, you've lost track. This was presented as an example of a comic that can have an impacted staple and still garner a 9.6 from CGC. That staples are sometimes indented during the production process has no bearing on the examples of staple indentation from books pressed by CCG's new pressing service. You've got this picture magnified several times and some people can still barely see the "impacted" staple. I imagine in hand it's hardly even noticeable and may not prevent the book from garnering a 9.8, let alone a 9.6. Comics were not manufactured to exacting standards. If they were throw away magazines made for kids they are going to have inherent defects from production. Those defects are going to range in severity defending on whether the guy running the presses was flirting with the admin secretary or not. We can strain under microscopes and find all kinds of reasons why a book should not grade even a VG if we want to, but to the naked eye, at arms length I don't think a defect like this would even be caught by many people.

Try to follow along, Roy, with the information that's being presented. This is the White Mountain copy. I used to own it when it was in an old label, and still have a front cover scan. The substantial staple indentation is new for the new label resubmitted version. Now you can concoct a story about how the full moon exerted gravitational pull on the staple and caused the indentation. Still doesn't change the FF36 that I showed you. Or the increasing prevalence of high grade books being sold through certain venues that carry defects from pressing (and not just at the staples). Bob, it still doesn't change the fact that impacted staples happen on both pressed and unpressed books, fortifying the theory that the pressing is not the problem. Like I have said many times, pressing does damage some books but this is not a defect I would associate with pressing. It's a defect I would associate with production. The problem is in the book before the book gets pressed....and yes I will admit that pressing the book may make the problem worse but that's no different than packing a book with that potential problem in a tight stack and having the same defect occur without a press job (which it does).

Nothing personal man, I just thought the Litch groin bump was pretty funny. Oh, I know. Sean is one of the funniest guys I know. And I'm still right.

What is really neat is how the top of the staple is further indented than the bottom of the staple. I wonder how a press did that. Or it didn't and the top prong is just tighter than the bottom one from production.

What's the deal with that book? You don't see it? Stare for at least 10 minutes straight into Loki's face, and his eyes cross. That is weird how CGC pulled this off. JIM #91 is another book notorious for top staple problems.

- What did it look like before pressing? - In my opinion, it shouldn't merit a 9.8 Most wouldn't. It was from the press, which I took directly from the presser and submitted to CGC. So in line with what you're saying, I have to wonder, is CGC going to see recessed staples across the entire range of comics, as NOT a defect, simply because pressing can cause it? Wouldn't that be the safe business model? Obviously it raises some questions but... Can you imagine them pressing a book, recessing the staples, and then downgrading for it? Disastrous. You still do not know what happened to the book from the time it left your hands to the time it was placed within the CGC holder. It would have gone through multiple hands, multiple procedures and travelled many miles. Not saying it didn't happen during pressing (I have had damage happen during a pressing job to books - comics are fragile and personally, if I was a presser I'd never guarantee that something can't happen) but it isn't conclusive unless you were the one that put the book in the press and removed it. Yeah, Chuck you big liar. You have no idea. Haven't you heard of staple fairies? They bang on comic staples with their tiny fairy tinker hammers until they become recessed. Plus it might be that Paul Litch rams his groin into staples until they recess. Unless you have seen him not do this, you can't be certain that it isn't Litch hump recess syndrome. Bump for awesomeness. Bumped because I'm easy going and don't mind being the butt of Sean's jokes. And because I'm right.

I'm not denying it happens. I'm saying that pressing causing it is inconclusive. I've had plenty of books pressed in the past years and it just never stood out to me to see a recessed staple come back from a pressing job. On the other hand, I have made mental notes of that defect on books that I didn't believe to be pressed. The reason I remember them was because I try to remember which defects are allowed in which grades to teach myself how to grade better. So in my experience I have not seen it happen from a press job. Anyway, not a big deal either way. Just being a stickler with the details.

- What did it look like before pressing? - In my opinion, it shouldn't merit a 9.8 Most wouldn't. It was from the press, which I took directly from the presser and submitted to CGC. So in line with what you're saying, I have to wonder, is CGC going to see recessed staples across the entire range of comics, as NOT a defect, simply because pressing can cause it? Wouldn't that be the safe business model? Obviously it raises some questions but... Can you imagine them pressing a book, recessing the staples, and then downgrading for it? Disastrous. You still do not know what happened to the book from the time it left your hands to the time it was placed within the CGC holder. It would have gone through multiple hands, multiple procedures and travelled many miles. Not saying it didn't happen during pressing (I have had damage happen during a pressing job to books - comics are fragile and personally, if I was a presser I'd never guarantee that something can't happen) but it isn't conclusive unless you were the one that put the book in the press and removed it. Denial. Not just a river in Egypt. I just made a post earlier about accidents that can happen during pressing. I'm not denying anything. I just don't think it's conclusive that pressing did it. See my detailed post below in case you missed it.

You'll notice that in the pics namisgr posted the majority of time it's the top staple that is affected. Coincidence? I don't believe so. I've already seen that defect on books that were not pressed (mostly SA FF books, as mentioned). I believe it probably happens when a comic is sitting upright. The top step is under more stress than the bottom one as gravity tries to drop the interior pages out the side of the book from inside the cover. Remember, the interior pages are always trying to pull away from the spine to the right. I can see pressing possibly making it worse but the inherent weakness needs to be there for it to happen in a press in the first place.

Freaking elves. They need to be kept busy all year round with no vacation and no access to Santa's secret stash of booze!

This statement is 100% not true. Ditto. Actually, for the statement to be 100% not true, you would have to be suggesting that a correct statement would be "No art gets restored. US comic book collectors are the first to realize this." Exactly. The last time I was at the Met and MOMA, the curators were more than happy to let me know what pieces were being restored and therefore not viewable. This pansy approach to purity is pathetic. Dan Your statement that ALL art gets restored is not correct. I have a lot of artwork that has not been restored. I think there are probably more work that hasn't been restored than restored but that is a guess on my part. Fair enough. I think that a lot of work will be restored. Our perception of that work will always be our own. Dan Eventually, every piece of paper will need to be restored in order to preserve it. There is no way around it. Our hobby is just young enough for us to ignore that now but much like waste management and changing the landscape has an effect on the earth we live on, eventually (if we are around long enough) people's perceptions on restoration of comics will change just like it did for garbage and changing the landscape. I'm not equating the two, merely showing how our perception changes over time on even what seems the most obvious, most important things...let alone something as insignificant as comics.

- What did it look like before pressing? - In my opinion, it shouldn't merit a 9.8 Most wouldn't. It was from the press, which I took directly from the presser and submitted to CGC. So in line with what you're saying, I have to wonder, is CGC going to see recessed staples across the entire range of comics, as NOT a defect, simply because pressing can cause it? Wouldn't that be the safe business model? Obviously it raises some questions but... Can you imagine them pressing a book, recessing the staples, and then downgrading for it? Disastrous. You still do not know what happened to the book from the time it left your hands to the time it was placed within the CGC holder. It would have gone through multiple hands, multiple procedures and travelled many miles. Not saying it didn't happen during pressing (I have had damage happen during a pressing job to books - comics are fragile and personally, if I was a presser I'd never guarantee that something can't happen) but it isn't conclusive unless you were the one that put the book in the press and removed it.

As a 40 year FF collector I can state that the FF 51 and 38 above are two of the most infamous issues with naturally occurring indented staples. However the pressing process might very well exasperate the problem. God, thank you! I've been saying this for years...I often see it on FF books for whatever reason! Now I know that I'm not the only one.

It happens during pressing. I'll spare you the repeat posting, but I've already disclosed examples of staple indentation and color breaking horizontal creasing at the overhang on two books that I had pressed by the new head of the CCG pressing service. I also explained to you over dinner in Atlantic City the physical principle that leads to staple indentations during the pressing process. You seemed to understand it at the time. The fact that CGC will happily assign a 9.6 grade to a comic with an indented staple or a color breaking horizontal overhang crease provides financial incentive that supports pressing. I know we spoke about it bt I still believe that a lot happens between the time a book leaves your hands and the time it gets slabbed. That's why I don't believe that blaming it simply on a press job is conclusive. I can say that I've probably had 100's of books pressed and have never seen it on one of my books.

Yipes! Already been discussed in detail. That defect happens to plenty of books that are not pressed too. I've seen it many times, especially on FF's for some reason. The fact that the books were pressed is not conclusive for that reason. Can happen during shipping, handling, pressing, in the CGC holder. The jury rests.

that. Spektatin'

Will there be stickers applied to books that need a Classic Incorporation? Just askin'

I can't wait to see if it affects turnaround times. Mike!!